Just what is a witch anyway?

[TeaDidikai]

Cyrus the Elder

Why is this reminding me of the time I looked up "Practical joke" in my dictionary, and it said "See prank" and I looked up prank and it said "see practical joke" ninja

Your dictionary is crap. 3nodding  

[Cyrus the Elder]

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

Why is this reminding me of the time I looked up "Practical joke" in my dictionary, and it said "See prank" and I looked up prank and it said "see practical joke" ninja

Your dictionary is crap. 3nodding

Naw, twas just written by jerks ninja

Got a better one after that though.  

[TeaDidikai]

Cyrus the Elder

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

Why is this reminding me of the time I looked up "Practical joke" in my dictionary, and it said "See prank" and I looked up prank and it said "see practical joke" ninja

Your dictionary is crap. 3nodding

Naw, twas just written by jerks ninja

Got a better one after that though.

~snerk~

Did you hear the one about Bush suing Merriam Webster for placing his picture next to the word gullible?  

[Cyrus the Elder]

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

Why is this reminding me of the time I looked up "Practical joke" in my dictionary, and it said "See prank" and I looked up prank and it said "see practical joke" ninja

Your dictionary is crap. 3nodding

Naw, twas just written by jerks ninja

Got a better one after that though.

~snerk~

Did you hear the one about Bush suing Merriam Webster for placing his picture next to the word gullible?

No, no I did not, but that's bloody hilarious xd  

[TeaDidikai]

Cyrus the Elder

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

Why is this reminding me of the time I looked up "Practical joke" in my dictionary, and it said "See prank" and I looked up prank and it said "see practical joke" ninja

Your dictionary is crap. 3nodding

Naw, twas just written by jerks ninja

Got a better one after that though.

~snerk~

Did you hear the one about Bush suing Merriam Webster for placing his picture next to the word gullible?

No, no I did not, but that's bloody hilarious xd

Do you have a 2006 copy of their College edition?  

[Cyrus the Elder]

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

Why is this reminding me of the time I looked up "Practical joke" in my dictionary, and it said "See prank" and I looked up prank and it said "see practical joke" ninja

Your dictionary is crap. 3nodding

Naw, twas just written by jerks ninja

Got a better one after that though.

~snerk~

Did you hear the one about Bush suing Merriam Webster for placing his picture next to the word gullible?

No, no I did not, but that's bloody hilarious xd

Do you have a 2006 copy of their College edition?

Alas, no. Most of my dictionaries are rather old and need updating, unfortunately not much of an option until I pay off my damn debts emo  

[Diamond Leaf Clover]

TeaDidikai

Diamond Leaf Clover

So....would practices such as tarot and dowsing be considered witchcraft?

Tarot as a tradition stemmed from Christian tradition. In fact- there is an amazing system that uses the Tarot as a flash card-divination based on the Bible. Neat stuff. That said- it being a Christian-European tradition and not a Pre-Christian one, I'd argue that it can't even remotely be considered witchcraft as it wasn't a folk practice- it was a tool of the educated elite at it's inception. That isn't to say that it cannot become part of a witchcraft tradition by virtue of it's application as a tool.

Look at it this way- is cooking your food so you don't die from food born illness witchcraft in and of itself?

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Sorry, another question: if I were to pray to a god/goddess, would that be considered witchcraft, or would this be included in the traditions that already have their own names for such practices?

I never consider prayers to be witchcraft.

Cyrus the Elder

I'd be more inclined to say it wasn't necessarily witchcraft of itself, but exactly what you called it "a prayer".

3nodding

Diamond Leaf Clover

So if I were to do a 'ritual' (for lack of a better word) like, using incense, tools, etc, that would be more in the way of 'witchcraft' or would that still be considered 'prayer,' considering you are still doing what you were beforehand, just a bit more involved by using specific means? (Or did I just answer my own question?)

Ritual is not synonymous with witchcraft. I mean- Catholic Mass is ritual after all. Gnostic Mass is ritual too. That doesn't make them witchcraft. Nor would it automatically make it a prayer.

Ritual can include both or neither.

Cyrus the Elder

Hmm, it'd depend on the specifics to be honest. If it's just a petition to a god, or some such, I'd say it falls on the prayer spectrum. If it's meant to do something of its own accord, I'd say it's witchcraft.

But I'm probably not the best person to ask as I tend to have a somewhat...dodgy definition of what I would and would not consider witchcraft ninja

I'd be arguing that we're talking about three very different concepts- one of which can include both or neither of the other two.

For example, there are honorific rituals I participate in that have no prayers- and I don't practice witchcraft so...

Diamond Leaf Clover

By 'something of its own accord,' do you mean if I was trying to do something (sorry, that is horribly unspecific) and was asking a god to preside over what I was doing, then that would be witchcraft?

I'm not sure why that would be considered witchcraft myself.

Perhaps it would help if we knew what your tradition was?

Cyrus the Elder

Generally, I'm of the opinion that when the will is moved out of your hands, it ceases to be witchcraft. For instance, solely petitioning a deity to do something for you.

Interesting. Could you explain this a bit more?

I'm trying to sync up your understanding of witchcraft and mine and I don't think I can without more information.

If you had to give a quick definition of witchcraft off the top of your head that we could refine through discussion and debate- what would it be?

(Sorry, wish I knew how to address certain sections at a time. xp )
I didn't know that tarot came from Christian tradition...I learnt something new today! blaugh
Okay, I think I understand a little bit better (I think) about praying to the gods. Using a ritual does not automatically equal witchcraft, ritual does not automatically equal prayer. You can do a ritual without the use of prayer, and you can pray without the use of a ritual.
Did I get that right?

