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Steel Sterling
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:41 am
Maddy
Steel Sterling

RIKER: Data is a physical representation of a dream, an idea conceived of by the mind of a man. His purpose? To serve human needs and interests.


Did Data at any point during the trial answer the question as to which he thinks it's his purpose?



*reviews the script*

He did not. He was neither asked this, nor did he volunteer it.

Frankly, I like the later episodes that this had an effect on, but the more I
study this one, the more Picard's defense bothers me.  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:49 am
Steel Sterling
Maddy
Steel Sterling

RIKER: Data is a physical representation of a dream, an idea conceived of by the mind of a man. His purpose? To serve human needs and interests.


Did Data at any point during the trial answer the question as to which he thinks it's his purpose?



*reviews the script*

He did not. He was neither asked this, nor did he volunteer it.

Frankly, I like the later episodes that this had an effect on, but the more I
study this one, the more Picard's defense bothers me.



Hm.
This appeared after the drafts, but in the episode....


DATA: "I am the culmination of one man's dream. This is not ego or vanity, but when Doctor Soong created me, he added to the substance of the universe. If, by your experiments, I am destroyed, something unique – something wonderful – will be lost. I cannot permit that. I must protect his dream."


This script had some interesting additions before airing.

Picard's summation gets tighter, and there's a note that the scripting of
the judgment would be improved-which it was.  

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:51 pm
Steel Sterling

Beverly calls causing "total systems failure" a GENOCIDE of the Borg.
(She doesn't use the WORD "genocide", but she uses the concept-
"annihilating an entire race."
She calls the Borg a "race."

NOBODY challenges her assertions.
They challenge whether or not genocide is JUSTIFIED.

Beverly suggests there are "civilians" among the Borg.

She calls the Borg a "people" to the Borg they later call "Hugh."

Picard concludes the discussion by saying, in effect, if the Federation does
not commit genocide against the Borg, the Borg will effectively do the
same to the Federation (and have tried before.)


Thank you!

In that case...

Picard's answer to the puppet comment from Riker should have been something like:

Yes, you can take Data's arm off and re-attach it later. But having cybernetic implants that can be taken off doesn't mean you're less of person. (Note to self: use Geordi as an example if in need of more cases)

And there are races with cybernetic parts that have never been questioned as to them being people. *Uses the borgs as example*

Even more, since we're talking about the Borg... They can switch themselves off by getting in their niches to recharge, in the same way Data can switch himself off. Does that mean the borgs are less of a person because they have something on their beings that we don't have? And... Is an unconscious human by way of a Vulcan nerve pinch considered to be "switched off"?


[and I would leave that rambling on, but it'll get boring and out of track very soon]  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:50 pm
Maddy
Steel Sterling

Beverly calls causing "total systems failure" a GENOCIDE of the Borg.
(She doesn't use the WORD "genocide", but she uses the concept-
"annihilating an entire race."
She calls the Borg a "race."

NOBODY challenges her assertions.
They challenge whether or not genocide is JUSTIFIED.

Beverly suggests there are "civilians" among the Borg.

She calls the Borg a "people" to the Borg they later call "Hugh."

Picard concludes the discussion by saying, in effect, if the Federation does
not commit genocide against the Borg, the Borg will effectively do the
same to the Federation (and have tried before.)


Thank you!

In that case...

Picard's answer to the puppet comment from Riker should have been something like:

Yes, you can take Data's arm off and re-attach it later. But having cybernetic implants that can be taken off doesn't mean you're less of person. (Note to self: use Geordi as an example if in need of more cases)

And there are races with cybernetic parts that have never been questioned as to them being people. *Uses the borgs as example*

Even more, since we're talking about the Borg... They can switch themselves off by getting in their niches to recharge, in the same way Data can switch himself off. Does that mean the borgs are less of a person because they have something on their beings that we don't have? And... Is an unconscious human by way of a Vulcan nerve pinch considered to be "switched off"?


[and I would leave that rambling on, but it'll get boring and out of track very soon]


It seems nobody else wants to get in the middle of this discussion. Oh, well.
I like more voices-we cover more ground that way.

You have an effective counter to "can body parts be removed" there.

