Paganism with mostly Wiccan Practices.

[Cyrus the Elder]

Yanueh

The subject of praying to angels or saints, yeah.

In my experience, it's not something that comes up with Protestant sects because it simply isn't a subject they have to confront on a regular basis. On the other hand, if you actually ask them about it you'll likely as not get an earful on how people who do that sort of thing are idolaters.

A Google search on the subject will bring up many sites that confirm that many Protestant sects consider praying to angels or saints to be idolatry.

Bluntly put, you're wrong. You made a generalization about "Christians". You're wrong for those Christians who practice certain forms of Ceremonial Magic, you're wrong for several denominations of Christianity. Just because your protestant parents had a peeve against something doesn't mean that's what all Christians think.

I've met protestants that think Catholicism isn't Christianity. Now, do you think the Catholics, you know, a subgroup of the supergroup Christian, think they're not Christian because of what some Protestants think?

Before you go talking about stuff again, I want you to do this. Think "Have I met a significantly large sample to generalize quantities of thought in a particularly large group?" If not, stick with the quantity of "some".

Edit: Especially when going on about what "Christians would presume". Do you have any idea how many denominations there are, and how many disagreements there are within those very denominations? Let me fill you in, A ******** LOT.  

[TeaDidikai]

Yanueh

Oh, I don't know... maybe from talking to Christians I know?

I spend a fair chunk of my time talking with Christians about how wrong they are about their theology.

This, depending on how you slice it is any of a number of different false reasonings.

Your sample may not reflect the Christian Population accurately.
Your sample may not have an accurate understanding of Christian theology and are thus unable to suggest that them merely being Christian themselves makes their position accurate.
Your sample may be relying on mass ignorance to perpetuate their position, and not an actual theological doctrine.

Any one of these things can demonstrate a just cause to refuse the premise as it stands.

Quote:

You might also be interested in 2 Corinthians 11:14: And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

So?

Quote:

It isn't that it prohibits asking angels or saints for help so much as it doesn't actually say they can. It isn't approved of because it isn't directly permitted.

~head desk~
If you're going to make a claim, can you at least have something to back it up?

Ignoring the obvious that there are lots of things that aren't endorsed in the Bible, the fact remains that those who are alive in Salvation and through the chapters that establish Sacred Tradition, allow for the practice.

Quote:

Also, many view praying in and of itself as an act of worship.

Then they don't know what the word worship or the word prayer means.

But then, many people used to think the earth was flat too. Guess just because many people are wrong and agree in their wrongness it doesn't make it right.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

TeaDidikai

Yanueh

Oh, I don't know... maybe from talking to Christians I know?

I spend a fair chunk of my time talking with Christians about how wrong they are about their theology.

This, depending on how you slice it is any of a number of different false reasonings.

Your sample may not reflect the Christian Population accurately.
Your sample may not have an accurate understanding of Christian theology and are thus unable to suggest that them merely being Christian themselves makes their position accurate.
Your sample may be relying on mass ignorance to perpetuate their position, and not an actual theological doctrine.

Any one of these things can demonstrate a just cause to refuse the premise as it stands.

Really, it's more like a pavlova made of all of the above. So any way you slice it, you're going to get a sizable chunk of each. ninja  

[TeaDidikai]

Cyrus the Elder

Really, it's more like a pavlova made of all of the above. So any way you slice it, you're going to get a sizable chunk of each. ninja

I'm just trying to save us the time of asking them to clarify then correcting each attempt.  

[Yanueh]

Calelith

Yanueh

Gahhh... no. My point was that Ravenwolf's advice for children to tell their parents that they're "working with angels" has a good chance of backfiring horribly because a number of sects consider that type of thing to be idolatry.

.....That was your whole point?
lol

Yep.

TeaDidikai

So?

This verse demonstrates that in Christian theology, just because something looks like an angel of good and love and all that, doesn't mean it is. Therefore, "Mom, I'm working with angels!!!" isn't necessarily going to be a get-out-of-trouble-free card, especially if they're of a Protestant sect. See: Why Protestants Don't Pray To Saints (it also mentions angels) and Catholic and Protestant Angel Beliefs.  

[TeaDidikai]

Yanueh

This verse demonstrates that in Christian theology, just because something looks like an angel of good and love and all that, doesn't mean it is.

Actually, it demonstrates that people who think this is evidence within Christian theology don't know jack s**t about their religion's cosmology and teachings outside of bastardized translations.

Quote:

Therefore, "Mom, I'm working with angels!!!" isn't necessarily going to be a get-out-of-trouble-free card, especially if they're of a Protestant sect.

Problem. The passage only relies on the Messenger of Challenge. It doesn't address Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, Uruiel, Israfel, Iofiel, Azfiel or any of the hundreds of beings that can be prayed too.
That is to say, it doesn't demonstrate your claim has any application outside of misrepresentation by the ignorant.

Quote:

See: Why Protestants Don't Pray To Saints (it also mentions angels) and Catholic and Protestant Angel Beliefs.

I'm familiar with the numerous arguments that are shot down by a basic working knowledge of scripture- thanks.  

[Yanueh]

Tea, I'm not sure what you're driving at. The point is that many mainstream sects believe it's unacceptable to pray to (let alone "work with") angels. Even if you can "shoot down" their counterarguments with scripture, if a person has been taught all their lives that you ONLY pray to God/Jesus, they're not going to be amused when their kid tells them they've been praying to/working with angels.

Also, I've yet to see a sect where there wasn't at least some dissonance between the scriptures and the beliefs/practices of the members, or where their traditions didn't include something that wasn't actually written down in there somewhere.  

[TeaDidikai]

Yanueh

The point is that many mainstream sects believe it's unacceptable to pray to (let alone "work with") angels.

I'll wait for you to prove this claim.

Quote:

Even if you can "shoot down" their counterarguments with scripture, if a person has been taught all their lives that you ONLY pray to God/Jesus, they're not going to be amused when their kid tells them they've been praying to/working with angels.

Sucks to be them doesn't it? I mean, following something you thought was a grounded religious principle only to find out that it's wrong because it's a thoughtless appeal to popularity.

Quote:

Also, I've yet to see a sect where there wasn't at least some dissonance between the scriptures and the beliefs/practices of the members, or where their traditions didn't include something that wasn't actually written down in there somewhere.

Are you seriously assuming I'm arguing for Sola Scriptura? confused  

[Calelith]

What about those Catholics that pray to The Virgin Mary and Joseph? Are they wrong too?

 

[TeaDidikai]

Calelith

What about those Catholics that pray to The Virgin Mary and Joseph? Are they wrong too?

Why would they be?  

[Aino Ailill]

Calelith

What about those Catholics that pray to The Virgin Mary and Joseph? Are they wrong too?

Some consider them to be, seeing the prayer to them as worship of them.  

[Aino Ailill]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

TeaDidikai

Calelith

What about those Catholics that pray to The Virgin Mary and Joseph? Are they wrong too?

Why would they be?

Because Yanueh is suggesting that praying to things not Jesus is wrong.

*is considered by some many to be wrong*

I've not seen Yanueh argue that this position is valid, merely that it is present and so the excuse suggested may not work.

'Course, I could've overlooked it, I suppose. If you'll quote where Yanueh says that this is zhe's position?  

[TeaDidikai]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Because Yanueh is suggesting that praying to things not Jesus is wrong.

Is this the same old "Prayer = Worship" Strawman?