Argh, sorry. I don't know what my path would fall under in terms of tradition. sweatdrop I'm still trying to grasp basic terms and ideas, though I am interested in Kemeticism (is that a word, or is it just Kemetic?) and have started reading a link regarding the tradition from the link list. (I haven't gotten too far just yet-reading off the computer wreaks havoc with my eyes gonk ) At the moment, I don't give myself any kind of label, because I don't want to use the wrong label by mistake or offend people using the same name in case what I believe isn't actually what the name means.  

[Satrevi]

A witch is just another term for those practicing from the same source of power.  

[maenad nuri]

Areleklo

A witch is just another term for those practicing from the same source of power.

Which is?  

[Satrevi]

maenad nuri

Areleklo

A witch is just another term for those practicing from the same source of power.

Which is?

Magic. Why classify magic? Magic is life and life in magic with everything in between. As we age more/practice more. We then grow and mature more. Then we see more magic in our day to day lives. We all tap into the same source for magic at one point or another. So why get bogged down with details and definitions?  

[TeaDidikai]

Diamond Leaf Clover

(Sorry, wish I knew how to address certain sections at a time. xp )

The easy way is to highlight the text you're responding to with your mouse then click the "quote" button at the top of the window in the periwinkle frame.

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I didn't know that tarot came from Christian tradition...I learnt something new today! blaugh

The use of divination with gaming tools is pretty well established. I'll see what I can pull from some of my books later.

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Okay, I think I understand a little bit better (I think) about praying to the gods. Using a ritual does not automatically equal witchcraft, ritual does not automatically equal prayer. You can do a ritual without the use of prayer, and you can pray without the use of a ritual.
Did I get that right?

Correct. To add: You can also do a ritual without magic and you can do magic without ritual.

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Argh, sorry. I don't know what my path would fall under in terms of tradition. sweatdrop I'm still trying to grasp basic terms and ideas, though I am interested in Kemeticism (is that a word, or is it just Kemetic?) and have started reading a link regarding the tradition from the link list. (I haven't gotten too far just yet-reading off the computer wreaks havoc with my eyes gonk ) At the moment, I don't give myself any kind of label, because I don't want to use the wrong label by mistake or offend people using the same name in case what I believe isn't actually what the name means.

No worries. Usually we see Kemetic Orthodox folks running around on the forums. Let's see if we can flag one down and have them comment on magic within their tradition.

Areleklo

Magic. Why classify magic?

Because communication is useful. Because the transmutation a Roman Catholic Priest does is nothing like the use of Heron of Alexandria's Mechina, which has little to nothing to do with the cone of power that some witchcults use and has nothing in common with the blooding of runes that a Vitki does.

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Magic is life and life in magic with everything in between.

What a narrow view of magic you have. Don't get me wrong, if you're Harry Dresden, you're spot on- but this (alas) is the real world. I mean- ********, Necromancy?!

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As we age more/practice more. We then grow and mature more. Then we see more magic in our day to day lives.

Or not.

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We all tap into the same source for magic at one point or another.

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So why get bogged down with details and definitions?

Because accuracy is useful in communication and maybe, just maybe, your assertions are directly contradicted by numerous cosmologies.  

[Satrevi]

I never said anything about tapping into that dude. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Yeah, this narrow view of magic has really helped my power along so I must be doing something wrong huh? neutral You know, I'm just not going to talk to you if you keep putting words in my mouth. Knock it off. I never named the source.  

[maenad nuri]

Areleklo

I never said anything about tapping into that dude. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Yeah, this narrow view of magic has really helped my power along so I must be doing something wrong huh? neutral You know, I'm just not going to talk to you if you keep putting words in my mouth. Knock it off. I never named the source.

Your vagueness made it possible. If we all step into the same source, then Christian Witches are going into the same source as Neopagan witchcraft.

It's vague -- that is why have labels and definitions, to give us more nuance when we speak of such things.  

[Satrevi]

maenad nuri

Areleklo

I never said anything about tapping into that dude. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Yeah, this narrow view of magic has really helped my power along so I must be doing something wrong huh? neutral You know, I'm just not going to talk to you if you keep putting words in my mouth. Knock it off. I never named the source.

Your vagueness made it possible. If we all step into the same source, then Christian Witches are going into the same source as Neopagan witchcraft.

It's vague -- that is why have labels and definitions, to give us more nuance when we speak of such things.

I speak vague to get a feel of people. It's what I do. Just because i'm being vague doesn't mean words should be put into my mouth though. THat's one thing i'm not going to let start in discussion.  

[TeaDidikai]

Areleklo

I never said anything about tapping into that dude. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Because you're making claims about magic stemming from the same source. YHVH is a source of magic for his followers.

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Yeah, this narrow view of magic has really helped my power

Did it give you the extra four X.P. for the class? Or was it just a story feature?

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along so I must be doing something wrong huh? neutral

Wrong? No. But surely not complete.

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You know, I'm just not going to talk to you if you keep putting words in my mouth. Knock it off. I never named the source.

I'm not terribly concerned if you don't talk to me. It won't prevent me from commenting really.

Perhaps instead of being upset about being criticized, you could examine the flaw in your statement I pointed out.

You said "Why classify magic?" I told you why. Because it helps with communication. It's the difference between saying "I'm calling down Moloch" and "I'm tapping into the Supernal Seals" and "I'm blooding the Elder Futhark".
You said "We all tap into the same source for magic at one point or another. " I said ******** NO. The transmutation that the RCC does comes from YHVH. I don't tap into YHVH. Why did you make that generalization?

You said magic is life. Well- this isn't the case. Magic is also death- as is evidenced by necromancy, the basic idea of the Lord of the Wica being the Gate Keeper of the realm of the Dead etc.

If you want to say Magic includes life, that's fine. But don't misrepresent magic and life as being synonymous.