A few questions about stones and gems.

[deito]

I know that, I just don't like it when I prove peoples points.  

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

For me, it depends on the crystal. And to be honest- I'm not all that attracted to "crystals" but I am attracted to some stones.

I don't have ones I use for personal use on a regular basis.
I find them handy tool at times or to give to people, I never have more then a handful and if I do then it is because they will be shortly given away to those why may be in need of them.

My mother used to say that stones would follow me home as she would find so many of them under my bed and about the house, my daughter is the same way she has started her own collection in her room.

TeaDidikai

ShadowSharrow

Personally I would associate hematite with blood rather then water and use it in relations to that.
Hematite/hemaglobin is the mnemonic I used for it.

Iron iron everywhere and not a drop to drink!

More like iron iron everywhere but not a drop for ink biggrin

TeaDidikai

I've heard this and am beginning to think it is the most common of explanations.

That is of my own kenning over the hears, what I understand to a point.
Then again I did date a theoretical physicist who was doing this post doc when I was still a teen ( and working in a university ) and had many interesting conversations about the nature of partials and engery forums both with him and his prof. It's an area I still have an interest in and read for fun esp stuff in relations to the hermetic laws. Cabots science of witchcraft deal with them a little to which was intresting.

TeaDidikai

I don't completely agree with it- if only because it doesn't seem to account for sensitivities. It might not be completely invalid, but it seems there is an aspect of explanation that is missing.

How so ?
and what do you think is missing ?

TeaDidikai

What gage would you use to measure such limits?

I don't think magical will can break the laws of nature, work with them, bend them but not break them.

 

[patch99329]

deito

And that is how my will was broken and my self esteem churned to butter. Bravo, Tea, bravo.

neutral

Anyway, I never really 'got' crystals.
I just think they're pretty xD My nan does crystal healing and ever since I was REALLY little she's talked about vibrations and them being alive.

Perhaps it's because I don't get her reasoning behind them. I'm not an animist, I find too many things to question.
I believe living things including plants have spirits though.  

[TeaDidikai]

deito

I know that, I just don't like it when I prove peoples points.

What points do you think you proved?

ShadowSharrow

I don't have ones I use for personal use on a regular basis.
I find them handy tool at times or to give to people, I never have more then a handful and if I do then it is because they will be shortly given away to those why may be in need of them.

I don't do well with fragile things. Crystals get knocked, chipped, broken... Same with glass.

Quote:

My mother used to say that stones would follow me home as she would find so many of them under my bed and about the house, my daughter is the same way she has started her own collection in her room.

That's sweet. 4laugh


[quote
More like iron iron everywhere but not a drop for ink biggrin Ohhh... wonderful play on words.

The quills, the iron based dyes... very punny.

Quote:

How so ?
and what do you think is missing ?

Well, as carbon based lifeforms with more or less similar biological functions (compared to other creatures on the face of the planet), there isn't a whole lot I have seen that explains certain people's reactions to some stones.

It also doesn't explain the differences that can be seen between cultural traditions.

It seems like it is missing a component that isn't easy to put into words.

Quote:

I don't think magical will can break the laws of nature, work with them, bend them but not break them.

There's a Pirates line in here... about rules and guidelines...  

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

Well, as carbon based lifeforms with more or less similar biological functions (compared to other creatures on the face of the planet), there isn't a whole lot I have seen that explains certain people's reactions to some stones.

Humans change themselves and their environment that and their 'will' to me makes them different.

Also I don't believe that everyone engery is exactly the same, everyone has their own, meh I guess smell/flavor is how I find it and even then it can be in different states of flux.

TeaDidikai

It also doesn't explain the differences that can be seen between cultural traditions.

Well yarrow from here is different from yarrow form canada which is different from yarrow from new mexico the same way hydrangeas differ due to the soil and conditions and the same applies to parts of the earth not just what grows in it.

There are differing types of hematite and maybe the hematite from one area has different effect then hematite from a different place.

Also cultures were all orginally tribal to an extent that is genetically.
You can get people in a place where none of them eat cucumber as it to them tastes awful and so they tell the generations that come after do not eat that it is awful. Another example of this would be the genetic lack of tolerance for alcohol among asain people, those with the genetic lack of tolerance lack the enzymes to break down alcohol, so who is to say that does not apply to other food, herbs, insenses and stones/crystals ect.

TeaDidikai

It seems like it is missing a component that isn't easy to put into words.

