Preps vs Goth! The showdown.

[cold.wire.lips]

(clears his throat)
(cougharchitecturecough)

i agree with Neon in the sense of the modern subculture's development from punk, but instead of raging against the machine or whathaveyou, certain groups chose to reverse the machine, and drew lifestyle properties from the actual Gothic era of romanticism. punks choose the see the world as a cruel and violent place and act accordingly, goths see the world as a cruel and violent place and seek to recreate at least their portion of the world.
of course, with the onset of the multiplicit modern goth scenes, much of that violence has been intermingled, and on many occasions a variation of the punk-violence simply draws from this advent of lifestyle choices, like fashion.
as Lys said, 'goth' is a complete subculture in the sense of its heart in romanticism, which was an entire cultural movement of intellectual reform and philosophy, and the creation of the subculture by people of similar free-movement.  

[Gaylord Mule 3]

lysseee

GilAskan

[Rosetta Stoned]

I disagree. Saying that goths must reject most things mainstream isn't right, I always thought goths were allowed to like what they like, or they're just as bad as the preps who do everything their friends are doing. But they have to like something gothic and not be the same as everyone else

Also, I think a goth is someone who listens to goth bands and dresses like a goth (Although the fashion has significantly changed since it first started) . I thought that was rather obvious.

I would agree with you on multiple points.

1) I STRONGLY agree with the statement that goths don't try to avoid trends, but do what they want.

Why? Purposefully being unique and avoiding trends is no different than following them: you're still being controlled by what's popular. If khakis are popular, you wear jeans. When jeans get popular, you stop wearing them. How is that not being controlled by trends?

2) Overall, after contemplating it for years, I would say that the goth-culture formed around the music scene, and therefore, being goth has more to do with the music scene than anything. I would say with some confidence, in my opinion, a goth is an avid fan of goth-rock (and related genres) and a supporter of the gothrock scene.

3) However, I wouldn't entirely say that fashion is a factor. I think that many goths have similar tastes in fashion, and many goths are influenced by the fashion of the music-scene, but I wouldn't say that it's really a part of being goth. It's a characteristic that many goths share, but not "criteria" so to speak.

4) As said, I think musical affiliation is the primary factor in being a goth. However, that's not to say that that's the only similarity between goths. I think that goths tend to be intellectual, artistic, sensitive, and creative. I wouldn't say that those are factors of "what is a goth", but are common traits that many goths share.

as much as it's tempting to think that the subculture arised from the music genre and it's fans, i believe it's the other way around in this case. subcultures are often created by deviants and outcast intellectuals, goth just found it's outbreak, and common ground through the musical genre. goth is, in fact, a complete subculture, meaning it defines a complete lifestyle. many such subcultures have music as their main medium of expression, while the goth subculture has expressed itself through many other (poetry, painting, literature, design, cinema,etc.) as well as music.

goths are not distinguishable by their intellectuality, artistic sense, or anything similar, i'm afraid. it's just that -as i said- subcultures are created by such people, goth not being the only case. beatniks had intellectuals and were artistic, sensitive and creative, hippies -likewise. even the punks had such extraordinary people, for without them there can be no subculture. as for the question of what differentiates them, it's completely about the philosophy, and on that end i agree with Neon~Starshine wholeheartedly.

The sub culture (oh i am so sick of calling it that, it is a culture like any other) has incorporated many things over the years but realy we must admit that it was basicaly born of intelectuals poets and artists who all had the same reaction to goth music and started haning in the places where this new, translike dark melody was being played. it has evolved since into many of it's own tangeants (metal goth, industrial, babydoll, diva, glam, Ubergoth, gothpunk etc.) each with thier own similar and yet unique views on the world. but to call us unique is definitely misslableing. we are as goths all similar enough to be grouped, however we are set apart from what the rest of our respective societies deem to be "normal" thus we get viewed as individuals by the polite Freaks by the rude and Hostile Deviants by the paranoied and the closed minded.  

