British views on abortion.

[Boolean Julian]

and_solo_said

whapcapn

and_solo_said

Indie_Chick

and_solo_said

Gaulia

Indie_Chick

a raped 12 year old should have an abortion, definitely, and so should one who wasnt raped. She's been stupid and got herself in a mess, but really se should get herself out of it.

Yeah. I think that anyone who's been raped should have an abortion - unless they actually feel that they can cope with the stress of actually having the baby. And hats off to anyone who does - that is a strong person.
Pregnant kids who weren't raped, I agree, should have an abortion. It's too young to have your hands tied down by a baby.

They should teach you something useful in school. The consequences of having a kid when you're still in your early teens being one of them.

If you get pregnant at 12, it is your own fault, have the baby, put it up for adoption, and learn to to be so damn thick

oh shutup you tosser.

I know several people (chavs, obviously) who have had abortions at 12. and hey werent raped. WHilst they are stupid, they arent ready for that. ANd I agree with gaulia that schools should teach more useful stuff like that.

If they are mature enough to have sex, then they are mature enough to have a child

Come on, Owen, that's bollocks and you know it. It's only true in the most strictly biological way.

I am fully aware that that is bollocks, but they should know that, and if they don't, consequences are the best teachers

That's a little...inhumane...
Anyway, I don't really have any strong opinions on the morality of abortion. All I know is that it is the lesser of two evils.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

It makes me sad that it doesn't look like anyone seemed to read my post. It isn't the best post I've ever made but I think I brought up some valid points.

Here's another important point: You can't force anybody to give up any part of their body for someone else, even if that someone else will die. No one can force me to give my brother a kidney, even if I was the one who knackered his first kidney. That's the law. So why is it okay for people to think women should be forced to go through the extreme side-effects of pregnancy for a fetus?  

[and_solo_said]

Foetus In Fetu

It makes me sad that it doesn't look like anyone seemed to read my post. It isn't the best post I've ever made but I think I brought up some valid points.

Here's another important point: You can't force anybody to give up any part of their body for someone else, even if that someone else will die. No one can force me to give my brother a kidney, even if I was the one who knackered his first kidney. That's the law. So why is it okay for people to think women should be forced to go through the extreme side-effects of pregnancy for a fetus?

That is an enntirely different matter, you cannot give a kidney to someone, than demand it back, why should you be allowed to give life to a child, then take it away again?
Besides, sex is for the purpose of getting pregnant, you have sex, you take the risk  

[Boolean Julian]

Foetus In Fetu

It makes me sad that it doesn't look like anyone seemed to read my post. It isn't the best post I've ever made but I think I brought up some valid points.

Here's another important point: You can't force anybody to give up any part of their body for someone else, even if that someone else will die. No one can force me to give my brother a kidney, even if I was the one who knackered his first kidney. That's the law. So why is it okay for people to think women should be forced to go through the extreme side-effects of pregnancy for a fetus?

I would have thought that you, of all people, would spell foetus correctly.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

and_solo_said

That is an enntirely different matter, you cannot give a kidney to someone, than demand it back, why should you be allowed to give life to a child, then take it away again?

It's exactly the same. Before a kidney operation you can withdraw consent at any time while the kidney is still a part of your body and decisions regarding its fate fall within your bodily integrity; after the operation it is part of another person's body and taking it out violates their bodily integrity, not yours. Keeping a fetus inside a woman who doesn't want it there is a violation of bodily integrity.

Even if the woman 'consented', she can still withdraw consent.

and_solo_said

Besides, sex is for the purpose of getting pregnant, you have sex, you take the risk

Firstly, who gave sex a purpose anyway? Secondly, I would have thought that if sex were solely for the purpose of getting pregnant that unprotected sex would always result in pregnancy. As it is, there are only about three days of a cycle in which a woman might become pregnant and yet she is willing to have sex at any time during her cycle. Even if a woman has sex when she is fertile, she may not conceive or a zygote may not implant.

Yeah, that's what I call a powerful cause/effect relationship.

There's actually a lot of evidence to suggest that the primary role of sex is as a bonding ritual between adults and a way of solidifying relationships (read: abstaining from sex is not appropriate in long-term, loving relationships).  

[Boolean Julian]

You did it again!  

[and_solo_said]

Foetus In Fetu

and_solo_said

That is an enntirely different matter, you cannot give a kidney to someone, than demand it back, why should you be allowed to give life to a child, then take it away again?

