Metagenetics

[TeaDidikai]

AvalonAuggie

Tea, you constantly amaze and frighten me with your ability to create coherent topics on everything under the sun.

~sweeping bow~ I do my best.

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I have to side with Tsuzuki on the issue of the validity of metagenetics. If you hold to the concept of blood ties between a particular culture and particular deities, there's a limit to how far back you'd conveivably want to trace your ancestry. If we go back far enough humans have a common ancestor in Mitochondrial Eve but that doesn't mean we should all shift to some sort of African animist belief system.

Of course not. Perhaps we are beginning to see the difference between Hard and Soft Metagenetics?

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I think for those of us not lucky enough to have that sense of direct lineage ties to a particular culture metagenetics becomes less important. I agree with you though that incorporating ancestral cultures in your faith can be quite spiritually fulfilling. But above all (and this is my American individualism talking) I think it's important to recognize what deities you feel called to follow. At the end of the day I'm living my life, not the lives of my ancestors.

But where does that cross a line between what you want to do and what the gods want you to do?

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That said, I'm attempting to derail this thread with a personal crisis, since this seems to be the place to ask about it. I feel called to at least investigate beliefs in my Afrian heritage. That particular side of the family's overwhelmingly Catholic (also includes French ancestry), but I don't feel terribly bad overlooking Christian ties ever since I found out my dad got excommunicated. My problem of course is knowing where to look. That pesky slavery problem makes it incredibly difficult to trace geneaology on that side of the family at all, and I have no idea which African cultures I should be looking at.

Does anyone know of good links for info on African religions? Or Afro-American geneaology?

Hmmmm... not off the top of my head. Do you feel drawn to the Loa?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

~Blinks~ There aren't? ~looks at the population of Rome, and the overall population of Sweden, Norway...~ Hmmmmm...

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sweatdrop Historical Norse and Romans? I'm not really sure how to explain what I meant. Modern Italians who live in Rome and people in the Scandanavian countries, even if of ancient Roman (I've forgotten what their particular genetic subset is called) or Norse descent, have kind of left most of it behind, that I can see. You know, the French have some Viking museums and there's architechture scattered all over Rome, but it's...not the same? And I realize that Jewish people obviously don't live like their ancestors did either, but it seems different to me somehow.

But, if I can't qualify it, that probably means it doesn't exist and I'm totally off the mark.

 

[Pelta]

AvalonAuggie

Does anyone know of good links for info on African religions?

There are some pretty interesting books on sacred-texts.com. But keep in mind that most of them were written by Christian missionaries.

Metagenetics is an interesting theory. I'm a mutt (part Polish, Irish, Romanian and goodness knows what else) but I acquired my tradition by how I was raised. Which brings in some interesting thoughts as to what Avalon was saying, about shifting to an African animist belief system. I spent the first four years of my life in the Cote d'Ivoire, and do follow an animist belief system. Now whether that comes from the metagenetics being traced all the way back to my primordial ancestors, or because I was raised there, I'll probably never know. I could just as easily have acquired a Hellenic belief system from the next four years I spent in Cyprus, or an interest in the Rroma tradition (sorry Tea) from the five years I spent in Hungary, or even a Celtic tradition from the past several years I've spent here in Ireland. But I never felt anything more than just a scholarly interest in the rest of them.
As has been suggested in Tea's other thread, faiths have a lot to do with personalities and personal experiences. This can include being raised within a tradition or just the experiences that one has throughout their life. However, DNA also has a lot to do with how someone's personality develops. So it kind of comes down to the nature vs. nurture debate, which can not be solved definitively in either direction.  

[AvalonAuggie]

TeaDidikai

AvalonAuggie

I have to side with Tsuzuki on the issue of the validity of metagenetics. If you hold to the concept of blood ties between a particular culture and particular deities, there's a limit to how far back you'd conveivably want to trace your ancestry. If we go back far enough humans have a common ancestor in Mitochondrial Eve but that doesn't mean we should all shift to some sort of African animist belief system.

Of course not. Perhaps we are beginning to see the difference between Hard and Soft Metagenetics?

hooray for incorporating more terms! So Hard Metagenetics (Metaculture?) would apply more aptly to Closed Cultures or faiths emphasizing ethnic identity in their creation myths? More like Navajo or Australian Aboriginal "we came out of the land" genre of creation accounts.

And Soft Metagenetics would perhaps recognize the influence of particular gods on particular cultures, but also recognize the ultimate genetic unity of the species and place some sort of limit to how far back the concept of a cultural god can go. Or something. Soft-terminologies are totally named so because of the blurred and fuzzy distinctions.

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But where does that cross a line between what you want to do and what the gods want you to do?

Damn good question. I'd say it depends on how Reconstructionist someone's faith is. I weigh the traditional significance of a practice against its relevance to my life in this crazy mixed up postmodern world before trying to incorporate it. If I'm being contacted by a deity who usually requires a strict traditionalist form of worship, I'll have second thoughts. I think ultimately faith rests on one's interpretation of what They want, and what They want for us.

