Guidelines Discussion

[TheDisreputableDog]

midara the happy banshee

I think there just needs to be a bit more attention paid to exactly how our tones will be interpreted.

As far as that goes...this is the Intarwebs. It's sometimes extremely difficult for people to determine tone unless a post is sprinkled with emoticons.  

[Starlock]

TeaDidikai

Nuri

i"]And I think Personal Responsibility has to go both ways--not just on the leaving person, but on the people (myself included) that led them too it.

And at the end of the day- can we actually cause them to leave?

YES.

I'm going to point a finger directly at you though I dislike doing so. You have been cause for me to want to leave this guild. Your actions nearly force me out of participation *regardless* of whether I want to leave or not. Regardless of the reasons, being placed on your ignore list is effectively censorship. True, you've got the right to that but it flies in the face of the ideals Nuri is talking about here. I don't ask that we neccesarily get along or that you displace that misplaced grudge you have against me. I DO, however, have serious issues with the fact that my participation in this guild is limited as a result.

Certainly some other arrangement could be devised that is more amiable? I do not relish the idea of creating NEW threads every time I want to respond to one you've created (whether I'm directly responding to you or not). Frankly it'll make everyone look bad and the Guild look bad; I don't want to do that. Yet you create so many of the threads and so many of the interesting threads that I'd be interesting in responding to, I might as WELL quit if I'm on your ignore list!! (sighs)  

[Pelta]

Starlock

TeaDidikai

Nuri

i"]And I think Personal Responsibility has to go both ways--not just on the leaving person, but on the people (myself included) that led them too it.

And at the end of the day- can we actually cause them to leave?

YES.

I'm going to point a finger directly at you though I dislike doing so. You have been cause for me to want to leave this guild. Your actions nearly force me out of participation *regardless* of whether I want to leave or not.

The point Tea was making is that it is your own choice whether to leave or stay. She does not control your mind. Being driven off is a choice you made.

And I thought this thread was to sort out problems, not to express bitterness. Fingerpointing was not the point of this thread.

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Regardless of the reasons, being placed on your ignore list is effectively censorship.

There is a reason Gaia has that feature, and if she has chosen to use it that's perfectly acceptable.

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True, you've got the right to that but it flies in the face of the ideals Nuri is talking about here.

No, actually it supports it. If someone perhaps felt they could not speak to someone else without getting insulting, then they have done the whole guild a favour by sparing us their clashes.

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I DO, however, have serious issues with the fact that my participation in this guild is limited as a result.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why. Is the blame really on anybody else, or is there something you can do about it? People are people. They are not in control of your life unless you allow them to be.

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Certainly some other arrangement could be devised that is more amiable?

This is something you have to work out, preferably not out in the open to disseminate an unfriendly atmosphere.

Your bitterness is nonconstructive. If we really want to sort this out we need constructive criticism, not fingerpointing.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Okay, I have an idea, it may not be a good one, but I at least want to throw it out here to be chewed on...

So, we may want to establish a code or set of civilities for the main forum...
And, if someone really wants to go full throttle on this, they can go to the Shock Therapy (which doesn't exist right now, but would be created as a reprieve location from the civilities) subforum...

The idea being, that the base forum is for education and assistance, with the Torture Room being for the more serious, gloves off, "hey, don't complain, you asked for it" discussion. Basically, making main rehab for info, explanation, clarification, and civil discorse, and bound by a certain mutually consented upon (or Guild owner mandated) set of boundaries. However, leaving an area where one can be as forceful and flavourful as they want...

Does this make sense?  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddler- I suggested that a page back or so, but the other way around.

Have a forum for those who need "kid gloves" as it were.

I suggest this format over yours because the core guild has more than just defluffing going for it. Rather than schism the mutual ground, where a number of us go and take part in without being "eb!l" by nature- it makes sense to have special rules for subforms. More control.

Heck- if we do it that way- I'll shell out for the subform myself.  

[Aesi]

Nuri

Starlock: I may strike the third guideline alltogether--it was an afterthought--maybe something about evaluating your sources instead? "Misti's Personal Pagan Website" probably isn't as reliable as say, "Gardner, in His Own Words" (which sadly, is reachable only through the wayback machine)

3nodding As I have recently humbled myself over, if you are trying to prove an opinion via source material, your opinion is only as good as your source, which is only as good as its provable background. The Internet's copy fo the Zohar, for instance. An admirable feat just typing that whole thing, but its host project doesn't offer translation notes, footnoting to the opinions of authorities, nor does it provide the original in any form so that their translation decisions can be considered by their readers.