You also hit on the "switched off" counter.
When I complained about this during the show's initial run, I told my
friend Raf
"Press on the right artery for 7 seconds, you can switch off any human".
He replied "Artery, nothing- just bring in a Vulcan and have him
"switch off" the human.
(In my case, I probably would have brought in Geordi (as a volunteer),
and using Riker's wording as closely as possible, removed his
cybernetic implant,
then (using 2 more volunteers-one human, one Vulcan)
demonstrate turning a human off- using Riker's wording, again, as
closely as possible.

(If Geordi agreed, he could be used in both examples, one after the other.)  

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:56 pm
Some of the suppositions made in this episode are never challenged.
Picard challenged a few at the end.




Steel Sterling
Here's some direct quotes from the script.

Before any hearing:
===========
Picard: Starfleet is not an organization that ignores its own regulations when they become inconvenient. Whether you like it or not,
Data. Does. Have. Rights.


Data has rights because he's a Federation citizen. Unless the Federation
is run by morons, you can't tell me Data can enter and complete the
Academy, serve as an officer, and end up captaining ships at times,
all having never been made a Federation citizen. By the time he was
made an officer at the latest (Ensign or higher), he would have to have
completed his citizenship.

The time to determine Data's rights, at the latest, was at his application
to Starfleet Academy. Actually, Maddox was the only dissenter to
Data's application. That means that the panel that ruled on Data's
admission to the Academy made an official declaration that applicant
Data was in fact a person, a sentient being, and a properly-identified
Federation citizen. (We have no specifics on how THAT goes, but the
REAL test would have been at THAT application.)

Since that time, every admission to a class, his graduation, every posting
since then, every commendation, every promotion, all reinforces the
ruling that Data is a Federation citizen, an officer, and- as a prerequisite
to EITHER- a PERSON, a SENTIENT BEING, with ALL RIGHTS as a
citizen and officer that any other citizen and officer have.

Maddox's delusions to the contrary,
Data. Does. Have. Rights.

And they were promptly forgotten and never mentioned again.

The idea that one JAG officer can retroactively strip a Federation citizen
and a decorated Starfleet officer of all his rights, and render him a
slave, THAT should scare any citizens who heard about this case.


Quote:

Maddox: Let me put it another way. Would you permit the computer on the Enterprise to refuse a refit?


Trick question. The Enterprise is not SENTIENT. The Enterprise does not
think or have opinions. The Enterprise can't "refuse" anything.

And the Enterprise is neither a Federation citizen nor an officer.
The Enterprise does NOT have rights.


Quote:

Phillipa: An interesting point, but the Enterprise computer is property. Is Data?

Maddox: Of course.


Maddox is delusional.
Data is a Federation citizen, and a Starfleet officer.
Is he suggesting that Starfleet and the Federation have allowances
for SLAVES, for CHATTEL, to attend the Academy, and serve as
officers in Starfleet?


Quote:

Phillipa: There might be law to support that position.


This JAG officer really doesn't care much about Data as a citizen and as
an officer WITH RIGHTS, does she?
There might be law to support the position that one of the command
officers of the Federation's flagship, a citizen in good standing of the
Federation, is PROPERTY, is a SLAVE?



Quote:

Picard: A decision with such broad-ranging implications must be supported by an official ruling.
And I trust you will apply the same zeal to your research that you used during the Stargazer court-martial.


Picard doesn't mention any of this, letting her go wherever she wanted
to make her ruling. Why doesn't Picard say "the Federation does not
accept slavery as an option for its officers"?

I think this JAG officer cared more about the idea of the disposable
slave androids than she did the rights of her officers.
Then again, IN PRACTICE, individuality seems to be PUNISHED in the
Federation.

Quote:

================

Phillipa: I have completed my research, and based on the Acts of GouldCumberland passed in the early twenty-first century, Data is the property of Starfleet. He cannot resign and he cannot refuse to cooperate with Commander Maddox.

Picard: And if I challenge this ruling?


Phillipa: I will be required to hold a hearing.

Picard: Then I so challenge. Convene your hearing.


The Acts of Cumberland (Acts of Gould in the script) are not a valid
precedent because the past few hundred years have superceded them
as precedents. We the audience can't read them, but we know what
they don't say, and a little of what they say. Obviously, they concern
the "rights" of robots built by a species. Period.
Philippa EXTRAPOLATED that Data is the property of STARFLEET.
Why? Dr Soongh made him. Starfleet FOUND Data, who, in essence,
was a refugee when he was discovered, a "survivor" of an attacked
colony. Does Starfleet ENSLAVE refugees they find?