[cold.wire.lips]

Lazarus The Resurected

The sub culture (oh i am so sick of calling it that, it is a culture like any other) has incorporated many things over the years but realy we must admit that it was basicaly born of intelectuals poets and artists who all had the same reaction to goth music and started haning in the places where this new, translike dark melody was being played. it has evolved since into many of it's own tangeants (metal goth, industrial, babydoll, diva, glam, Ubergoth, gothpunk etc.) each with thier own similar and yet unique views on the world. but to call us unique is definitely misslableing. we are as goths all similar enough to be grouped, however we are set apart from what the rest of our respective societies deem to be "normal" thus we get viewed as individuals by the polite Freaks by the rude and Hostile Deviants by the paranoied and the closed minded.

i'm afraid you've completely missed the point.
also: an ethnic, regional, economic, or social group exhibiting characteristic patterns of behavior sufficient to distinguish it from others within an embracing culture or society.  

[lysseee]

i have no idea why you quoted me, do you agree or disagree with anything said, or did you just not-want to post on your own?

Lazarus The Resurected

lysseee

as much as it's tempting to think that the subculture arised from the music genre and it's fans, i believe it's the other way around in this case. subcultures are often created by deviants and outcast intellectuals, goth just found it's outbreak, and common ground through the musical genre. goth is, in fact, a complete subculture, meaning it defines a complete lifestyle. many such subcultures have music as their main medium of expression, while the goth subculture has expressed itself through many other (poetry, painting, literature, design, cinema,etc.) as well as music.

goths are not distinguishable by their intellectuality, artistic sense, or anything similar, i'm afraid. it's just that -as i said- subcultures are created by such people, goth not being the only case. beatniks had intellectuals and were artistic, sensitive and creative, hippies -likewise. even the punks had such extraordinary people, for without them there can be no subculture. as for the question of what differentiates them, it's completely about the philosophy, and on that end i agree with Neon~Starshine wholeheartedly.

The sub culture (oh i am so sick of calling it that, it is a culture like any other) has incorporated many things over the years but realy we must admit that it was basicaly born of intelectuals poets and artists who all had the same reaction to goth music and started haning in the places where this new, translike dark melody was being played. it has evolved since into many of it's own tangeants (metal goth, industrial, babydoll, diva, glam, Ubergoth, gothpunk etc.) each with thier own similar and yet unique views on the world. but to call us unique is definitely misslableing. we are as goths all similar enough to be grouped, however we are set apart from what the rest of our respective societies deem to be "normal" thus we get viewed as individuals by the polite Freaks by the rude and Hostile Deviants by the paranoied and the closed minded.

a culture within a bigger and dominant one is called a sub-culture. so when you say a movement/trend/whatever is a sub-culture, you're saying it IS a culture, but it's within a more dominent one. it's not a term to belittle the said group. Gabriel gave the dictionary definition, if you're interested.

i think you're agreeing with me on how the subculture came to be, but i really cannot be sure, either you missed my point or i'm misreading your attitude. so i'll simplify it; the core of the 'culture' were intellectuals who were probably symphatetic towards punk but had a different attitude. and it found it's break through the music, which, basically brought these people together. there is a philisophical commonground for goths, it's distinct enough to seperate them from others.

it's not just goths who are set apart from the society, not all outcasts are goth, there are many other subcultures within every society most of them consisting of outcasts often varying in amount and severity. outcasts have been there since the first time human animal managed to establish a society.

goth would not have been so falsely wide-spread and watered down if it wasn't for the shocking appearance and the attitude that is usually misread as a romantic fascination with death. it being so shocking attracts adoloescents who aim to establish themselves as individuals in the society, and often pursue the recognition of their individuality by others through shocking them and appearing to be as different as possible... and you get the 5/6 of this guild.

also, everyone who is not-outcast are not paranoided and close-minded.  

[ReverofeviL]

The wanna-be goths have given us such a bad name. Seriously, there are way more fakes than reals nowadays, it sickens me.  

[cold.wire.lips]

ReverofeviL

The wanna-be goths have given us such a bad name. Seriously, there are way more fakes than reals nowadays, it sickens me.

now why should it matter to you whether children wear a certain style of clothing or, more particularly, what people associate with your 'name?' a person who truly rejects common society is equally uninterested in their opinions.
what exactly do you mean by 'wanna-be?'  