I have a take on it but it end up coming out all startrek shield tech when I try explaining it.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

I don't think magical will can break the laws of nature, work with them, bend them but not break them.

There's a Pirates line in here... about rules and guidelines...

More 'Wryd sisters' to my mind,

Gytha Ogg

When you get a long in the craft you come to learn the rule about the rules, that is if you are gonna break'em , break'em good and hard.

But dealing with the fall out and consequences of that is as far as I know not pretty, really who wants to have shifted to another parallel dimension or to do a Hal Jordan and remake the universe over to fit your 'wants'.  

[TeaDidikai]

ShadowSharrow

Humans change themselves and their environment that and their 'will' to me makes them different.

Will involves intent though- something that may or may not be present.

Quote:

Also I don't believe that everyone engery is exactly the same, everyone has their own, meh I guess smell/flavor is how I find it and even then it can be in different states of flux.

Which on a personal level makes sense (I use "shape"). However- the general theory doesn't really account for this.

Is the place where the theory breaks down. A pound of NaCl over here is the same as it is over there and can have very different effects and roles within a culture.

Quote:

Also cultures were all orginally tribal to an extent that is genetically.
You can get people in a place where none of them eat cucumber as it to them tastes awful and so they tell the generations that come after do not eat that it is awful. Another example of this would be the genetic lack of tolerance for alcohol among asain people, those with the genetic lack of tolerance lack the enzymes to break down alcohol, so who is to say that does not apply to other food, herbs, insenses and stones/crystals ect.

Which may be a solution to the "energetic" argument.

But it doesn't function such because of "energy" and thus usually isn't addressed.

Quote:

I have a take on it but it end up coming out all startrek shield tech when I try explaining it.

Actually, that isn't unreasonable. Were you thinking Borg and rotating field frequencies?

Quote:

More 'Wryd sisters' to my mind,

Gytha Ogg

When you get a long in the craft you come to learn the rule about the rules, that is if you are gonna break'em , break'em good and hard.

But dealing with the fall out and consequences of that is as far as I know not pretty, really who wants to have shifted to another parallel dimension or to do a Hal Jordan and remake the universe over to fit your 'wants'.

I need to reread that book. It's been ages.

I was thinking of Moving Pictures the other day and I almost quoted the "Loose thinking about magic" paragraph.  

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

ShadowSharrow

Humans change themselves and their environment that and their 'will' to me makes them different.

Will involves intent though- something that may or may not be present.

Quote:

Even subconsciously ?

TeaDidikai

Is the place where the theory breaks down. A pound of NaCl over here is the same as it is over there and can have very different effects and roles within a culture.

But sea salt is different to rock salt so I don't it as the same as saying NaCl.

As for the difference I think it either is due to a people's make up genetically and engertically effecting how they interact with something and ergo use it, plus lore passed down which has a reinforcing effect and then a resonating effect for those people.

Which will lead me off into wildmagic rambling if I am not careful.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

I have a take on it but it end up coming out all startrek shield tech when I try explaining it.

Actually, that isn't unreasonable. Were you thinking Borg and rotating field frequencies?

Pretty much along those lines.

 

[TeaDidikai]

ShadowSharrow

Even subconsciously ?

Before I answer- are you speaking of the subconscious or unconscious mind?

I don't want to assume one when you mean the other.

Quote:

But sea salt is different to rock salt so I don't it as the same as saying NaCl.

My understanding is that sea salt is halite with other minerals left behind after evaporation.

However- in such a situation, it would account for the affect of the other minerals, but would not account for NaCl for people in different parts of the world.

Quote:

As for the difference I think it either is due to a people's make up genetically and engertically effecting how they interact with something and ergo use it, plus lore passed down which has a reinforcing effect and then a resonating effect for those people.

There a bit of a gap here. If we are working of "energetic resonance" as the source of effects, where does Will come in?

Quote:

Which will lead me off into wildmagic rambling if I am not careful.

Oh? Do tell?  

[patch99329]

I've been thinking about the ideas raised in this ******** thread all week. *stamps foot* xd

Tea (or anyone else for that matter)- Do you have any resources (books or otherwise) you would reccommend to me on stone correspondencies from a greco-roman point of view?
As in..what has been disscussed here. WHY certain stones have those connotations.

Thankies ^_^  

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

ShadowSharrow

Which will lead me off into wildmagic rambling if I am not careful.

Oh? Do tell?

