Snape: Good or Evil?

[Aci Dixinic]

i_heart_ron

and, the OED gives some discouraging information on Snape:

Quote:

[a. ON. sneypa to outrage, dishonour, disgrace (Icel. sneypa to chide, snub, Norw. sn�ypa to withdraw, draw in, pinch, etc., MSw. and Sw. sn�pa to castrate).]

interesting, no?

Interesting, yes.
Laughs at all the fangirls' horror.
rofl rofl rofl
Snape the Eunuch.
Gives a whole new meaning to "Severus", doesn't it?  

[ode[2]sokka]

I really probably ought to go back and make sure this point hasn't been made before, but there's five pages and I'm more than a little distracted.

If this has been made before, well, ignore me.


Going back to the Unbreakable Vow scene upon which the conclusion of whether or not Snape is evil seems to be based, it has become horribly apparant to me that on very important little part is being completly overlooked by nearly everyone.

Quote:

"And should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not pull away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to preform?"

~HBP, US Hardcover Edition, pg 36

Now...what is with those little parathesis? Most writers know that using them is in very bad taste- particularly now. They've gone out of fashion, and I can probably count on my fingers the number of times JKR has used them.

Why now? Is it because the information is supposed to be dismissed as excessive? Something that we think is easily dismissed.

That's what I'm inclined to believe since most readers have been taught since elementary school that things in parthasis can be easily dismissed. It's a fundamental writer's trick of using puncuation to give the illusion one needs to draw the reader to or away from a specific plot point.

Up until this point in time, I think that Severus was very much in control of the situation. He was able through some means- probably guesswork from what he knows about the personalities of the two sisters- able to steer the conversation into realms where he wanted it to go. Places he could look good without actually lieing. He'd have to be good at that to spy on Voldemort, wouldn't he?

He loses that control the moment he is asked to make an unbreakable vow. If he makes it he will be forced, in all liklihood, to do something he would much rather not have to do. If he doesn't make it then Bellatrix will go running back to her master happily reporting that Severus is on Dumbledore's side because he refuses to kill him.

His handtwitched when he guessed, or appeared to guess, what Narcissa was asking him to do. He could not pull away because that would ruin everything he and Dumbledore had planned, but staying would mean placing his own life in danger.

Now, whether or not this means that he and Dumbledore had planned Severus to kill him I don't know. That conclusion can be drawn when one takes into account that Dumbledore seems to think Snape's life important enough to lie to Harry when he's told him 'everything' (more on this later when I don't have a class I need to be to).

Either way, it appears to me that Snape was reluctant to kill Dumbledore, and I think that says quite a lot about him on it's own.  

[Aci Dixinic]

RegulusofSlytherin

Quote:

"And should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not pull away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to preform?"

~HBP, US Hardcover Edition, pg 36

He loses that control the moment he is asked to make an unbreakable vow. If he makes it he will be forced, in all liklihood, to do something he would much rather not have to do. If he doesn't make it then Bellatrix will go running back to her master happily reporting that Severus is on Dumbledore's side because he refuses to kill him.

His handtwitched when he guessed, or appeared to guess, what Narcissa was asking him to do. He could not pull away because that would ruin everything he and Dumbledore had planned, but staying would mean placing his own life in danger.

I have put a couple of your sentences in bold, Reggie, that neatly summarise my point:
Snape doesn't necessarily flinch because he somehow, against all probability, guesses that the vow will be about killing Dumbledore. He just flinches because he's Snape and Snape doesn't like being bound to anything. Look how he was about being in James's debt. He's not too good a sport about that sort of thing. So it would make sense that he would be reluctant to put himself in a situation where he is obligated, on pain of death, to do someone else's wishes.
He's just Snape.  

[Panda Chi]

RegulusofSlytherin

Quote:

"And should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not pull away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to preform?"

His handtwitched when he guessed, or appeared to guess, what Narcissa was asking him to do. He could not pull away because that would ruin everything he and Dumbledore had planned, but staying would mean placing his own life in danger.