No matter what Data's status was, by the time of his formal acceptance
at Starfleet Academy as a cadet, he was considered BY LAW to be a
sentient being entitled to all privileges and duties as an Academy
applicant/cadet.

The ruling by Starfleet then SPECIFICALLY supercedes and vague
connections one may concoct from centuries before, concerning less
sophisticated robots than Data. (We know Soong's androids are THE
most sophisticated robots, therefore, all rulings not made on them were
made on less sophisticated robots, robots that obviously were not
held to be citizens.

SPECIFIC precedents take primacy over GENERAL precedents.  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:17 pm
Steel Sterling
More direct quotes.

=============

Philippa: This hearing convened on stardate 42524.1 is to determine the legal status of the android known as Data. The office of the Judge Advocate General has rendered a finding of property, defense has challenged. Commander Riker.


RIKER: Your honor, there is only one issue in this case and one relevant piece of evidence. I call Lieutenant Commander Data.


COMPUTER VOICE: Verify, Lieutenant Commander Data. Current assignment, USS Enterprise. Starfleet Command Decoration for...

RIKER: Your honor, we'll stipulate to all of this.


PICARD: Objection, your honor, I want it read. All of it.

PHILLIPA: Sustained.

COMPUTER VOICE: ... Gallantry, Medal of Honor with clusters, Legion of Honor, the Star Cross.


Nobody thought to mention the commendations-and the fact that he
has a PERSONNEL FILE and a SERVICE RECORD- counted for anything.
Why not?

Quote:

RIKER: Commander Data, what are you?

DATA: An android.

RIKER: Which is?

DATA: Webster's Twenty-Third Century Dictionary, Fifth Edition, defines Android as an automaton made to resemble a human being.

RIKER: An automaton. Made. Made by whom?

Objection: Data's origin is not relevant here. Data's rights as a Starfleet
officer and Federation citizen are relevant here. To say his origin matters
here is as relevant to say his PARENTS and family tree would be
relevant as to whether or not he has rights.


Quote:

DATA: Sir?

RIKER: Who built you, Data?

DATA: Doctor Noonien Soong.

RIKER: And he was?

DATA: The foremost authority in cybernetics.

RIKER: More basic than that. What was he?

DATA: A human?

RIKER: Thank you. Data. What is the capacity of your memory, and how fast can you process information?

DATA: I have an ultimate storage capacity of eight hundred quadrillion bits. My total linear computational speed has been rated at sixty trillion operations per second.


Objection: There is no requirement that a sentient being be of INFERIOR
intelligence, or have a limitation to his memory or thinking speeds.
Different sentient beings-and different citizens and races- will vary in
their abilities.


Quote:

RIKER: Your honor, I offer into evidence prosecution's exhibit A. A bar of plasteel with a tensile strength of forty kilo-bars.
Commander Data, would you please bend that?


PICARD: Objection, your honor. Many races possess meta-human strength. It's not relevant to the issue before this court.


PHILLIPA: I'm afraid I can't agree, Captain. Proceed with the demonstration, Commander Riker.


DATA: *bends bar*

RIKER: Drawing on the log record of the construction of the prototype android Lore, also constructed by Noonien Soong, I request that I be allowed to remove Commander Data's hand for your inspection.


PICARD: Objection! What is the point of all this?


PHILLIPA: The issue before this court is whether Data is machine, and by extension property. I'd say this is pretty damn relevant.


Objection. How did "Is Data a machine?" become
"Data is property?" What kind of "extension" applies under the law?

All physical individuals are "machines", whether biological or some other
kind. Data is a machine, and so are the members of the court.
There is no relevance to asking "Is Data a machine" because that has
never been the question. The question is "Does the machine Data have
all the rights of any other machine officer or citizen, and is he allowed
the same rights to think for himself that the Federation and Starfleet
accords all biological machines?

Whether or not a sentient being is "property" or not, a "SLAVE" or not,
is in no way connected to whether they are any kind of "MACHINE."
The Cardassians currently enslave the Bajorans, and both are biological
"machines" just as we are.



