Baptism and Converting

[rmcdra]

There's always the heretic option like Gho and myself have taken. So if you did fall back into Christianity you would have some support if you did decide to take that route. Just to let you know.  

[Namikikyo]

I talked to my Father about it and as frieghtening as it was, there was a lot of good that came out of this talk.

He said that what he did was make an Oath between himself and the church to raise us with the churches values until I ((as well as my sisters and brother)) were old enough to make our own descisions. Although he laughed when I asked if I was a considered an Oathbreaker, He told me that I had made no oath nor did he make one for me. It was promise to raise me as a Christian, but after that his job was done and I was free to do as I'd like.

A silver lining out of all of this, I was finally able to tell my Father I was Pagan and he accepted me like I never thought he would. Though he hinted me that he would like me to still have some christian values.

And also, I learned the severity of Oaths.

Thank you all for helping me with your ideas and information. I learned a lot and will be telling my friend all of this in hopes it will help her in the way it did me.

I am extremely grateful to Collowrath, Tea, Rmcdra and Fiddler for your valuble information on this subject.

 

[Recursive Paradox]

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

I feel that my ends (forging a path to Aspecthood on my own, building Etherism, engaging my own power, seeking my own wisdom, elevating the Self and growth) required I sever my ties to YHVH.

Just as a point of reference, from a Gnostic Perspective, you are completely correct.
I thought it would be worth pointing out, since your position builds a dichotomy and I noticed there were options outside of it. wink

Well, it's too late to take those other options to avoid breaking my oaths, but out of curiosity what would they be?

Edit: Or rather what options outside of the dichotomy I was creating exist?

It was really more of a commentary on Gnosticism having the same goals you mentioned above.

Ah okay. Even the Aspecthood one? o_O  

[Gho the Girl]

Recursive Paradox

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

I feel that my ends (forging a path to Aspecthood on my own, building Etherism, engaging my own power, seeking my own wisdom, elevating the Self and growth) required I sever my ties to YHVH.

Just as a point of reference, from a Gnostic Perspective, you are completely correct.
I thought it would be worth pointing out, since your position builds a dichotomy and I noticed there were options outside of it. wink

Well, it's too late to take those other options to avoid breaking my oaths, but out of curiosity what would they be?

Edit: Or rather what options outside of the dichotomy I was creating exist?

It was really more of a commentary on Gnosticism having the same goals you mentioned above.

Ah okay. Even the Aspecthood one? o_O

I feel the need to share this:
"Just as in certain forms of Buddhism, followers work to be another Buddha, I as a Christian should work to be another Jesus."  

[Gho the Girl]

rmcdra

There's always the heretic option like Gho and myself have taken. So if you did fall back into Christianity you would have some support if you did decide to take that route. Just to let you know.

God is in so many more places than just one church. Some of us just need to find where we'd like to be with God.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Gho the Girl

Recursive Paradox

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

I feel that my ends (forging a path to Aspecthood on my own, building Etherism, engaging my own power, seeking my own wisdom, elevating the Self and growth) required I sever my ties to YHVH.

Just as a point of reference, from a Gnostic Perspective, you are completely correct.
I thought it would be worth pointing out, since your position builds a dichotomy and I noticed there were options outside of it. wink

Well, it's too late to take those other options to avoid breaking my oaths, but out of curiosity what would they be?

Edit: Or rather what options outside of the dichotomy I was creating exist?

It was really more of a commentary on Gnosticism having the same goals you mentioned above.

Ah okay. Even the Aspecthood one? o_O

I feel the need to share this:
"Just as in certain forms of Buddhism, followers work to be another Buddha, I as a Christian should work to be another Jesus."

But I'm not really seeking to become like YHVH, Yeshua or anyone else involved in those zones.

I'm seeking to ascend to a whole different zone. An Aspect of my Self, will full access to all of the power that entails. A being beyond even the Prime Aspects in control and power (with the wisdom needed for such power), beyond even the realms normally seen in deities in control and power of my domain. A being that has grown beyond the system, reached a level of evolution that humanity can't even grasp to the level that we can grasp that of deities.

I would say that I seek to surpass YHVH, except that it isn't really a linear path with levels of intensities, so really it's just a whole different zone I'm moving towards. That and I don't seek Divinity (from the Divinity Aspect) as in, I do not seek to join the genus of deities and become a new species of deity. (although that is certainly one path that can be taken as an Etherist, seeking deityhood)

I guess the only simularity you could draw between my end goal and what YHVH is now is that I would be just as ineffable to humanity as YHVH. Uncharted waters of existence, so to speak.