I can understand where you're coming from with this, and it's a good argument. However, you would think that Snape would at least try to lie his way out of this before agreeing the kill the one person that he truely serves, wouldn't you? Even if he did fail to get out of it by lying and Bellatrix did run off to report that Snape was a spy, I think that killing off Dumbledore would ruin their plans more then have Snape lose his cover. Especially if Dumbledore didn't tell anyone about it, because now - not only is Dumbledore dead - but even if Snape is a good guy, no one is going to believe him.

For me that quote tells my that Snape didn't want to kill Dumbledore, which is totally and completely understandable. Dumbledore was the only person that truely trusted Snape. It would be hard to kill the one person who trusts you even if you didn't truely serve him. I've always felt that Snape accepted to do the Vow because he was obligated, weather he wanted to or not.

(Btw, sorry for such a late reply, I haven't been gaia-ing a lot lately. x.x

 

[Panda Chi]

Acidic Cynic

RegulusofSlytherin

Quote:

"And should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not pull away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to preform?"

~HBP, US Hardcover Edition, pg 36

He loses that control the moment he is asked to make an unbreakable vow. If he makes it he will be forced, in all liklihood, to do something he would much rather not have to do. If he doesn't make it then Bellatrix will go running back to her master happily reporting that Severus is on Dumbledore's side because he refuses to kill him.

His handtwitched when he guessed, or appeared to guess, what Narcissa was asking him to do. He could not pull away because that would ruin everything he and Dumbledore had planned, but staying would mean placing his own life in danger.

I have put a couple of your sentences in bold, Reggie, that neatly summarise my point:
Snape doesn't necessarily flinch because he somehow, against all probability, guesses that the vow will be about killing Dumbledore. He just flinches because he's Snape and Snape doesn't like being bound to anything. Look how he was about being in James's debt. He's not too good a sport about that sort of thing. So it would make sense that he would be reluctant to put himself in a situation where he is obligated, on pain of death, to do someone else's wishes.
He's just Snape.

That's also a really good point, I didn't think of that. =O

 

[Aci Dixinic]

Thanks. smile  

[i_heart_ron]

Can I HIGHLY recommend that everyone go read this?  

[Aci Dixinic]

Another essay?! You are a machine!!! How do you find time to find them all?
I will read it later I promise but right now I have just read three HP essays so I have exausted my supply of 'interest' for the day.  

[Panda Chi]

i_heart_ron

Can I HIGHLY recommend that everyone go read this?

Oy. Essays. I never read other people's essays for some reason. Oh well, I'll make an exception.

 

[i_heart_ron]

Panda Chi

i_heart_ron

Can I HIGHLY recommend that everyone go read this?

Oy. Essays. I never read other people's essays for some reason. Oh well, I'll make an exception.

Please do! It's the greatest rebuttal to the Snape-is-evil kids I've yet come across.  

[Panda Chi]

i_heart_ron

Panda Chi

i_heart_ron

Can I HIGHLY recommend that everyone go read this?

Oy. Essays. I never read other people's essays for some reason. Oh well, I'll make an exception.

Please do! It's the greatest rebuttal to the Snape-is-evil kids I've yet come across.

Really? >_>; (Snape-is-evil kids? *ahem*)

Okee. A couple of things that I'm going to point out about this essay before I start typing out arguments against it. First off; it still doesn't answer my question of why Dumbledore wouldn't tell someone in the Order. Everyone's still going to think he's evil. I don't see how they'll possibly ever believe him again after he killed Dumbledore. You'd think he'd at least tell someone to start planning a head about what they're going to do after Dumbledore's gone, concidering Dumbledore is probably the absolute most important factor of the Order.

Secondly; she makes a lot of assumptions. Like she assumes that the spell that Snape hit him with, where he slashed at the air and Harry feels a white-hot whiplike something hit him across the face and is slammed backwards into the ground, as a simple slap or a punch. Well. I thought it would be more like as it's described. A white-hot whiplike something hit him and slammed him into the ground. I've never known a slap to be whiplike or 'white-hot', let alone have it slam you into the ground. But that's just me. >_>;

 

[[Ernie]]

I find it extremely hard to believe that Voldemort would trust Snape enough to tell him about "The Plan". He seems like a very untrusting person, unlike Dumbledore. Voldemort is not one to give people second chances, unless he knows said second chances will profit him greatly (ex: Giving Wormtail a second chance since Wormtail was the only DE who came back to help Voldy-poozle return to his body).