Quote:

RIKER: *removes Data's hand*
(whispers to Data) I'm sorry.


Objection: To state Data's rights are dependent upon whether cybernetic
or other body parts of his can be removed is gross "formism." All
beings can have body parts removed-it's just a question of how easy it
is to safely do.
The Federation acknowledges silicon-based lifeforms such as the
Excalbians and the Sheliak- Data is also silicon-based.
The Federation acknowledges lifeforms with NO physical bodies-
the Q, the Organians, the Nagilum. That they- and the Excalbians, and
the Sheliak- are sentient is beyond question.
The Federation currently has citizens of the Horta. They are also
silicon-based, and shaped NOTHING like any humanoid.
(From "Devil in the Dark".)
The physical form of a sentient being is not relevant to their status as
a sentient being- according to Federation law and practice.




Quote:

RIKER: Data is a physical representation of a dream, an idea conceived of by the mind of a man. His purpose? To serve human needs and interests. He is a collection of neural nets and heuristic algorithms. His responses are dictated by an elaborate software program written by a man. The hardware was built by a man.


Objection: Relevance. This court is not here to examine the hopes of
any parent concerning their offspring, no matter the method of
deriving those offspring.

One can just as easily say of any officer
"He exemplifies the hopes and dreams of his parents and grandparents.
To serve human needs and interests. He is a collection of nerve cells,
muscle, and other tissue. His responses are dictated by an elaborate
interplay between genetics, upbringing, experience, and his own
interpretation of all those. His body came from the bodies of his parents."



Quote:

*switches off Data*
And this man has turned him off. Pinocchio is broken, the strings are cut.


*has a Vulcan pinch a human unconsciousness*
This man has turned him off.
And it has no relevance whatsoever on Data's rights, or this human.
They both have rights no matter how easy it is to knock them
unconscious, or how difficult. This is a non-issue in this case.



Quote:

PICARD: I request a recess.

PHILLIPA: Granted.
 

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:20 pm
Now you can see why some people resort to
"controlling the microphone" or various logic fallacies when they try to
debate me informally....


biggrin  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:44 pm
Notice Picard was unable, for all his personal dealings with Data,
with "alien" races, to see past the most obvious prejudices...


Quote:

PICARD: I need to know how you think, what you want, how you feel. What drives you, motivates you.

DATA: Drives? Motivates? Sir, may I inquire as to the purpose of this line of questioning?

PICARD: We have to prove that you're a sentient life-form.

DATA: (extremely puzzled) But I am not. I am a machine.

PICARD: That's not what I need to hear.

DATA: How can we deny the obvious?

PICARD: We're searching for an argument which will legally deny that obvious fact.

DATA: But if it is a fact how can argument alter --

PICARD: Data!

DATA: Sir?

PICARD: Stop babbling. (rewinding the threads of his fast-tattering patience) The law recognizes many things as people that aren't possessed of flesh and blood. It's a little legal fiction, you see.

DATA: I am beginning to understand why Shakespeare wrote, let us kill all the lawyers.


Of all people, why does DATA have a preconceived notion as to the
mutual exclusivity of "sentient life form" and "machine"?
Did he not, many years ago, make "a leap of faith" that he was more than
the sum total of his programming and parts? ("Rightful Heir.")

HUMANS have preconceived notions and prejudices, and often the
ST ones are worse than ours, it seems. At least we can be embarassed
about ours...

Picard should have said they needed an argument that circumvented that
fact- that being a machine is irrelevant to determining whether or not
Data was a sentient life-form. Picard's inability to see this crippled his
opening gambits, and imposed limits on where he would go in his
defense.

Later, he overcomes this and puts Maddox on the stand.

Oddly, it wasn't until Guinan pointed it out that Picard realized that
discussing making a citizen "property" was "slavery."

Quote:

PICARD: (very intent) You said something earlier about decisions today.

GUINAN: Having implications for the future.

PICARD: Precedent! This case will set the precedent for all the future Datas. It will determine their status, and they'll all be property.

GUINAN: There is an ancient word for it -- slavery.

PICARD sad very excited):Not a word we want back in our vocabulary.


Before he puts Maddox on the stand, Picard puts Data on, and reinforces
what we already know- Data has interests, Data has sentiments, Data
has hobbies, Data makes decisions.