Of course, then again, from the ineffability standpoint, who's to say YHVH didn't start right where I did and followed a similar path? The idea of me eventually being a worshiped being creeps me out though, and not just because of it being forbidden by my path. It's just creepy in general.  

[Bastemhet]

What is hell?  

[rmcdra]

Gho the Girl

rmcdra

There's always the heretic option like Gho and myself have taken. So if you did fall back into Christianity you would have some support if you did decide to take that route. Just to let you know.

God is in so many more places than just one church. Some of us just need to find where we'd like to be with God.

Exactly. Thank you for reinforcing that.  

[rmcdra]

Bastemhet

What is hell?

Simple answer: A state of being permanently separated from God. Not everyone want to be with God so why everyone makes a big deal out this is beyond me. Because it wouldn't be very loving to force someone to be with someone they don't want to be with.

Eastern Orthodoxy takes the view that Hell is being with God when one doesn't want to be with God because of not forming a good relationship with God while we are here on Earth.

To me it's being reincarnated. I would hate to have to "restart" since though I believe the spirit to be eternal, the psyche and body are not meaning that if I were to reincarnate I'd be back as square one on my path.

If you'd like me to get Boxy's post on this subject I can post that as well.  

[Bastemhet]

rmcdra

Bastemhet

What is hell?

Simple answer: A state of being permanently separated from God. Not everyone want to be with God so why everyone makes a big deal out this is beyond me. Because it wouldn't be very loving to force someone to be with someone they don't want to be with.

Eastern Orthodoxy takes the view that Hell is being with God when one doesn't want to be with God because of not forming a good relationship with God while we are here on Earth.

To me it's being reincarnated. I would hate to have to "restart" since though I believe the spirit to be eternal, the psyche and body are not meaning that if I were to reincarnate I'd be back as square one on my path.

If you'd like me to get Boxy's post on this subject I can post that as well.

I would appreciate it. I've heard the first position before. Does the idea of hell differ within denominations as well? Is it common still for people to believe hell to be a real place with fire and brimstone and all that?  

[rmcdra]

It will differ based on denomination because different denominations have different methods of exegesis of the Bible and different understandings of the nature of God. Some denominations do still believe in the "fire and brimstone" view.

Boxy

Hell – Do You Know What the Hell It Is?


The Valley of Hinnom, a place-name often translated as "Hell" in the New Testament.


"Hell" is the stuff of nightmares: burning in sulfur, pitchforks and demons, the whole "eternal damnation" deal. However, such symbology is conspicuously absent from actual reference in the original text - except the "lake of fire", which I'll touch on briefly.

Three words have been translated as "Hell" in most English Bibles - Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus - all of which are specific theological constructs rather than euphuisms for a Satan-run prison-house.

Now, to get down to the nitty-gritty: what were Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, respectively?

Hades
Hades is a lovely Greek word meaning roughly “hidden,” as in the “hidden world,” or “the world of spirits.” In Greek thought, it meant the underworld – no, not burning and eternal damnation. It was where all people went when they died – the good, the bad, and even the ugly (woah, Polyphemus! Back into the cave!)

Theoi.com, a wellspring of information on Greek thought and myth, has this to say in regards to Hades:

Theoi.com

In ancient Greek mythology and religion the DOMOS HAIDOU or "realm of Haides" was the land of the dead, the final resting place for departed souls. It was a dark and dismal realm in which bodiless ghosts flitted across grey fields of asphodel. The Homeric poets knew of no Islands of the Blessed or Elysian fields, or for that matter a Tartarean hell, instead all the spirits, including those of the great heroes, descended into Haides.
http://theoi.com/Kosmos/Haides.html

A truly dismal place indeed. However, it is a necessary construction by those trying to figure out where our souls go once we die. The notion that the good people immediately (and note the use of “immediately”) go to heaven and the bad go immediately to hell is rather new. The Hebrews, those good ol’ writers of the Old Testament, had the very same idea, and called it Sheol. The Norse named their overall afterlife Hel, where we got the modern term. All of these, interestingly enough, mean “hidden.”