Also, requiring sources to back up a person's debate position doesn't give much room to philosophy.  

[Henry Dorsett Case]

Aesi

The Internet's copy fo the Zohar, for instance. An admirable feat just typing that whole thing, but its host project doesn't offer translation notes, footnoting to the opinions of authorities, nor does it provide the original in any form so that their translation decisions can be considered by their readers.

I will actually contest you on the third point. Unless someone can prove that the Hebrew shown on the right-hand column at Zohar.com isn't the correct Hebrew text from the Zohar, the original is in fact available.

At least we don't have to worry about translating from Biblical Hebrew, since the Zohar isn't, relatively speaking, that old.  

[Fiddlers Green]

I do see your point Tea.
And acknowledge it.
Mine is more that the main forum is what most people will interact on...
Having an "Adults Club" or "Therapist Lounge" in the rehab facility may be of more benefit in maintaining the general tranquility, promoting education, and still allowing everyone to speak their mind, then forcing the new people to immediately funnel into a subforum to hide for safety while the de-fluffing is begun. ninja  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

I do see your point Tea.
And acknowledge it.
Mine is more that the main forum is what most people will interact on...
Having an "Adults Club" or "Therapist Lounge" in the rehab facility may be of more benefit in maintaining the general tranquility, promoting education, and still allowing everyone to speak their mind, then forcing the new people to immediately funnel into a subforum to hide for safety while the de-fluffing is begun. ninja

I think that this is a misapplication of how those of us with "teeth" act however.

We don't "attack" at random- slaughtering anything that we dislike.

The nature of a fuse is that it has to be lit and burned before the exploision.

As a result, I do think that a "kid glove" forum works better than an "angry pissy meanie" forum- if only because we aren't always angry pissy meanies- and people who are "sensitive" are going to be sensitive no matter what our intentions.  

[maenad nuri]

TeaDidikai

As a result, I do think that a "kid glove" forum works better than an "angry pissy meanie" forum- if only because we aren't always angry pissy meanies- and people who are "sensitive" are going to be sensitive no matter what our intentions.

Both suffer from the same problem: Is anyone going to actually read them?  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

I think that this is a misapplication of how those of us with "teeth" act however.

We don't "attack" at random- slaughtering anything that we dislike.

The nature of a fuse is that it has to be lit and burned before the exploision.

I didn't mean to imply that...
However, it may be beneficial to offer a public service sticky then, that explains what fuses belong to who. It is not at random, but it may seem so to those who don't know better. And we both know that there are some pretty quick burning fuses out there.

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As a result, I do think that a "kid glove" forum works better than an "angry pissy meanie" forum- if only because we aren't always angry pissy meanies- and people who are "sensitive" are going to be sensitive no matter what our intentions.

Yes, people who are sensitive are going to react as their sensitivities tell them to. Some with fear, others with pain, or anger, or caustic disdain.

Civilities cut both ways.
Not just those who are restraining their outrage, but also the person trampling on their nerve would be required to uphold them.
My point with the idea of civilities wasn't to throw a harsh restraint against anyone, but rather, to create a groundwork, within from all parties, as to what We, not I, not them, but rather, the concensus of Us want to see.

I want to clarify something for the record...
This thread has had a few moments of mudslinging, and the Hate on Tea and Reagun Show... that isn't where I'm coming from.
Heavens, and most people who converse with me know, if I have a direct problem with someone, it goes directly to them.
A problem has been addressed, and there is a querey as to how to fix it.
Now, I may be misunderstanding you (entirely possible, has happened before, will happen again), but you seem a tad defensive on this (I'm not saying you don't have reason to be, but I am saying that I ain't comin from an angle of hostility) and it may be causing reactionary responses.
I'll pretend I've never posted in a reactionary manner. xd

But I'm going to drop this down for a bit...

And go back to my original question, which I would like a little more response on...

What is the purpose of this Guild?  

[TeaDidikai]

Nuri

TeaDidikai

As a result, I do think that a "kid glove" forum works better than an "angry pissy meanie" forum- if only because we aren't always angry pissy meanies- and people who are "sensitive" are going to be sensitive no matter what our intentions.

Both suffer from the same problem: Is anyone going to actually read them?

Yes. How often is up to the individual.

At some point we have to weigh the effort verses benefit.