Before that, he finally says something useful in court:

Quote:

PICARD: Commander Riker has dramatically demonstrated to this court that Lieutenant Commander Data is a machine. Do we deny that? No.
But how is this relevant? We too are machines, just machines of a different type.

Commander Riker has continually reminded us that Data was built by a human. We do not deny that fact. But again how is it relevant? Does construction imply ownership? Children are created from the building blocks of their parents' DNA. Are they property? We have a chance in this hearing to severely limit the boundaries of freedom. And I think we better be pretty damn careful before we take so arrogant a step.
 

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:03 am
Quote:

PICARD:Commander Maddox, it is your contention that Data is not a sentient being and therefore not entitled to those rights reserved for all other life-forms in this Federation?

MADDOX: Data is not sentient, no.

PICARD: Why, Commander?

MADDOX: Because Data is a piece of outstanding engineering and programming.


PICARD: What is required for sentience?

MADDOX: Intelligence, self awareness, consciousness.

PICARD biggrin o you know what sentience is, Commander?

MADDOX:Of course.

PICARD:Excellent. Then you can enlighten the rest of us.
Prove to this court that I'M sentient.

MADDOX: This is absurd!

PICARD:Why? Because you can't do it?

MADDOX: No, it's just pointless. We all know you're sentient.

PICARD: So I'm sentient, but Data isn't?

MADDOX: That's right.

PICARD: Why?

MADDOX: Well... well, you're self aware.

PICARD: Ah, the second ingredient. But let's deal with the first requirement. Is Data intelligent?

MADDOX: Yes.

PICARD: Why?

MADDOX: It has the ability to learn and understand, and to cope with new situations.

PICARD: Like this hearing. What about self awareness. What does that mean? Why am I self aware?

MADDOX: Because you are conscious of your existence and actions. You're aware of yourself and your own ego.

PICARD: Data, what are you doing now?

DATA: I am taking part in a legal hearing to determine my rights and status. Am I property or person?

PICARD:And what's at stake?

DATA: My right to choose. Perhaps my very life.

PICARD: My rights. My status. My right to choose. My life. He seems pretty damn self aware to me. Well, Commander Maddox, I'm waiting.

MADDOX: This is exceedingly difficult...




Quote:
PICARD: What is Data?

MADDOX: What? I don't understand.

PICARD: What... is... he?

MADDOX: (angry now and hostile) A machine!

PICARD: Is he? Are you sure?

MADDOX: Yes!

PICARD: But he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, and we haven't addressed the third. So we might find him meeting your third criterion, and then what is he?

MADDOX: I don't know. I don't know!



Quote:
PICARD:
It will reach far beyond this courtroom and beyond this one android; it will forever define what kind of a people we are – what he is destined to be. It will forever shape the boundaries of personal liberties and freedoms within this Federation: expanding them for some, dramatically curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to sentence [Commander Data] – and all who come after him – to servitude and slavery? Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life.
(indicating Data)Well, there he sits, your honor, waiting on our decision. You have a chance to make law. Well, let's make a good one. Let us be wise.


PHILLIPA:
"It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I am neither competent, nor qualified, to answer those. I've got to make a ruling – to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose.


How did we establish Data isn't the property of Starfleet?
I thought we skipped around it completely...  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:28 pm
Steel Sterling

Quote:

Maddox: Let me put it another way. Would you permit the computer on the Enterprise to refuse a refit?


Trick question. The Enterprise is not SENTIENT. The Enterprise does not
think or have opinions. The Enterprise can't "refuse" anything.

And the Enterprise is neither a Federation citizen nor an officer.
The Enterprise does NOT have rights.


smile True. But do you want a more complex question?
Would you permit the EMH from the Voyager to refuse a refit?
And...
Would you turn off the holodeck without feeling a tiny bit guilty while "Professor Moriarty" is still running there?

Yeah, I know it doesn't have much to do with what we're discussing. But those two are characters I would have loved to see sitting in Data's place. I'm sure they both would have a lot of better arguments about all this than Picard ever got.


Quote:

Quote:

Picard: A decision with such broad-ranging implications must be supported by an official ruling.
And I trust you will apply the same zeal to your research that you used during the Stargazer court-martial.


