Knowing your dieties

[Pelta]

Vertigo_Kiwi

My opinions are that many texts in this world have been manipulated and changed.

Except that's not an opinion. That is a statement which can be proven with concrete evidence by comparing original sources with modern ones. It's like having an opinion that I'm a tree without comparing it to any sources that could verify it as fact.

Basically your opinion is blind without basing it on evidence.

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But I think it's better to say we're both correct, and stop thinking that every conversation is an argument which must be won.

But you can't both be correct when the two are essentially opposites. Bit of a problem there.

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Besides, we're wasting precious moments of life by attempting to alter opinions and thoughts which will never be changed.

That sounds awful stubborn. Why waste precious moments of our life in school or college learning new things when all they're trying to do is alter your opinion and thoughts?  

[Kuroiban]

iolitefire

Now then, let's talk about your little discussion. First, yeah, I do have assumptions. But guess what? So do you. Please don't play the pot calling the kettle black. It's really not workin' for ya.

Okay. Here is a tip that's going to help you, because you've tottally missed the point around here. This is not a place where people are going to word things in the exact manner that you would like to here them. They will address you in the exact way that will handle the matter as directly and clearly as possiable.

The difference between blunt and rude is slight, but it's my belief that the majority of people who you have been argueing with back and forth tred that line on the polite side of it]

iolitefire

All right! Part 2! Before I begin, let me apologize for a few of my comments. They were harsh and it was wrong of me to say those things against Tea. But consider it from my point of view, my first post about what I practice and someone starts accusing me of culture rape. Talk about considerate, no? I'm all about debate, but don't come in screaming at me please.

Second point: this is religion, and people here tend to take it serriously. Your tone makes it sounds as if proving you aren't ******** a culture over is a game.

Further, you came in here making accusations completely blindly. This is a guild, not the GD. You're visiting (or joining, as the case my apply) our house, and showed a complete lack of courtesy and ettiquette by treating Tea as if she was someone 14 year-old jack-a** who thinks that Wiki = Funkenwagnel.

So yeah, how people reacted to you was rough. So was your enterence and your behavior.

iolitefire

I'm also confused as to what you meant by having a right to follow a set of beliefs. Because I am an American, I really don't have any ethnic beliefs. This is a young country. Every religion practiced here (save Native American beliefs) comes from somewhere else. So, since I'm not Celtic, Greek, etc, does that mean that I can't worship any deities? Because I'm an American does that mean I have to be an athiest?

Contested; just because someone is American dosen't make someone cultureless. There are plenty of people who belong to closed cultures and were born here. Nor were they just Native Americans. Secondly, your point is somewhat invalid; as has been pointed out, not all cultures are closed. Thirdly, last I checked Christianity, Catholism, Bhuddism, Daoism, and many others are able to be practiced by anyone.

iolitefire

All right, lets start off now. So people who come into this forum hoping to learn and discuss with one another aren't respected. Wow. Do you treat people like this in real life? I'm just wondering. So if I have to earn the right to be respected then its fair to say then that I don't have to respect any of you until you prove it to me. And so far its not really working. All I've seen you and Tea do is critize other people without even trying to see their world view.

They are respectful. The truth, as it comes in anyone's eyes, isn't an easy thing to deal with.

When I came in here, I had a lot of stupid notions in my head. Were they bad to tell me I was wrong? ******** NO! I came in here wanting to practice Bushido. That's kind of difficult when you, ahem, aren't samurai. I didn't like being told "no, you're wrong, because they very thing you trying to follow around dogmaticly SAYS you can't", but in the end they were right.

You can believe anything you want. Dosen't mean your right. When you say something that is, as far as anyone can see, logically incorrect. You will be called on it, and if you can't prove yourself correct...well...guess what happens then?

Curiousity makes me ask the following: What did you think the name of this guild meant? If people see something that makes them say "WTF?"...well...they say so. It's a rehab center for people who went "dee dee dee" with their beliefs on religion. Done deal. Did you read anything else posted here? Or how people talk in here? If you had, maybe things would be working out better in this conversation.

TeaDidikai

Ummm... she isn't one to suffer fools lightly. Oh- don't tell me. They think the Morrigan is some light and love goddess- and why are we speaking about her in the singular?

NO! She's that hot gothic, bisexual demon chick that has hanky panky with her sister, Lilith, in Darkstalkers! Dur!

*Note: Any Goddesses who may or may not be reading what I write, please realize I'm not messing with you... sweatdrop
 

[TeaDidikai]

Vertigo_Kiwi

That's groovey and all but this is not the extended discussion, this is a place where we can share our opinions.