[GilAskan]

cold.wire.lips

ReverofeviL

The wanna-be goths have given us such a bad name. Seriously, there are way more fakes than reals nowadays, it sickens me.

now why should it matter to you whether children wear a certain style of clothing or, more particularly, what people associate with your 'name?' a person who truly rejects common society is equally uninterested in their opinions.
what exactly do you mean by 'wanna-be?'

I suspect she means mallgoths, the "OMFG I LUV MAIRLIN MANSIN HES THE KING OF GOTH I ALSO LUV HOT TAPUC MCR AND STUF. BUT IM ONLEE HAF GOTH BCUZ I DONT WORSHUP SATAN LOL" type.  

[cold.wire.lips]

again, i pose the question: so?
'goth' as it exists now is only a collection of certain things... styles, muscial tastes, ideologies... to name a few, and no one person is going to embody them all-- especially not to the satisfaction of others, who embody different aspects.
the subculture of goth is simply a top hat in which are several folded pieces of paper with a label or personality description written on each. the modern goth draws at random from this hat, attributes their chosen characteristics to their public self, and is 'goth.'
to reiterate: goth is just a collection of personality traits in varying areas.
most people tend to possess many of these characteristics, some less than others, and this is the primary source of argument; some possess certain traits that they believe are more valuable to the 'goth' persona than others, traits that make a person more 'truly goth.'

to me, it's all just varying layers. this is why we have various names, such as your 'mallgoth.' [which, by-the-bi, is a regional title; no malls in england.]
a person who dresses in the gothic style, or at least some perversion of, possesses a characteristic of the 'goth' subculture and therefore may apply that label to their collection of traits that compose their personality.
the difference that Reverof eviL is citing, i think, is when a person possesses more 'goth' characteristics than not, and therefore labels their personality goth, rather than simply an aspect; the collection of their characteristics is composed of more 'goth' attributes than anything else.
the gothic subculture is structured by these people, whose entire personalities are constructed from goth characteristics, and there is no way to define any set parametres for 'gothic' because no single person possesses all characteristics, as i said-- there's far too many and some are even contradictory. gothic subculture is a swirling mass of venn diagrammes, maintained in general by the communities erected from social similarities-- yes, kiddies, trends.
therefore no one is actually 'wanna-be,' they're just applying a certain characteristic to themselves that they happen to like, and possibly latching onto the rest of the subculture with plans to grow into it and develop their personalities in such a way that attributes more and more traits until they become a goth personality, rather than a personality with goth characteristics.

conclusion: there are no 'fakers,' <******** off. the only -- and i mean only -- case of gothic fakedom would be a person consciously applying a gothic characteristic with the intention of deceiving external perceptions of their overall personality into believing their personality as a whole is composed primarily of those characteristics, without any actual interest in the traits they lack. this is a malicious and purposeful, aggressive method of interacting with society, and it's highly unlikely you'll find it in a bunch of teenagers who like to wear black and want people to accept them. those kids are merely latching on to different, seemingly-random aspects of different subcultures -- drawing as many papers out of as many hats as they can, as it were -- in order to arrange a personality they most approve of for themselves... and being children, they're not exactly wise or methodical about it. babies explore the world through sensory and tactile relation, teenagers explore the world through social and personality relation. they are not malicious, they are certainly not trying to deceive you; they're just trying not to deceive themselves, and dabbling into some things people have already crafted their personalities around-- and because those people worked so hard at crafting their personalities, they're judgemental and bitter towards these teenage explorers who threaten the delusions of 'originality' they've maintained.

back to my final point: so? so what if a bunch of teenagers want to dress like you do? it's not as though the way you dress hasn't already been done millions of times, and it's not as though you didn't first start dressing the way you do because you saw someone else doing it and liked it.
true gothic personalities are built internally-- by latching onto styles and ideals they like and applying those external things to themselves, solely because they like them. i'm sorry if it threatens your delicate ideas of originality and elitism of relation that other children do exactly what you did, but if you really were 'goth,' it wouldn't bother you in the slightest because you wouldn't require your relation to society to define your personality construct.

actually, i rescind that statement. that's exactly what being goth is: requiring your relation to society to define your personality construct. kudos, then, to your attacks on your peers for their stuggles in their existentialist world, you bastards. it certainly makes the ride better for you, doesn't it? and after you fought so hard to be unique by appropriating behavioural tendences you observed into your own actions, to be separate from the damnable society that condemned you for your preferences-- now it's your turn to mock, isn't it?
go, go social darwinism, go-go, go darwin, go...  

