Predestination

[Samsoonie]

Fushigi na Butterfly

Samsoonie

Rosary16

I think God would very much love to see all of us in Heaven, but He did give us free will and if we choose not to know Him, love Him and serve Him, that's our choice. We're just choosing Hell if we do that. Basically, God says, "You can believe in me or not, but if you don't want anything to do with me, that's fine but you have been warned."

what of the people who haven't heard the word? There are people who haven't been given a "choice" what of them?

The Bible has this to say about your question: From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

My own belief (and I could be wrong) follows this logic: that Jesus commands us to love God and to love one another. Loving God is following His commands. You can follow God's commands without realizing it was God who commanded them, and love your neighbor as Jesus loves us without knowing Jesus ever existed. Separately from that, humankind needs a Savior, because we are sinful, and can't atone for our own sins. The fact that Jesus died, whether you know it happened or not, is the saving act. Those who have heard, however, have the obligation to decide to follow Him or not. Those who haven't get judged on whether or not they follow the two great Commandments Jesus gave.

This is just my own interpretation of course.

but then why bother being a Christian? if all we have to do is be good people then there really is no point of Christianity 'cause it says that Jesus is the only way for people to get to God
haha dont worry about it I'm not going to ask you to figure it out or anything I don't think its possible to figure out how God works  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

We are Christians because we have heard the Good News and have responded to it. What about the man living in the bush who had never met a missionary, who's never heard of Jesus or His salvation before? He could still live by God's standards, serving in Jesus' name without realizing it.

Galatians 5:22

But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness ...

Anyone with these qualities is being inspired by the Holy Spirit, whether they have heard of Jesus or not.  

[nippa!]

Hmmmm... I like that idea Fushigi na Butterfly.

I've always wondered though what creates a persons character - you know, were we born who we are or did experience create who we are? I can account for a lot about me by my experiences, like my fears and why i react to certain situations in certain ways and why i think certain things. But what makes a person who they are?

If free will is the ability to make our own choice, what makes us to come the decisions that we do? Do we make our choices because of our past experiences or because of who we are? In which case, what determines these two factors? Our past experiences can be influenced by other peoples choices so who controls these? And where does our character come from? Were we designed to make the decisions we make, therefore God designed us to reject him? Or are we created by our experiences, which ultimately are controlled by God, and so we are again not making our own choice?

This asks the question, do we have free will or are we simply puppets with the illusion of free-will because we are created by god whether it is through the circumstances we are put in or how we were originally designed? Do we really have control over our own choices?

Oh and i asked my pastor about whether Judas went to hell ages ago and he said that although at first glance it would seem that Judas repented and went to heaven, somewhere in the old testement it calls Judas a name which means he can't go to heaven (am very sorry that i can't remember the name), so the scene in which he seems to repent it could be argued that he knew that what he had done was wrong and tried to put it right physically by throwing away the money but that he killed himslef because he never prayed to God saying sorry and didn't accept his forgiveness.

Anyway, test everything i say. I'm not very good with coming up with answers, i always seem to find more questions confused  

[Ixor Firebadger]

While we are somewhat molded by our circumstances, we still have ample choice how we respond to them. Sometimes we feel we have no choice, but we do. Mostly, we can rise up to meet our challenges or we can let them drag us down. We can choose to retaliate in anger when someone betrays or we can choose to love them anyway. Or we can choose to just not interact with that person any more than necessary. We can choose to blame God for our hardships or we can trust that He has a plan for us. He doesn't program us to accept or reject Him once we've heard of Him. We have free will and that's entirely our own choice. He already knows what choice we will make but it is still our choice.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

nippa!

I've always wondered though what creates a persons character - you know, were we born who we are or did experience create who we are?

Yes. Some of our personality traits are inherited, to some extent (we're more prone to certain reactions and emotion), but alot of it does have to do with our environment. It's the age-old debate of nature vs. nurture. Is the alcoholic an alcoholic because his parents were alcoholics, or because he grew up in an alcoholic home? Probably both. But if you remove one of those things, the likelihood that that person will become an alcoholic decreases by about 50%. My entire family on my mom's side are addicts (mostly substances (including nicotine) and alcohol, but also gambling). I spent half my life in that environment, and the other half of my life in a much better one. Certainly, I have to be careful, because I am already predisposed to develop addictions (and I'm fairly certain it's why I'm a "sensation-seeking" personality- I love doing things just for the thrill, a common trait of individuals with dependence issues), but the healthier environment I moved to allowed me to pretty much overcome that. Luckily for me, I got the hand dealt to me that requires much more choice in the matter than for most other people. I stick to being a love addict rather than a nicotine/crack/alcohol/etc. addict. 3nodding I find that being fiercely loyal to my loved ones is much more rewarding in the end.