That doesn't mean we can't contest inaccurate assertions.

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My opinions are that many texts in this world have been manipulated and changed.

As Maggie pointed out- that isn't just an opinion. It is a statement that with a bit of effort, can be falsified.

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Besides, we're wasting precious moments of life by attempting to alter opinions and thoughts which will never be changed.

Welcome to the very core of what it is to be a Fluffy. Your subjective personal opinion < Reality.

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I believe that humans can be corrupt, I'm a cynic, that's my personality so that's where my thoughts come from.

Can be =/= Are.

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If you wish to bash that and critisize it then go ahead, but I'm finding all this incredibly pointless.

Bash? Good grief. Show me one personal attack on you that I have made.

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Especially since the only debate I've ever really cared about is "toots"

So- you're just spamming the guild? Cute.  

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

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That doesn't mean we can't contest inaccurate assertions.

So, you don't believe that any of the holy texts could have been manipulated or changed?

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As Maggie pointed out- that isn't just an opinion. It is a statement that with a bit of effort, can be falsified.

So, you don't believe that any of the holy texts could have been manipulated or changed?

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Welcome to the very core of what it is to be a Fluffy. Your subjective personal opinion < Reality.

Actually, I just meant that to be about you, not about the religious part of the discussion. Just because I dislike arguing with you doesn't mean I'm doomed to be fluffy, it just means I dislike having a convo with you.

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can be does not equal are

Why not? Can be leaves a possibility for humans to be corrupt. I like to have a sense of doubt and disbelief, I'm more of a skeptic.

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Bash? Good grief. Show me one personal attack on you that I have made.

I didn't said you have, I'm saying that you could.

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So- you're just spamming the guild? Cute.

Adorable, ain't it? Actually what I meant by that is the whole "toots" thing is the only arguement that really turned my mind upside down.  

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

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Except that's not an opinion. That is a statement which can be proven with concrete evidence by comparing original sources with modern ones. It's like having an opinion that I'm a tree without comparing it to any sources that could verify it as fact.

Well, give me a few years and I'll provide that evidence for you. However, the original point of this thread was to give our opinions about the questions she wanted answered. As of right now we are hijacking this thread so we can boast our egos by having arguments. I gave my thoughts and opinions, and right now my mind and body is too exhausted (because of health conditions) to give a full research report on the topic. Besides, my heart isn't even in it. The whole point would be just to satisfy you guys, and right now life is too short to worry about your needs and wants.

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But you can't both be correct when the two are essentially opposites. Bit of a problem there.

I meant that within our own minds we are both correct. I don't plan on meeting Tea in my life, and she doesn't plan on visiting me. I highly doubt our different perspectives will start a war, so I'm pretty sure we can continue our lives with different thoughts.

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That sounds awful stubborn. Why waste precious moments of our life in school or college learning new things when all they're trying to do is alter your opinion and thoughts?

Because that is one thing I actually enjoy. Arguing with people from the internet world isn't my cup of tea. And besides, I'm of the belief that people online just argue for the sake of arguing.  

[TeaDidikai]

Vertigo_Kiwi

So, you don't believe that any of the holy texts could have been manipulated or changed?

I challenged your assertions that "[by reading] any document really, you can see that people have changed it over the years to suit their opinions."

This is false. A number of texts such as the Sefer Torah haven't been altered over the thousands of years.

You made a blanket statement. You also continue to assume that because a number of texts have been altered, all of them have.

Guess what- one guy beats his wife. All men must beat their wives. Oh wait. Reality doesn't work like that does it?

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Actually, I just meant that to be about you, not about the religious part of the discussion. Just because I dislike arguing with you doesn't mean I'm doomed to be fluffy, it just means I dislike having a convo with you.

So why are you posting in a guild that is designed to have the kinds of conversations you dislike having with me?

It's not like you won't get the same argument from most of the other regulars. If you don't like your personal opinion contested (especially when it is fallacious) this isn't the best place to put it is it?

That is what journals and fluffy guilds are for.

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Why not? Can be leaves a possibility for humans to be corrupt. I like to have a sense of doubt and disbelief, I'm more of a skeptic.

See the above example as to why Can be =/= Are.

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I didn't said you have, I'm saying that you could.

And here we find the problem with your thought process. Just because something could happen doesn't mean it has nor does it mean it will.

At some point you need to start functioning in reality rather than possibility.

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Adorable, ain't it?