If people are saying that the core guild is "too confrontational", then it is there job to place their threads in the forum they desire.  

[TagraNar]

TeaDidikai

If people are saying that the core guild is "too confrontational", then it is there job to place their threads in the forum they desire.

So the solution to the guild being too confrontational is to change nothing but throw those who complain about it being confrontational into a new forum?  

[Kuroiban]

Fiddlers Green

The question we must ask is why does the guild exist?
If it is here to destroy falsehood, then that is one thing, and there is no limit to the level of venom that may be used, so long as no falsehood is weilded.
However, if the guild exists to teach...

I've always seen the guild as teaching thru the destruction of falsehood, so defining the rules via the purpose of the guild is a bit sticky...

Unless I'm TOTALLY on my own here. sweatdrop

TagraNar

TeaDidikai

When I came to the Rehab Guild, if I had quit when you, or Deo or Reagun had "hurt my feelings", I wouldn't have lasted very long.

Sometimes a challenge is what it takes to step up one's game and I think this guild provides that challenge.

Just because you've done it doesn't mean some others can. Some people are immediately turned off by overly confrontational atmospheres. Some aren't. Some can weather the storm.

We get into a problem here, as some people are a bit thick in the skull, and don't get "it" (whatever the it may be) until some blunt force is applied...but WHEN they get it...it's like the entire world has become that much clearer.

Okay...so if we're all nice about everything we don't offend the slightly more skittish...but we also risk letting people of different natures languish as a result.

Case in point being, I suppose, that you can't save everbody, and if you worry about it too much, you won't save anyone at all.

TheDisreputableDog

Even kindergarten doesn't let kids eat glue--at least ones worth their salt.

Brilliantly put. I gotta remember that one.
=-=
I'm not going to post the comment that made me think of this, out of respect for the nature of the discussion; no need for aggitating a situation.

A lot of the tension I see comes up when people take "You're wrong", and interpert it as "You're wrong, because you're an idiot". You see, I sorta take that as a personal problem.

People need to learn some personal responsiability. I'm not suggesting things become dog eat dog, but why is it anyone's job to walk around on eggshells, lest we offend someone? I see that, honestly, as a diservice.

Sometimes, you can not be subtle, unobtrusive, or delicate when delivering a point to someone. Sometimes, you need bells and whistles and the like. Hell, even a pair of crash cymbells.

I realize that that sometimes confrontational attitudes can APPEAR to be personal insults...but that's the problem. They only appear that way. The truth, is much simpler, and completely unoffensive.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel it's incorrect to have to moderate ourselves, because being direct and honest might offend someone.

Isn't searching for truth thru difficulty a tested, honed, and honored virtue for most Pagan cultures and paths?  

[TagraNar]

Kuroiban

A lot of the tension I see comes up when people take "You're wrong", and interpert it as "You're wrong, because you're an idiot". You see, I sorta take that as a personal problem.

If it were one or two people, then I'd buy that. If it's a major complaint, then there is something wrong that needs to be fixed.

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I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel it's incorrect to have to moderate ourselves, because being direct and honest might offend someone.

It's not just being direct and honest, though. If this has been a major complaint, then people are being direct and honest but hostile and confrontational.

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Isn't searching for truth thru difficulty a tested, honed, and honored virtue for most Pagan cultures and paths?

Should the difficulty really come from dealing with those who you are looking to for guidance? What is the problem with being civil about things? What's the major issue with it? Is it because you (quite general you, by the way) can't be as hostile as you like? Is it because you know of no other way to handle people?

I saw this guild as being one for guidance and information for those who either don't know any better or who actively wish to learn. I do not see this place as being all about debate, or bashing in the skulls of those who may be a bit too fluffy. They need education and guidance, not hostility, if that's the problem, and that hostility can easily turn people away from this place. The people that do not post here or who do not continue on their path here are likely finding it elsewhere, and quite possibly in misinformation, which would be directly opposed to what this guild does. Just because they leave here doesn't mean their path ends, merely that they look elsewhere where the people are more accepting. And, again, those accepting people may be giving the wrong sorts of information.

I'm all for bashing someone's skull in when they have been dealt with repeatedly and still just will not get it or refuse to get it. The problem comes when it happens when we don't even try to educate them first and go straight for the throat, as it were.

And, minor question, what is the average age of people here? I know Gaia is made up of people in the low teens, but don't know if that reflects in the membership here.