But take any disease. You can be born with a predisposition for blood clots (like, again, I have a 50-50 chance of, because of a genetic thing my dad has), but smoking and eating unhealthy foods is going to increase your risk of actually suffering. It's half genes and half environment, and you have the free will to decide what you like, using the cards that God has dealt you.

And I'm gonna stop, cuz I have the feeling I'll end up writing my thesis all over again in here. sweatdrop  

[Priestley]

Fushigi na Butterfly

But take any disease. You can be born with a predisposition for blood clots (like, again, I have a 50-50 chance of, because of a genetic thing my dad has), but smoking and eating unhealthy foods is going to increase your risk of actually suffering. It's half genes and half environment, and you have the free will to decide what you like, using the cards that God has dealt you.

It's funny, because I was thinking about your example as if it were a poker game. You can't predict what cards you'll be dealt from a deck of infinite size, you can only measure the strength of your cards and make your decisions based on that strength.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Exactly. 3nodding  

[Priestley]

Um, why does my post quote nippa! when I never quoted her? Did someone edit my post?  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Priestley

Um, why does my post quote nippa! when I never quoted her? Did someone edit my post?

It looks like some of the quote tags got deleted somehow by accident. You can still see you were trying to quote me and not her.  

[Xandris]

Fushigi na Butterfly

Priestley

Um, why does my post quote nippa! when I never quoted her? Did someone edit my post?

It looks like some of the quote tags got deleted somehow by accident. You can still see you were trying to quote me and not her.

All fixed. mrgreen  

[The_Cursed_Phoenix]

Well here's what my pastor said

Curses Pastor

The answer is we dont know the reason is thats heading towards the mystery of God and thats the wrong way the go

so there you have it i didnt have much of answer so theres my pastors  

[Priestley]

Curse-of-the-Phoenix

Well here's what my pastor said

Curses Pastor

The answer is we dont know the reason is thats heading towards the mystery of God and thats the wrong way the go

so there you have it i didnt have much of answer so theres my pastors

Wow, what a telling statement.

Your pastor basically said "I don't know. You'd better stay away. It's dangerous to ask questions". He wants you to stay in the dark and is preventing your growth.

Get a new pastor.  

[The_Cursed_Phoenix]

Priestley

Curse-of-the-Phoenix

Well here's what my pastor said

Curses Pastor

The answer is we dont know the reason is thats heading towards the mystery of God and thats the wrong way the go

so there you have it i didnt have much of answer so theres my pastors

Wow, what a telling statement.

Your pastor basically said "I don't know. You'd better stay away. It's dangerous to ask questions". He wants you to stay in the dark and is preventing your growth.

Get a new pastor.

Im not getting a new pastor hes not preventing my growth the bible says nothing about predestination his answer is the truth we dont know if predestination exist i didnt answer that to my fullest though his daughter then added "God knows the outcome of what your choices will be he knows what will be and what may be and what will not be" Predestination is determined by the bigest choice in life will you become a christian.  

[Priestley]

Curse-of-the-Phoenix

Priestley

Curse-of-the-Phoenix

Well here's what my pastor said

Curses Pastor

The answer is we dont know the reason is thats heading towards the mystery of God and thats the wrong way the go

so there you have it i didnt have much of answer so theres my pastors

Wow, what a telling statement.

Your pastor basically said "I don't know. You'd better stay away. It's dangerous to ask questions". He wants you to stay in the dark and is preventing your growth.

Get a new pastor.

Im not getting a new pastor hes not preventing my growth

That is effectively what he did by what he said.

Remember, your ultimate authority in matters of the Bible is the Bible: the word of God in the spirit of God. Do not automatically assume that pastors are a better authority than what you yourself can find in it.

Curse-of-the-Phoenix

the bible says nothing about predestination his answer is the truth

To use scripture that Monergism quoted in an earlier post in the thread, read Ephesians 1:4-10, specifically 1:5.

It may be true that he does not know, but now you know better. Perhaps you ought to educate him. Perhaps it might prompt him to reexamine his position.

Curse-of-the-Phoenix

we dont know if predestination exist

Now you do.

Curse-of-the-Phoenix

i didnt answer that to my fullest though his daughter then added "God knows the outcome of what your choices will be he knows what will be and what may be and what will not be"

Did she provide scripture? If not, ask her for some.

Curse-of-the-Phoenix

Predestination is determined by the bigest choice in life will you become a christian.

By implying freedom of choice, you are arguing against predetermination/predestination.  

[The_Cursed_Phoenix]

...I got nothing i give up but i refuse to get a new pastor he was wrong about one thing in the bible so what if every church exiled pastors for being wrong about one thing in the bible then pastors would be a thing of the past.