It's exactly the same. Before a kidney operation you can withdraw consent at any time while the kidney is still a part of your body and decisions regarding its fate fall within your bodily integrity; after the operation it is part of another person's body and taking it out violates their bodily integrity, not yours. Keeping a fetus inside a woman who doesn't want it there is a violation of bodily integrity.

Even if the woman 'consented', she can still withdraw consent.

and_solo_said

Besides, sex is for the purpose of getting pregnant, you have sex, you take the risk

Firstly, who gave sex a purpose anyway? Secondly, I would have thought that if sex were solely for the purpose of getting pregnant that unprotected sex would always result in pregnancy. As it is, there are only about three days of a cycle in which a woman might become pregnant and yet she is willing to have sex at any time during her cycle. Even if a woman has sex when she is fertile, she may not conceive or a zygote may not implant.

Yeah, that's what I call a powerful cause/effect relationship.

There's actually a lot of evidence to suggest that the primary role of sex is as a bonding ritual between adults and a way of solidifying relationships (read: abstaining from sex is not appropriate in long-term, loving relationships).

1) Consent is given when she has sex
2)Humans are one of the few species to enjoy sex, most animals feel extreme pain. It is a privilage, not a purpose  

[Foetus In Fetu]

whapcapn

I would have thought that you, of all people, would spell foetus correctly.

'Fetus' is the only correct spelling, actually; 'foetus' is a nineteenth-century pseudo-Greek (or Latin, I forget) misspelling. Let me see if I can find a source.

EDIT: Here we go.

Quote:

The word fetus comes directly from the Latin fetus meaning "offspring" or "young one". The pseudo-Greek foetus is thus etymologically incorrect. In general, the medical community only permits the spelling fetus, but the spelling foetus persists in the wider community, most notably in Britain, and is accepted in some dictionaries.

 

[Boolean Julian]

Foetus In Fetu

whapcapn

I would have thought that you, of all people, would spell foetus correctly.

'Fetus' is the only correct spelling, actually; 'foetus' is a nineteenth-century pseudo-Greek (or Latin, I forget) misspelling. Let me see if I can find a source.

EDIT: Here we go.

Quote:

The word fetus comes directly from the Latin fetus meaning "offspring" or "young one". The pseudo-Greek foetus is thus etymologically incorrect. In general, the medical community only permits the spelling fetus, but the spelling foetus persists in the wider community, most notably in Britain, and is accepted in some dictionaries.

Is that encyclopedia reliable?
Anyway, why is your name the incorrect spelling if what you say is true?  

[Foetus In Fetu]

and_solo_said

1) Consent is given when she has sex

That's complete and utter bollocks. It insults me deeply to hear an intelligent boy say that.

If consent were given when a woman has sex then every woman would have an innate understanding of this. Consent to pregnancy is not implied in the act of sex, it never has been and the only reason people believe it has is because it gives them perceived leverage to force women to gestate. Nonetheless, even if consent to pregnancy were implied in the act of sex (even in women who use several forms of contraception? That's tantamount to saying people who wear seatbelts and get into car crashes should refuse medical treatment and live with the punishment they brought on themselves for getting in a car) it can still be withdrawn; just like a woman can withdraw consent to sex at any time during foreplay and even the act itself.

and_solo_said

2)Humans are one of the few species to enjoy sex, most animals feel extreme pain. It is a privilage, not a purpose

Extreme pain? Source? I never learned this in my mammalian reproduction classes.

I fail to see your point, anyway. The fact that humans feel pleasure when they have sex and have sex socially is evidence for sex as a bonding ritual over and above a means of reproducing. Note that other animals who experience pleasure in the act of sex also use it as a bonding ritual, namely dolphins and certain types of primate.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

whapcapn

Is that encyclopedia reliable?
Anyway, why is your name the incorrect spelling if what you say is true?

I don't know, but I've read it on several different websites since it tends to be brought up, uh, quite often, so I suspect it's true.

Idiosyncrasy. I like 'foetus' more than 'fetus', I think it looks nice, and I tend to show blatant disregard for correctness with regards to spelling, grammar or technicality for the sake of aesthetic or auditory pleasure. ^_^  

[and_solo_said]

Foetus In Fetu

and_solo_said

1) Consent is given when she has sex

That's complete and utter bollocks. It insults me deeply to hear an intelligent boy say that.