Also I'm not about to go traipsing off to the fields to ensure the fertility of my crops and my cattle, because I don't own any, and my survival isn't directly tied to such things. ...goodness, I am a self-centered b***h. No wonder I'm finding this difficult. XD

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Hmmmm... not off the top of my head. Do you feel drawn to the Loa?

I'm reading up on them right now, actually. I like the idea of having a mutual relationship with the spirits, supplying them with food, etc. Of course I don't exactly have the resources to start performing animal sacrifice. xp It seems worth looking into though, especially since Voudoun and related faiths are based on syncretism..hm. I think my best bet at this point would be to do more research, and at some point give a general food offering and see who takes the bait, so to speak.  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

sweatdrop Historical Norse and Romans? I'm not really sure how to explain what I meant. Modern Italians who live in Rome and people in the Scandanavian countries, even if of ancient Roman (I've forgotten what their particular genetic subset is called) or Norse descent, have kind of left most of it behind, that I can see. You know, the French have some Viking museums and there's architechture scattered all over Rome, but it's...not the same? And I realize that Jewish people obviously don't live like their ancestors did either, but it seems different to me somehow.

But, if I can't qualify it, that probably means it doesn't exist and I'm totally off the mark.

Sorry Dis. You lost me.

Are you saying that because the historical culture died that the decendents are not bound by lineage?

AvalonAuggie

hooray for incorporating more terms! So Hard Metagenetics (Metaculture?) would apply more aptly to Closed Cultures or faiths emphasizing ethnic identity in their creation myths? More like Navajo or Australian Aboriginal "we came out of the land" genre of creation accounts.

And Soft Metagenetics would perhaps recognize the influence of particular gods on particular cultures, but also recognize the ultimate genetic unity of the species and place some sort of limit to how far back the concept of a cultural god can go. Or something. Soft-terminologies are totally named so because of the blurred and fuzzy distinctions.

I think Hard Metagenetics would say "You must worship the gods of your ancestors", where as Soft Metagenetics would say "You are not allowed to worship gods that demand people have a lineage to them if you do not have such a lineage".

Quote:

Damn good question. I'd say it depends on how Reconstructionist someone's faith is. I weigh the traditional significance of a practice against its relevance to my life in this crazy mixed up postmodern world before trying to incorporate it. If I'm being contacted by a deity who usually requires a strict traditionalist form of worship, I'll have second thoughts. I think ultimately faith rests on one's interpretation of what They want, and what They want for us.

Also I'm not about to go traipsing off to the fields to ensure the fertility of my crops and my cattle, because I don't own any, and my survival isn't directly tied to such things. ...goodness, I am a self-centered b***h. No wonder I'm finding this difficult. XD

Not a problem. Most of my gods get a nod and polite request for substitution due to the fact that if I get caught doing illegal offerings, and tossed in jail, they don't get even a consoluation offering.

Quote:

I'm reading up on them right now, actually. I like the idea of having a mutual relationship with the spirits, supplying them with food, etc. Of course I don't exactly have the resources to start performing animal sacrifice. xp It seems worth looking into though, especially since Voudoun and related faiths are based on syncretism..hm. I think my best bet at this point would be to do more research, and at some point give a general food offering and see who takes the bait, so to speak.

Sounds like a plan.  

[Jishin]

TeaDidikai

Odin never said people who aren't of the Northlands cannot worship him.

You know, Tea, there are a lot of folks out there who would disagree with you on that. I keep running into them. (Hence the rant on the prior page.)

Where on earth do they get that idea? It's not anywhere in the primary texts that I can find, and in fact the Norse deities mingled freely with the Jotuns and even the humans, if I recall correctly. I'm continually baffled by that.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

Sorry Dis. You lost me.

Are you saying that because the historical culture died that the decendents are not bound by lineage?

I was getting at something like that. I think there comes a point where blood is not thicker than water. Although, to tie into another of your threads (funny how often that happens), this view might be a result of the fact that I don't really have much that I would call a lineage. A non-practicing Jew still has that whole heritage; I've got nothing. I may be biologically related to a whole bunch of people, but I've got no family ties to them and thus can make no claim on lineage. I can't even remember if my great-grandparents are Scottish, Irish, or both. -_-;  

[TeaDidikai]

Jishin

TeaDidikai

Odin never said people who aren't of the Northlands cannot worship him.

You know, Tea, there are a lot of folks out there who would disagree with you on that. I keep running into them. (Hence the rant on the prior page.)

Where on earth do they get that idea? It's not anywhere in the primary texts that I can find, and in fact the Norse deities mingled freely with the Jotuns and even the humans, if I recall correctly. I'm continually baffled by that.

Because they smoke crack. 3nodding

No- seriously. The Hard Metagentics falls when it comes to Asatru. Not so for every religion, but as you point out, it is not present in the Eddas, the Sagas, the... well, anything as far as I can remember.

TheDisreputableDog

TeaDidikai

Sorry Dis. You lost me.