[GilAskan]

I agree with you on every point.

My "mallgoth" statement was meant to be a comedic allusion, not an inflammatory outburst against "posers", as they are often called.

I agree, a person who refers to themselves as a goth is one whose individual character traits are majoratively associated with goth traits. The absense of certain traits would not make one a "fake goth". If one bites into a bitter apple, is it not an apple because it is not sweet? No, it is still an apple, even if it does not taste like one. If an apple has all the characteristics of an apple save for color, is it not an apple? It is an apple still.

"Mallgoths" as they're commonly called in America (though, the term has been spreading in the last few years to other countries) are their own entity, with their own characteristics, as well as overlapping characteristics with goth (and other cultures, for that matter). Is an orange a "fake apple" because it is sweet like an apple, but otherwise different? No.

As you said, the only "fake apple" would be one called an apple which is not one. One which immitates for the purpose of presenting themselves as one, but other than surface traits and immitations, is ultimately not.

I hope I've cleared up some confusion about my agreeing or disagreeing with you.  

[cold.wire.lips]

what are we, Shakespeare?

i've read quite a few of your posts round the guild and found you both informed and intelligent, and my post wasn't meant as reaction to your statement. i understood that you were simply clarifying the meaning of the other poster, and my tirade was directed towards her and her statement, not your clarification.

no worries, love.  

[GilAskan]

I have clinical paranoia gonk

It's hard to avoid.

I am proud of the fruit metaphors though.  

[Henneth Annun]

GilAskan

cold.wire.lips

ReverofeviL

The wanna-be goths have given us such a bad name. Seriously, there are way more fakes than reals nowadays, it sickens me.

now why should it matter to you whether children wear a certain style of clothing or, more particularly, what people associate with your 'name?' a person who truly rejects common society is equally uninterested in their opinions.
what exactly do you mean by 'wanna-be?'

I suspect she means mallgoths, the "OMFG I LUV MAIRLIN MANSIN HES THE KING OF GOTH I ALSO LUV HOT TAPUC MCR AND STUF. BUT IM ONLEE HAF GOTH BCUZ I DONT WORSHUP SATAN LOL" type.

One question...this isn't directed to anyone in practicular but how many of those people have you met in your life? I've only met three, and I'm sure I will meet more with time.

Mallgoth is Mallgoth. Not goth. Some of us should stop using it as a diragatory term because mallgoths have their own little thing going on which is not goth. Why should we punish them and insult them for their innacuracy? They say "I'm goth" and you say "you ********' poser!!!". Your'e doing exactly what you complain about so much: being critised for being different, here you're doing the critising. They aren't "goth posers", they're Mallgoths. The goth poser is the kid down the street who puts on eyeliner, plastic vampire fangs and spouts off random phrases in Latin to get a reaction out of people. He is pretending to be goth and playing with the idea.The poser isn't the 13 year old who's trying to find his/her indentity by experimenting with different styles.

They (the Mallgoths) will never learn what Goth really is unless they are educated on the subject...somehow. Once they have learned, then they will hopefully stop calling themselves goth. (Once people stop using "poser" incorrectly along with emo, gay,racist, and a large host of other words, then Mallgoths can safely say what they are without to many social consequenses. Once we live in an ideal world, this will all be possible, since we will never live in an ideal world this will never be possible.). My point for this paragraph is that if you're so frustrated with ignorance, innacuracy, (and prejiduce if you like) help irradicate it by being the educator (and by encouring open-mindedness).

[I'm not attacking your statement GilAskan. I'm just making a comment based off the idea of "mallgoths".]  

[bloodyandrea]

i just hate all preps, and i'm a total goth. everyone else can kiss my a**!! twisted  

[GilAskan]

bloodyandrea

i just hate all preps, and i'm a total goth. everyone else can kiss my a**!! twisted

...that's discriminatory.  

[IY_and_MCR]

bloodyandrea

i just hate all preps, and i'm a total goth. everyone else can kiss my a**!! twisted

It'd be easy to delete this.
More fun to see if someone can make a comment on it that is amusing, educational, and not flamming.
The challenge is on