Not really. If all you want to do is pile on mindless prattle about your opinion, there is a chat thread and a whole subforum for that.  

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

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I challenged your assertions that "[by reading] any document really, you can see that people have changed it over the years to suit their opinions."

This is false. A number of texts such as the Sefer Torah haven't been altered over the thousands of years.

You made a blanket statement. You also continue to assume that because a number of texts have been altered, all of them have.

Guess what- one guy beats his wife. All men must beat their wives. Oh wait. Reality doesn't work like that does it?

Alright, I'll agree that many haven't, but there's still the fact that many have. And because that many have there is still that possibility that the texts people may be reading are not the texts of their gods, so therefore it is not really what their gods may want. But either way, because I'm such a pessimist, I still have that belief what -maybe- even if a text hasn't been altered, it still could have been made up by someone who wanted power. But, that's just how my mind works.

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At some point you need to start functioning in reality rather than possibility.

If only you knew how true that was! Listen, I know I have a problem with that, that's why I'm on medication to alter my thoughts. That is why I really don't see the point in arguing this anymore, I have a mental disorder which makes me NOT function in reality. (edit: if you don't mind, I'd like to print off that quote and hang it on my wall as a reminder, do I have your permission?)  

[Pelta]

Vertigo_Kiwi

missmagpie

Except that's not an opinion. That is a statement which can be proven with concrete evidence by comparing original sources with modern ones. It's like having an opinion that I'm a tree without comparing it to any sources that could verify it as fact.

Well, give me a few years and I'll provide that evidence for you.

So basically you made a generalisation without any backup at all.

Look everyone! I'm a tree! I'll prove it to you later but right now I'm still a tree!

See what I mean?

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The whole point would be just to satisfy you guys, and right now life is too short to worry about your needs and wants.

Um. No. The point is to learn, which is what this guild is all about. If you don't want to learn, don't come here.

Believe me I get very little satisfaction out of debating with fluffies online.

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But you can't both be correct when the two are essentially opposites. Bit of a problem there.

I meant that within our own minds we are both correct.

Except there's a difference. Tea is correct and has stated evidence that contradicts your statement. You say you're correct without having a stitch to back you up.

One is a well-informed opinion. The other is mental masturbation.

And a note about generalisations: It only takes one example to prove you wrong.

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That sounds awful stubborn. Why waste precious moments of our life in school or college learning new things when all they're trying to do is alter your opinion and thoughts?

Because that is one thing I actually enjoy. Arguing with people from the internet world isn't my cup of tea. And besides, I'm of the belief that people online just argue for the sake of arguing.

Again with the generalisations. I don't argue for the sake of arguing and thus have just proven you wrong.

Do you even know what this guild is about? This entire guild was created as a learning experience for people who want to know better. This makes its function very similar to that of a school or college. If you don't want to learn you shouldn't be here.

Honestly, I'm not attacking you. I teach a musical instrument. One of the most essential parts of teaching is pointing out where a student is wrong and showing them how to fix it. This does not mean I have a personal vendetta against any of my students. Indeed it would be unfair to let them make mistakes without correcting them. They realise the mistake, adjust, learn and move on.

To learn anything you have to have the capacity to admit when you're wrong.  

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

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So basically you made a generalisation without any backup at all.

Look everyone! I'm a tree! I'll prove it to you later but right now I'm still a tree!

See what I mean?

Si. But what I meant was not specific, what I meant that anyone could have changed text (even without us knowing) and because of that I'm just a skeptic. I'll admit, I'm a fluffy, but on the opposite spectrum. Instead of believing everything I read, I find it difficult to believe anything I read.

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Um. No. The point is to learn, which is what this guild is all about. If you don't want to learn, don't come here.

And I am trying to learn, just give me time.

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And a note about generalisations: It only takes one example to prove you wrong.

But I never meant to say (whether I did or not I can't recall) that ALL texts have been messed with. In my little mind because some texts have been changed means that it's difficult for me to trust all of them.  

[Pelta]

Vertigo_Kiwi

Si. But what I meant was not specific, what I meant that anyone could have changed text (even without us knowing) and because of that I'm just a skeptic. I'll admit, I'm a fluffy, but on the opposite spectrum. Instead of believing everything I read, I find it difficult to believe anything I read.

In the Chester Beatty library in Dublin are the oldest known manuscripts of the book of John. These are still legible. If you really felt like learning ancient Greek you could go compare your version to these originals.

Tea's example of the Sepher Torah is even better.

Automatically assuming everything is wrong is just as bad as assuming everything is right.  