That if everything has a magical and engertic resonance / signature/ pattern and all matter is made out of the same components then it would be possible to do magically acts or spell with out using the phycial compoments but rahter working with or invoking those components magical and engertic resonance / signature/ pattern and to have it work.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Um... If anyone would like, I have won privilege to share a small listing of stone, mineral, and material associations and explanation from my lodge.
It wouldn't be much of an info dump, but it may be of some use, as my lodge follows some of the principles of the Hermes Trismegistus model. Which has some small relation (distant tho it might be) to certain Hellenic practices and beliefs, altho it is heavily altered.  

[patch99329]

Fiddlers Green

Um... If anyone would like, I have won privilege to share a small listing of stone, mineral, and material associations and explanation from my lodge.
It wouldn't be much of an info dump, but it may be of some use, as my lodge follows some of the principles of the Hermes Trismegistus model. Which has some small relation (distant tho it might be) to certain Hellenic practices and beliefs, altho it is heavily altered.

I would love to see that. 3nodding  

[Fiddlers Green]

ShadowSharrow

That if everything has a magical and engertic resonance / signature/ pattern and all matter is made out of the same components then it would be possible to do magically acts or spell with out using the phycial compoments but rahter working with or invoking those components magical and engertic resonance / signature/ pattern and to have it work.

From my education, yes...
However, it is much easier with the actual tool in hand... and causing the process to work without a trapping, using merely the concept, requires a supernal understanding of the physics at work, and the way in which the self can supply the motivating energy for the entire process to begin.
In my lodge we are expressly forbidden from attempting that in anything other than the most controlled environment, to avoid potential damage to local geomancy and other unfortunate side effects.

The other big bonus of using the actual formulae, is the ability to have those with no understanding assist, so long as they follow the instructions exactly, it will work, even with complete and utter ignorance on the part of the aides. But then again, I have noticed a tendency of people to be slapdash and sloppy when they don't understand the full significance of what they are doing... sweatdrop  

[Fiddlers Green]

okay... here we go...
The model I shall use is
Object: Affinities
Reasons

Amber: Plants, The Body, Sun
As the solid lifeblood of the greenwood, amber is connected to plants, and in a similar 5 element system, elements of Life. Sunlight is observed phenomenon with heat and warmth, and the affinity of certain Solar divinities.

Agate: Aurum, Poisons
The stone bears the name of Allah and the 11 Imams, carrying the association with the sky, altho we believe the association is far older, and traces it's roots to pre-Zoroastrian Persia. Limb Agate, formed in the cavities of the roots of medicinal plants can carry their properties.

Amethyst: Poisons, Gnosis
The very name comes from Latin, A (not) Methustos (drunk). So, from what I recall Dionysus was pissed and horny, and assailed a hapless passerby to vent his drunken anger, but Artemis protected that person ('s virtue) by turning her into a statue of crystal, Dionysus wept tears of wine at his twarted lusts and they were soaked into the crystal, thus staining it. This gave it a resonance to twart drunkeness, and by association, other poisons.
Not allowed to explain where the Gnosis part came from, but it resonates heavily with the God of the Catholics, and was once part of their regalia.

Aquamarine: Aquam, Poisons
Water purifies. Aquamarines are associated with the scales of a certain sea monster, and carrying it lends mastery over the waves it dwells in, and fools sea monsters into believing you are one of them.

Basalt: Ignem, Terram, Warding
Durable, imposing, and born of volcanic activity.

Beryl (yes, this is a catch-all): Aquam
Colour resonance.
Some other traditions use them to aid in scrying, I don't know why.

Bloodstone: Body
This Heliotrope, Chalcedony stone is stained with the blood of Jeshua. It carries the healing properties of such divine origin.

Cat's Eye, or Chrysoberyl: Warding
Especially against scrying by familiars. The un-blinking eye of a creature that see's in the darkness is a strong resonance.

Chalcedony: Shaping, Slaying
The parent material of many a mystic talisman, it can be made into wonderous objects, yet it's crystal structure is deadly in shape and lends itself well to making effective, if crude weapons.

Coral: Terram, Destroys Demons
The blood of a Gorgon, hardened and jagged... it is associated with the effects of it's owner's gaze, and the symbology of a powerfull monster slain by mortal (ish) hands.

Diamonds: Terram, Destroy Demons, Warding.
What can't be said about Adamant? The mightiest of stones of the earth, forged into a sword to slay a Gorgon, nearly indestructable. Drawing upon it's incredibly stable structure, it is usefull in preventing unwanted changes.