Picard doesn't mention any of this, letting her go wherever she wanted
to make her ruling. Why doesn't Picard say "the Federation does not
accept slavery as an option for its officers"?

I think this JAG officer cared more about the idea of the disposable
slave androids than she did the rights of her officers.
Then again, IN PRACTICE, individuality seems to be PUNISHED in the
Federation.

Quote:



I keep thinking and the only thing I can say is that they chose the wrong men for the trial. Had Riker been Data's defendant and Picard been forced to side with Maddox, things would have been more clear.


Quote:

The Acts of Cumberland (Acts of Gould in the script) are not a valid
precedent because the past few hundred years have superceded them
as precedents. We the audience can't read them, but we know what
they don't say, and a little of what they say. Obviously, they concern
the "rights" of robots built by a species. Period.
Philippa EXTRAPOLATED that Data is the property of STARFLEET.
Why? Dr Soongh made him. Starfleet FOUND Data, who, in essence,
was a refugee when he was discovered, a "survivor" of an attacked
colony. Does Starfleet ENSLAVE refugees they find?


*giggles* I just realised: If Data were an object. And it were found by Starfleet. He couldn't be considered as treasure. Starfleet wouldn't be able to keep it as it's very obvious who the owner is. And you can only keep things for as long as you don't know who's the owner. If you know, you should return it if it's apparent that the thing is lost and not abandoned.
So Data being a thing subjected to property law should rightfully belong to Soongh and his descendants not Starfleet in any way, so even if Data was a thing it is not in Starfleet's right to give it to Maddox to play with.
 

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:40 pm
Steel Sterling

Nobody thought to mention the commendations-and the fact that he
has a PERSONNEL FILE and a SERVICE RECORD- counted for anything.
Why not?


One would think Picard had the intention to do something else than just lose time hearing to the list of commendations.

Quote:

Objection: Data's origin is not relevant here. Data's rights as a Starfleet
officer and Federation citizen are relevant here. To say his origin matters
here is as relevant to say his PARENTS and family tree would be
relevant as to whether or not he has rights.


Lovely argument. *cheers*

smile True.
And I keep having sidetracked thoughts that are somehow related.

I know the Jem'Haddar are not Federation citizens. But as far as I can tell they are recognized as a race. And so are the Vorta. Does the fact that they are created in laboratories instead of, let's say, the womb of a woman makes them any less "people"?

And yes, I know it isn't relevant as those races are not known by the tme of that episode.

Quote:

Objection. How did "Is Data a machine?" become
"Data is property?" What kind of "extension" applies under the law?

All physical individuals are "machines", whether biological or some other
kind. Data is a machine, and so are the members of the court.
There is no relevance to asking "Is Data a machine" because that has
never been the question. The question is "Does the machine Data have
all the rights of any other machine officer or citizen, and is he allowed
the same rights to think for himself that the Federation and Starfleet
accords all biological machines?

Whether or not a sentient being is "property" or not, a "SLAVE" or not,
is in no way connected to whether they are any kind of "MACHINE."
The Cardassians currently enslave the Bajorans, and both are biological
"machines" just as we are.


biggrin


Quote:

Objection: Relevance. This court is not here to examine the hopes of
any parent concerning their offspring, no matter the method of
deriving those offspring.

One can just as easily say of any officer
"He exemplifies the hopes and dreams of his parents and grandparents.
To serve human needs and interests. He is a collection of nerve cells,
muscle, and other tissue. His responses are dictated by an elaborate
interplay between genetics, upbringing, experience, and his own
interpretation of all those. His body came from the bodies of his parents."


lol Lovely!  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:42 pm
Steel Sterling
Now you can see why some people resort to
"controlling the microphone" or various logic fallacies when they try to
debate me informally....


biggrin


biggrin  

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:46 pm
"Intelligence, self awareness, consciousness"

I like that definition because it's broad. Maybe too broad, actually. But it will allow for no sentient being to be disregarded if another more specific definition would be put in place.

Odd that it is Maddox who uses it.  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:20 pm
Ok, this is a LOT simpler.

Commander Maddox didn't vanish after losing his case.

At least 2 other episodes showed him or mentioned him specifically.
Name either episode, or what the context was.  

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:22 pm
I can tell the general context, but not the episodes, so I let someone else answer this...  
Reply
Boldly Go - A Star Trek Guild

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