The Christians didn’t just ignore this idea and come up with a whole new idea about the afterlife, mind you. Josephus, a Jewish scholar of the 1st century (that’s around the time of Christ, for those of you who aren’t into the whole calendar thing) recorded the Christian notion of the afterlife:

Flavius Josephus

Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; … This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone’s behavior and manners. …

This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead …
(Josephus, Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades, 1, 5)

Amazingly enough, Josephus actually refers to a part of Hades where the righteous are rewarded! This is called by Josephus the “Bosom of Abraham,” a term referred to by Christ (Luke 16:22-23). Granted, the word translated as “Hell” in verse 23 is Hades, Abraham’s Bosom is set off from the rest of Hades.

But wait – didn’t Christ say something about burning in a lake of fire or something? This is the second term to discuss – Gehenna, or the “lake of fire and brimstone.”

Gehenna
First things first – where did the word Gehenna come from, anyway? The word itself is a compound word pulled from Hebrew into Greek which means “The Valley of the Son of Hinnom.” This particular valley is on the southern outskirts of Jerusalem, and was famous for being used in the past first as a trash heap where garbage was burnt, and later as an altar to sacrifice babies to the false god Molech.

You heard me. Baby sacrifices. To a heathen god. No wonder these people get the burnination.

Bible, King James Version

And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
(Jeremiah 32:35, KJV)

Gehenna was by far the term that Christ himself used. Of the eleven times Christ used Gehenna, every single one of them referred to complete and utter destruction, and only this term was ever used to describe “the lake of fire.” It should be, because this is the only use of “Hell” which has anything to do with fire!

However, who is eligible to go to Gehenna? Certainly, a large amount of who are classically labeled as “wicked” will be thrust into Gehenna; but we also must acknowledge that Gehenna is not always a permanent state of being. The Jewish Encyclopedia has an excellent description of people who are very likely to enter into the lake of fire:

The Jewish Encyclopedia

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell [Gehenna] immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). … They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). …

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna ('Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). …
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G

A good summary is this: those who violate basic personal and property rights (murder, robbery, theft), who violate contracts (adulterers, oath-breakers), or who misrepresent the truth (scam artists, habitual liars, hypocrites) are pretty much guaranteed a spot in the hot seat. However, not all sins are punished equally, and war criminals are likely to spend a very long time thinking about their own human frailties. So, think of it as a cosmic time-out box, with different punishments for different crimes.

But wait a second – where’s this Satan character fit into this thing? I thought he was supposed to be in charge of the whole operation, wasn’t he? Oh, but there’s still one more concept to touch on – Tartarus.

Tartarus
So, starting off with the definition once again: what is Tartarus? Well, it’s a Greek term for a part of the underworld. In Greek thought, it equaled roughly Gehenna, as described about. Quoting Theoi.com once more,

Theoi.com

TARTAROS was the prison of the damned, a region in Haides where the souls of wicked men were condemned by the Judges of the Dead to an period of enforced purgatory, or, for the truly unredeemable, to eternal damnation.
http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Tartaros2.html

Now, here we have an interesting connotation to explore: “the truly unredeemable, [experiencing] eternal damnation.” Doesn’t that sound familiar? Yet, it’s the same place – only with two different levels of punishment!

The first point to note in relating this to Christianity is that Tartarus is only referred to explicitly once in the texts – by Peter, in describing the location of “sinning angels” (sound like Satan, anyone?)

Bible, King James Version

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(II Peter 2:4, KJV)

Now, the notion that Tartarus is a place to hold prisoners until judgment is a well-established thought, and is found also in the phrase “Gehenna.” However, as Peter was writing primarily to Gentiles, they were unlikely to know about a particular phrase referring to a trash-heap in Jerusalem, so he used the generic Greek phrase Tartarus.

But what of the ultimate destiny of the people in Gehenna/Tartarus? Of that we can read in the book of Revelation (if we may for a moment again humor the scriptures):

Bible, King James Version

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev. 20:13-15, KJV)

Ultimately, those who remain in Gehenna/Tartarus at the judgment – namely, those who were too sinful to escape from the lake of fire in a reasonable timeframe – are doomed to wallow in their sins forever.

The Greeks imagined some pretty good examples: men who chopped up their own children and served them to guests, serial rapists, and so forth. Christians envisioned Satan, the father of lies and of all sin, as ending up there. If I may be so presumptuous as to judge one’s righteousness, I would reckon that Hitler has little chance of escaping this second death.

Sadistic bastards get a sadistic b*****d’s punishment. For wholly selling their humanity for the pride of the world, they receive what little of the world is left: death and destruction.