Emerald: Lust, Gnosis, scalykind
One of the stones of the High Priest's breastplate, in the days when the Tribes of Israel still carried the name of their god, was thought to be emerald.
I'm not allowed to explain the lust part.
Keep in mind, Emerald is a Beryl, and thus has all of the base materials resonances as well... the same holds true for other groups.
Emeralds were once considered the scales of a certain dragon.

Haematite: Body, Terram
The Iron of the metal, calls to the blood, and the stone is strongly associated with the earth it is taken from.
It is basically considered the Gemstone version of Ferrium (which is another show), so if you need iron, but not in a metal form, this is the tool for the job.

Jacinth: Need a resonance and don't have the right tools for the job, Jacinth is our version of a band-aid.

Jade: Sorry, I'm not allowed to discuss this one. But there are plenty of easy sources online. sweatdrop

Jasper: Gnosis
Another stone in the High Priest breastplate.

Jet: Darkness, Plants
Same as amber, it was once alive... but unlike amber, it has been scorched, and is more of a dead material...

Obsidian: Ignem, Darkness, Scrying
Scary stuff here. Glass born from a volcano. The Aztecs used this one alot, and it had special importance in a relic mirror. Sharpest stone I've ever held. I'm not allowed to disclose much about this one, but there are plenty of online sources.

Onyx: Not supposed to say much about this one, but it's an evil stone, it wasn't always, the Assyrians used it alot, but something happened, and it has almost a tainting quality...

Opal: Another banned stone. It once was considered great luck, but now it is quite the opposite. Much like Onyx, my tradition shuns it.
On an aside, it's molecular structure, as it is, is fascinating, but difficult to work with on an appreciable level in all but the most controled environs.

Pearl: Aquam, Poisons
Before Hamlet, dissolving a pearl in wine was excellent good luck, and oft considered to ameliorate any nasty side effects. My lodge still drinks one goblet a year, in which a pearl was dissolved. I really can't remember the long explanation for why it is Water aspected, but it mostly boiled down to: because it's made in the water.

Quartz: Terram, Aurum, Knowledge, Warding, Scrying.
This stuff really rocks. Easy to get, with physcial properties that are wonderous even without going beyound the High School Physics book.
Piezoelectric properties are great fun.
Besides that, the clear varieties have resonance to the sky, and cloudy varieties, to storms. One of the most common representatives of the composition of the Earth, and pretty to boot.

Ruby: War, Ignem, Body, Gnosis, Sun, Wealth
The Red stone of war, once adorned a High Priest's breastplate, and is molecularly fascinating. The Vedics placed it as having powers associated with the Sun, and by extension flame and heat. Many Asian Cultures adorned their tools of war with them, and they were one of the earlier gemstones to be used as a currency, especially on the silk Road.

Sapphire: Knowledge, Gnosis, Body.
Another contender for Breastplate positioning... altho it's shakey. The Vedics ascribe two heavenly bodies to it, what we recognize as Jupiter and Saturn. Alot of history on this one is hard to trust, as the Romans, at least early on, called almost all blue gemstones by the name that is usually translated as sapphire. The Star Sapphire, has celestial properties by association, and is considered quite lucky.

Topaz: Heroism, Leadership, the Mind
Not at liberty to give more than those resonances.

Tourmaline: Lightning, Ignem
Purely scientific on this one, no history, just an very useful stone in bridging the gap between electricity and fire. The actually physical properties of this stone are very fun.

Turquoise: Like Jacinth, only better.
Need a resonance, using the propper techniques, turquoise has just about everything other than state of matter resonances. Green turquoise should be avoided tho, as it has resonances with the dead.

Okay, now, beyound those very basics...
The metal of the setting is direly important, but that is a different discussion.
Also, colour associations matter as well, but not to the extent of the material associations, unless otherwise noted.

These are just the tidbits I am allowed to share from my tradition, this isn't the final word by any means, and we are still engaging in research on most of this.  

[TeaDidikai]

patch99329

I've been thinking about the ideas raised in this ******** thread all week. *stamps foot* xd

Tea (or anyone else for that matter)- Do you have any resources (books or otherwise) you would reccommend to me on stone correspondencies from a greco-roman point of view?
As in..what has been disscussed here. WHY certain stones have those connotations.

Thankies ^_^

I'll do my best to find it Patch. It's been ages since I picked it up though.