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

missmagpie

Automatically assuming everything is wrong is just as bad as assuming everything is right.

Yes, which is why I said, "I'm a fluffy, but on the opposite spectrum. Instead of believing everything I read, I find it difficult to believe anything I read."  

[CuAnnan]

Vertigo_Kiwi

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Once more with English please?

Well, that certainly looked like English to me. I'll write it with a Boston accent next time.

That's nice.
It looked like a fairly badly formed sentence with improper grammar, syntax and clauses to me.
And considering I've been trained proffessionally to read sentences as such, what with my being dylsexic, I'm gonna go with the rules of English over your opinion.

Vertigo_Kiwi

And the boy wins a cigar. However, I highly doubt that saying the word "toots" will bring the UN crashing down.

Get overly familiar with me again and I'll report you for trolling.
I am a man.
Not a boy.
I am nearly 25.

Vertigo_Kiwi

It's common sense

So we're appealing to common snese now?

Vertigo_Kiwi

Wait.. how will you know if that's what they wanted since they're dead.

Unless, as has been pointed out numerous times, there are first hand copies.
Written by the author.
You have no argument.
Stop posting on its side until you do.

Vertigo_Kiwi

Even better point- it will probably NEVER be the original text because many texts,etc. were shared by spoken word.

Appeal to potential again.
You're really quite bad at this whole "debate thing" aren't you.

Vertigo_Kiwi

That, ladies and gents, is what my argument is about. NOT about translation errors or other things which have been mentioned.

And, again, it's based on appeal to common sense or appeal to potential.
No founding for it.
IE, it sucks.

Vertigo_Kiwi

Please do, I believe I'd find some erotic pleasure in that.

Reported.  

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

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Get overly familiar with me again and I'll report you for trolling.
I am a man.
Not a boy.
I am nearly 25.

Most not be a popular phrase used in your part of the world then, either that or you are attempting to be just like Tea. Go look at any 1930's movie and you will see that phrase being used, and the government and people of conservative America did not fall apart. It is a simple phrase that means : "Correct!"
"and the boy wins a cigar" does not literally mean you are a boy, or means that I will literally give you a cigar. Sorry that you thought it was literal, perhaps you were looking forward to that cigar.

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Unless, as has been pointed out numerous times, there are first hand copies.
Written by the author.
You have no argument.
Stop posting on its side until you do.

I already said something about this, start reading other people's posts and my replies to them.

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You're really quite bad at this whole "debate thing" aren't you.

I'm really quite bad at the whole existence thing really. Also, I wasn't the one who wanted this argument, as I've stated before I think arguing over beliefs is pointless. All I stated in my OP was that I think people can easily change things. (or something similar to that)

actually, here's a quote: So, I find it incredibly difficult to figure out what the gods want, and not just what some people want.
How it got to all this drama is beyond me.

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Reported.

Thank you, now please get a sense of humor and/or stop impersonated Tipper Gore.

And when I do get punished I will take great pride in it and boast as if it were my first born.  

[Pelta]

Vertigo_Kiwi

Most not be a popular phrase used in your part of the world then

Actually, it isn't.

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Go look at any 1930's movie and you will see that phrase being used, and the government and people of conservative America did not fall apart.

You really do like the appeal to popularity thing. Do you always let everyone else think for you?

Not to mention we aren't exactly in the 1930s any more. The Marx brothers may be fantastic (Just watched The Big Store) but they're also all dead.

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Thank you, now please get a sense of humor and/or stop impersonated Tipper Gore.

Now please stop flaming, get a sense of respect and stop impersonating Groucho Marx.... badly. We've been more than patient with you. This behaviour is bordering on infantile.  

[Vertigo_Kiwi]

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Actually, it isn't.

Does that give him an excuse to take it literally?

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Not to mention we aren't exactly in the 1930s any more. The Marx brothers may be fantastic (Just watched The Big Store) but they're also all dead.

Terrible movie, try The Cocoanuts but fast forward through the first 5 minutes.

Note, if we all ignored the ideas of people who were dead, where would we be? I certainly would still like to have the thoughts of Martin Luther King, Jr around, wouldn't you? Simply forgetting about things because they do not exist anymore is just not right.

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Now please stop flaming, get a sense of respect and stop impersonating Groucho Marx.... badly. We've been more than patient with you. This behaviour is bordering on infantile.

Please, if I were impersonating anyone it'd be Bettie Page. Let's stop hijacking this thread, and if we must we can take this to PMs. It's not even talking about the original post anymore. Actually, it stopped talking about that a long time ago.