Conclusion
The ancients had a much better grasp of these things than we do. The system as originally envisioned by Christ and others allowed for justice to be pursued, without needlessly condemning those who commit finite sins to an infinite purpose. Remember, folks, although the flame and its consequences may be everlasting, the duration of punishment is not.

Go to hell? Sure, but I’m taking you to Hades with me.

 

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

He said that what he did was make an Oath between himself and the church to raise us with the churches values until I ((as well as my sisters and brother)) were old enough to make our own descisions. Although he laughed when I asked if I was a considered an Oathbreaker, He told me that I had made no oath nor did he make one for me. It was promise to raise me as a Christian, but after that his job was done and I was free to do as I'd like.

What denomination?
He may have misunderstood the rite.

Quote:

A silver lining out of all of this, I was finally able to tell my Father I was Pagan and he accepted me like I never thought he would. Though he hinted me that he would like me to still have some christian values.

Good to hear things went well.

And you're welcome.

Recursive Paradox

Ah okay. Even the Aspecthood one? o_O

While debatable on the semantics- as is likely for any cross-tradition linguistic issues, yeah- even Aspecthood.

Bastemhet

What is hell?

Now that's using your noggin.  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

Namikikyo

He said that what he did was make an Oath between himself and the church to raise us with the churches values until I ((as well as my sisters and brother)) were old enough to make our own descisions. Although he laughed when I asked if I was a considered an Oathbreaker, He told me that I had made no oath nor did he make one for me. It was promise to raise me as a Christian, but after that his job was done and I was free to do as I'd like.

What denomination?
He may have misunderstood the rite.

He says Episcopol. But there might be something else in there besides Episcopol, not too sure.

I asked him several questions on it and he says he swears that there was no Oath made for me nor did I make one. He said he was offering us to his church by raising us with the churches values until we became of age and that's what his oath was. To raise us "right". He then said the church welcomed us and he began raising us like he'd promised.

When I confronted him about the Catholic thing he merely stated "Be glad you're not Catholic."

But he did say that there is a Christianing after I get older where I do make an Oath myself, though. He says when I make this vow, then I am bound to God and the church like you've explained.

Quote:

Quote:

A silver lining out of all of this, I was finally able to tell my Father I was Pagan and he accepted me like I never thought he would. Though he hinted me that he would like me to still have some christian values.

Good to hear things went well.

And you're welcome.

Thank you, I'm glad too. ^ ^  

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

He says Episcopol. But there might be something else in there besides Episcopol, not too sure.

I asked him several questions on it and he says he swears that there was no Oath made for me nor did I make one. He said he was offering us to his church by raising us with the churches values until we became of age and that's what his oath was. To raise us "right". He then said the church welcomed us and he began raising us like he'd promised.

When I confronted him about the Catholic thing he merely stated "Be glad you're not Catholic."

But he did say that there is a Christianing after I get older where I do make an Oath myself, though. He says when I make this vow, then I am bound to God and the church like you've explained.

Curious. As a theological matter, he is incorrect. The Episcopol stance is nearly identical to the Catholic one.

That said- if he did not submit you on the grounds that the Church requires, you may not have received a valid sacrament.  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

Namikikyo

He says Episcopol. But there might be something else in there besides Episcopol, not too sure.

I asked him several questions on it and he says he swears that there was no Oath made for me nor did I make one. He said he was offering us to his church by raising us with the churches values until we became of age and that's what his oath was. To raise us "right". He then said the church welcomed us and he began raising us like he'd promised.

When I confronted him about the Catholic thing he merely stated "Be glad you're not Catholic."

But he did say that there is a Christianing after I get older where I do make an Oath myself, though. He says when I make this vow, then I am bound to God and the church like you've explained.

Curious. As a theological matter, he is incorrect. The Episcopol stance is nearly identical to the Catholic one.

That said- if he did not submit you on the grounds that the Church requires, you may not have received a valid sacrament.

He swears by my Priest uncle that what he has told me is truth. He claims that I am not bound to God in any manner, shape or form, but that he is bound by his promise. He has clearly told me that I am free to do as I please and has repeatedly told me there was no oath to god, only his own oath.

I think I'm going to question him further about it, though he swears what he has told me is truth. Maybe there is a different name for this ritual or something that'll tell me more about this promise. Do you think it could be a new thing or maybe a watered down version?