If consent were given when a woman has sex then every woman would have an innate understanding of this. Consent to pregnancy is not implied in the act of sex, it never has been and the only reason people believe it has is because it gives them perceived leverage to force women to gestate. Nonetheless, even if consent to pregnancy were implied in the act of sex (even in women who use several forms of contraception? That's tantamount to saying people who wear seatbelts and get into car crashes should refuse medical treatment and live with the punishment they brought on themselves for getting in a car) it can still be withdrawn; just like a woman can withdraw consent to sex at any time during foreplay and even the act itself.

and_solo_said

2)Humans are one of the few species to enjoy sex, most animals feel extreme pain. It is a privilage, not a purpose

Extreme pain? Source? I never learned this in my mammalian reproduction classes.

I fail to see your point, anyway. The fact that humans feel pleasure when they have sex and have sex socially is evidence for sex as a bonding ritual over and above a means of reproducing. Note that other animals who experience pleasure in the act of sex also use it as a bonding ritual, namely dolphins and certain types of primate.

1)I will thank you not to flame me for my views
2)The woman can take away consent in foreplay and during the act, but at the point of ejaculation, it is too late. Having an abortion is like ripping open the stitches and riping the donated organ out.
3)Pleasure is not evidence, it is a cause. Just because you know a cause for a phallasy, does not mean that you can dismiss it.
4)Dolphins reproduce stare
5)About the car crash thing, if they went driving into other cars for the fun of it, they deserve to die  

[Foetus In Fetu]

and_solo_said

1)I will thank you not to flame me for my views

I was flaming your views, I wasn't flaming you. If you can call that a flame.

and_solo_said

2)The woman can take away consent in foreplay and during the act, but at the point of ejaculation, it is too late. Having an abortion is like ripping open the stitches and riping the donated organ out.

You seem to have missed the embedded point. Continuing to have sex with a woman after she has withdrawn consent is rape, and a violation of bodily integrity; I wasn't referring to preventing pregnancy at all.

Is abortion okay if a couple were using the pull-out method?

Besides which, no it isn't. Taking the donated organ out is a violation of the donatee's bodily integrity. Even if the donator wants the organ back, not allowing them to have it is not a violation of their bodily integrity. Forcing a woman to gestate is a violation of her bodily integrity.

and_solo_said

3)Pleasure is not evidence, it is a cause. Just because you know a cause for a phallasy, does not mean that you can dismiss it.

Please make yourself clear, I'm still missing the point. Pleasure doesn't cause us to reproduce.

and_solo_said

4)Dolphins reproduce stare

But they don't reproduce every time they have sex. In fact, I believe most evidence points to dolphins not thinking "Wow, I want baby dolphins, let's have sex," and rather to dolphins thinking "Wow, I want sex".

and_solo_said

5)About the car crash thing, if they went driving into other cars for the fun of it, they deserve to die

...
I fail to see how that has any relation to anything. You're going back to the "The woman brought it on herself," idea, which is completely blown out of the water if the woman was using contraception.  

[Vanilla Pod]

I really, absolutely don't see why abortion should not be legal. And I don't just mean if a teenager's been raped. If you use that sort of thing as a qualifier, what you're basically doing is punishing people for having sex. Yes, people should use birth control if they're not ready for kids - but that's not 100% effective. And even if they weren't using it, I don't see how it can be right to force them to have the thing. Get it as early as possible, and it isn't technically alive. Oh, sure, it has the potential for life, but if we were following those criteria, we'd have to penalise guys every time they wanked and got rid of several million potential lives.  

[Boolean Julian]

Vanilla Pod

I really, absolutely don't see why abortion should not be legal. And I don't just mean if a teenager's been raped. If you use that sort of thing as a qualifier, what you're basically doing is punishing people for having sex. Yes, people should use birth control if they're not ready for kids - but that's not 100% effective. And even if they weren't using it, I don't see how it can be right to force them to have the thing. Get it as early as possible, and it isn't technically alive. Oh, sure, it has the potential for life, but if we were following those criteria, we'd have to penalise guys every time they wanked and got rid of several million potential lives.

"As early as posssible" is the tricky point in what you say. It's very difficult to say when abortion should no longer be legal. The problem initially stems from the fact that human life is analog rather than digital - there is no one point at which something becomes a human; rather, it is a gradual process that happens over time. There's no definite one temporal point we can label as the moment human life begins.