So, I doubt Snape was told by Voldemort of "The Plan". The only reason I can think for him pretending he knew was to get one of the sisters to say what it was so he could find out, as Bellatrix and most likely Narcissa knew Occlumency.

As for that essay, there are many a point I'd like to refute in it, in this thread if that's alright. So I'll get to that in my next post.  

[[Ernie]]

All quotes not identified are from the essay i_heart_ron linked to us.

Quote:

Snape's job for Voldemort is to spy on Dumbledore.

Um, no. Snape's job was to be a spy at Hogwarts. Dumbledore played a large role, yes, but the author is forgetting about Le Boy Who Lived attending the school.

Quote:

Why would Snape need to stay at Hogwarts then?

Because there are other high-ranking members from the Order there. Professor McGonagall, for instance.

And, of course, HARRY POTTER, y'know, the kid Voldemort has been hunting since before Harry's birth.

Quote:

Shouldn't he be more concerned about Draco not being able to do what Voldemort has ordered him to do?

If Draco is expelled, it means he cannot carry out his orders, since he kind of won't be at the school to get to Dumbledore.

Quote:

If Snape was indeed afraid of death, in the same way the other DEs and even Voldemort was

I'd just like to point out that it was never stated that ALL the other DEs were afraid of death. Panda Chi's right, s/he does make many assumptions.

Quote:

But really, why not a Cruciatus Curse?

Because he had stopped other DEs from using the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. He knew they did not have the time nor the priviledge of doing that.

Quote:

Why just a big magical slap in the face?

As Panda Chi said, that ain't a slap. Slaps aren't 'white-hot'. Sounds more like some sort of small fireball or something.  

[ode[2]sokka]

Acidic Cynic

RegulusofSlytherin

Quote:

"And should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not pull away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to preform?"

~HBP, US Hardcover Edition, pg 36

He loses that control the moment he is asked to make an unbreakable vow. If he makes it he will be forced, in all liklihood, to do something he would much rather not have to do. If he doesn't make it then Bellatrix will go running back to her master happily reporting that Severus is on Dumbledore's side because he refuses to kill him.

His handtwitched when he guessed, or appeared to guess, what Narcissa was asking him to do. He could not pull away because that would ruin everything he and Dumbledore had planned, but staying would mean placing his own life in danger.

I have put a couple of your sentences in bold, Reggie, that neatly summarise my point:
Snape doesn't necessarily flinch because he somehow, against all probability, guesses that the vow will be about killing Dumbledore. He just flinches because he's Snape and Snape doesn't like being bound to anything. Look how he was about being in James's debt. He's not too good a sport about that sort of thing. So it would make sense that he would be reluctant to put himself in a situation where he is obligated, on pain of death, to do someone else's wishes.
He's just Snape.

Bold is good, so I did the same ^^;.

It isn't against all probability. Snape is not only an accomplished Occlumence/Leglimence, but also it's the next logical thing for Narcissa to ask. *I* could have told you that was next on her list the first time I read it and I'm pretty dense.

You are right though. He doesn't like being in someone's debt. At all. Snape needs control.  

[Panda Chi]

[Ernie]

I find it extremely hard to believe that Voldemort would trust Snape enough to tell him about "The Plan". He seems like a very untrusting person, unlike Dumbledore. Voldemort is not one to give people second chances, unless he knows said second chances will profit him greatly (ex: Giving Wormtail a second chance since Wormtail was the only DE who came back to help Voldy-poozle return to his body).

So, I doubt Snape was told by Voldemort of "The Plan". The only reason I can think for him pretending he knew was to get one of the sisters to say what it was so he could find out, as Bellatrix and most likely Narcissa knew Occlumency.

As for that essay, there are many a point I'd like to refute in it, in this thread if that's alright. So I'll get to that in my next post.

He wouldn't necessarily need to be told by Voldemort, specifically. He could possibly have figured it out somehow else. I doubt Snape would bind himself so heavily into doing something if he didn't know what it was.

Also, I believe that Voldemort does think that trusting Snape is profitable to him. Snape's only spying on the Order. Snape as a spy is probably about as important to Voldemort as it is for Dumbledore.

And thank you for pointing those facts in that essay. Now I don't have to do it. =D