Are you saying that because the historical culture died that the decendents are not bound by lineage?

I was getting at something like that. I think there comes a point where blood is not thicker than water. Although, to tie into another of your threads (funny how often that happens), this view might be a result of the fact that I don't really have much that I would call a lineage. A non-practicing Jew still has that whole heritage; I've got nothing. I may be biologically related to a whole bunch of people, but I've got no family ties to them and thus can make no claim on lineage. I can't even remember if my great-grandparents are Scottish, Irish, or both. -_-;

Meh... it happens.

Actually, the lack of genealogy is a fairly new concept. Most families used to have very detailed family records, and it isn't until you actually see the colonies of the USA that there becomes a true concept of a cultural melting pot over co-existing cultures.

This new development provides new opportunity however. I'm a prime example of this. My faith, at it's most basic, is a reconstruction of what would have been seen if my great grand parents all lived in the same house together and allowed the practical aspects of their religion co-mingle.

Cultural taboos that were upheld within their generation are held in mine (which can be a real b***h due to some of the purity laws my Baba took part in).  

[Jishin]

TeaDidikai

Because they smoke crack. 3nodding

No- seriously. The Hard Metagentics falls when it comes to Asatru. Not so for every religion, but as you point out, it is not present in the Eddas, the Sagas, the... well, anything as far as I can remember.

heart Heeheehee. razz

I am curious -- I really don't know too much about your path, and you've only got a limited amount of stuff up in the Pathways forum so far. Is there a place I could look at to learn more about what your faith contains, or is it a mystery tradition?  

[Jishin]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[TeaDidikai]

Jishin

heart Heeheehee. razz

I am curious -- I really don't know too much about your path, and you've only got a limited amount of stuff up in the Pathways forum so far. Is there a place I could look at to learn more about what your faith contains, or is it a mystery tradition?

Mystery tradition... well, it's not so much that everything is oath bound as much as I don't want to deal with a very angry Baba when she learns I said things I shouldn't have.

I'm more afraid of her than I am of you. She wins. mrgreen

And good gods- Migene is the Silver Ravenwolf of her "era". The way she slaughtered Crowley's teaching into the "White" and "Black" magic creeds- ~Twiiiiiiiiiiiitch~

Anyway- I'll get back to working on the Pathways thread. I had a few posts typed and we had a power outage, and I haven't had the heart (or time) to redo it.  

[Tsuzuki]

TeaDidikai

AvalonAuggie

hooray for incorporating more terms! So Hard Metagenetics (Metaculture?) would apply more aptly to Closed Cultures or faiths emphasizing ethnic identity in their creation myths? More like Navajo or Australian Aboriginal "we came out of the land" genre of creation accounts.

And Soft Metagenetics would perhaps recognize the influence of particular gods on particular cultures, but also recognize the ultimate genetic unity of the species and place some sort of limit to how far back the concept of a cultural god can go. Or something. Soft-terminologies are totally named so because of the blurred and fuzzy distinctions.

I think Hard Metagenetics would say "You must worship the gods of your ancestors", where as Soft Metagenetics would say "You are not allowed to worship gods that demand people have a lineage to them if you do not have such a lineage".

I would call both of these hard metagenetics. And what happens when it's proven that no such lineage exists, such as the Japanese emperor being descended from Koreans, not kami? Would that invalidate the entire Shinto religion? I'm more inclined to go with AvalonAuggie's definition.  

[Jishin]

TeaDidikai

Mystery tradition... well, it's not so much that everything is oath bound as much as I don't want to deal with a very angry Baba when she learns I said things I shouldn't have.

I'm more afraid of her than I am of you. She wins. mrgreen

And good gods- Migene is the Silver Ravenwolf of her "era". The way she slaughtered Crowley's teaching into the "White" and "Black" magic creeds- ~Twiiiiiiiiiiiitch~

Anyway- I'll get back to working on the Pathways thread. I had a few posts typed and we had a power outage, and I haven't had the heart (or time) to redo it.

Fair enough. No pressure from me to get in trouble with your Baba. wink

Like I said, I had no idea about the validity of the book. It was just something I'd picked up recently, and hadn't had much chance to evaluate it for accuracy.  

[TeaDidikai]

Tsuzuki

I would call both of these hard metagenetics. And what happens when it's proven that no such lineage exists, such as the Japanese emperor being descended from Koreans, not kami? Would that invalidate the entire Shinto religion? I'm more inclined to go with AvalonAuggie's definition.

You ignore the fact that just because at one point there were Koreans within the Emperors line, it does not prove there were never gods in his line.  

[Tsuzuki]

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

I would call both of these hard metagenetics. And what happens when it's proven that no such lineage exists, such as the Japanese emperor being descended from Koreans, not kami? Would that invalidate the entire Shinto religion? I'm more inclined to go with AvalonAuggie's definition.

You ignore the fact that just because at one point there were Koreans within the Emperors line, it does not prove there were never gods in his line.

What does divine DNA look like? Surely, there must be some genetic markers signifying descent from the kami.