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 Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:48 am
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:08 am
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Kashaku-Tatsu and tea, no matter how much u try to get me to believe in evil and try to prove it's existance i probably wont believe it so I still say " i dont believe in evil, not saying it doesnt exist, just that i dont believe in it" lol.
Really now, can you point out where she's tried to get you to believe any such thing?
Quote: my grandparents tried to "beat the devil out of me" and tried to instill the moral values etc into me, but never believed in hell or evil or heaven or good...
Damn, a delicious red herring, and I'm all out of tartare sauce emo
Quote: so stop trying to press that upon me and say i'm misleading when i say that i dont personally believe in something lol.
Could you perchance show where she did such? |
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:49 am
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:37 am
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:55 pm
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:56 pm
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:54 pm
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AshTaros Exactly the topic I was looking for.... I worship Loki and many of the Jotnar (the "bad" guys from Norse lore) including Fenrir. No, I don't look to create chaos (there's enough of it in the world without adding my share) and no I don't blame any bad behavior on my Gods. Those who do that don't understand the mysteries these Gods have to offer and probably don't want to. Its really frustrating sometimes to hold a normal conversation with other pagans when this topic comes up. Usually, people will either shut down or condemn you for your choice. I am proud to be a Lokean. All of my blessings have come from their hands and most of my major life disasters as well. My opinion regarding those disasters is that I survived and it made me stronger. I would not be the person I am if I had avoided those bumps in the road (even if it does seem at times that I might disappear into a pothole xd ) As for whether Fenrir or any other creature out there is a God or not, my belief (that has served me well) is if it's stronger, older, and wiser than I'll ever be I'll give it the respect due to God.
For that matter, why are Jotnar bad? Skadhi isn't bad. Gerd isn't bad. Mimir isn't bad. Only bad Jotnar are bad. By virtue of being Jotnar does not make one bad.
Back to Loki, why is he bad? He's Aesir, the brother of Odhinn, and prefered companion of Thorr. Most of the writing which portray him as the enemy of the Aesir can be attributed to Snorri Sturlson who is... not the best source. His prologue claims Odhinn is a Trojan king. He's not the best person to trust.
Since the site I like to give for this is currently down (The Top Ten Misconceptions About Loki found at www.ragnarokr.com), I will, using it and it's sources, give a short run down as to why the things people use to determine that Loki is bad really aren't so true.
First, his status as a God: He's not Jotunn, he is an a** (a**/Aesir=God/Gods) with Jotnar for parents. Just as Odhinn has Jotnar parents and Thorr has a Jotnar mother.
Next, he is Odhinn's brother. No, not bloodbrother, brother. The kenning we use to determine this calls Loki "Býleists bróðir" Byleist being a byname for Odhinn. If he was his blood brother the kenning would read "Býleists blóðbróðir". As for the mixing of their blood, let's look at the Lokasenna:
Mantu það, Óðinn, Do you remember, Ódhinn,
er við à árdaga when in days past
blendum blóði saman? we blended our blood together?
Ölvi bergja The bearing of ale
létzu eigi mundu, you would not allow,
nema okkur væri báðum borið unless it were borne to us both.
From this, it looks to me like the reason why they shared blood was to bind Odhinn to his oath that Loki would receive a drink whenever Odhinn did.
The thought of them being merely blood brothers comes from HA Guerber's Myths of the Norsemen, a text from 1895 with some horrendous inaccuracies to it
So from him origins, I'm not seeing anything as to why he should be bad.
Now onto the things he's done.
Did he help Hodr kill Baldr? Well, according to the Prose Edda, he did. There's a huge problem with this though.
The Prose Edda is written by Snorri Sturlson.
In the other places where the death of Baldr is recorded, mainly poems collected in the Poetic Edda, do not. Hell, Hodr wouldn't have even needed help in the other versions, because he's never said to be blind. There is a hint that he received advice from someone, but they never name the person.
As for him being the enemy of the Aesir, that has much to do with people thinking he's a Jotunn and he killed Baldr. Neither of which appear to be true. The only possibly thing is that he's said to kill Heimdall at Ragnarok, but that doesn't really mean he's the enemy of the rest of the Aesir.
Finally, is Loki bound for some crime? I'm just going to quote the article for this one.
2001 article in Idunna on the Misconceptions of Loki The collected evidence for this idea is immense, except that the one source which could easily have inspired all the others is Völuspá, and it does not actually say Loki is bound - quite the opposite! In the pattern mentioned earlier, where the seeress regularly asks Óðinn if he wishes to know more, the shortest parcel of knowledge she conveys before requiring Óðinn to cross her palm again with silver is stanza 34: Haft sá hun liggja Here the Hunnish one lies undir Hveralundi, under Hverland, lægjarns lÃki looking harmful like Loka áþekkjan; Loki's appearance; þar situr Sigyn, there sits Sigyn, þeygi um sÃnum with her husband ver velglýjuð. yet not gladdened. Vituð ér enn - eða hvað? Wit you more - or what? These eighteen words of information are apparently the most valuable in the poem, being the shortest passage requiring further payment. Two of those eighteen words have a specific meaning that the one bound simply appears to be Loki. One possibility for who this might actually be comes from Saxo Grammaticus. While he euhemerised the gods in Latin and can hardly be considered a reliable source, Gesta Danorum provides the only clue for someone who might appear to be Loki. In his version of the Útgarðaloki myth, it is not Þórr but a hero named Thorkillus who finds this figure, described as an ancient god, but he is chained to the rocks inside a cave, and has been long enough for his breath and body odor to have become fatal. The idea, that Útgarðaloki is bound in Hverland, is hardly proveable, but the conclusion that someone is there in the place of Loki is obvious.
Now, considering he's not a Jotunn, is fully Aesir and related to Odhinn, probably didn't kill Baldr, isn't the enemy of the Aesir and isn't bound until Ragnarok, why is Loki evil?
Because as one of the at least two Asatruar here that deals with him at least occasionally, I'd like to know what I'm doing wrong. |
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:14 pm
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Quote: Now, considering he's not a Jotunn, is fully Aesir and related to Odhinn, probably didn't kill Baldr, isn't the enemy of the Aesir and isn't bound until Ragnarok, why is Loki evil? Because as one of the at least two Asatruar here that deals with him at least occasionally, I'd like to know what I'm doing wrong.
You're not doing anything wrong, darlin', but not everyone will share your viewpoints. Loki is not evil, he is a necessary part of life, and I love Him dearly, but there are people out there in the Asatru community who will freak if you mention His name during a blot. There are even some online will will not write out His name out of fear and disgust. My Kindred (the Ironwood Kindred in MA) has been villainized for loving these dark Gods, so I speak from personal experience.
I do disagree with you on some of your points though because my UPG is different. I am not looking to fight over who's gnosis is better, I am just stating my point of view.
Frankly, in regards to Balder, (MY UPG and corroborated by others in my Kindred) I think Loki did kill him. I believe it was a two man grift with Odin in the shadows. I mean think about it, with Balder safe in Helheim he will be able to rise after Ragnarok and take Odin's place. Not to mention that with Frigga trying to make Balder un-killable it goes against the natural order. And since Hel (Goddess of the Dead) is Loki's daughter...well, I think you get my point.
As for being bound...well I believe that a part of Him still is, but I will rarely discuss that subject. I mean, think of about it this way, would you want your loved one chained to a rock in a dark dank cave, constantly in pain, and starving. I mean seriously think about that for a second. What if it was your father, brother, lover?
Sorry, didn't mean to get all preachy there for a sec...
Anyways...my POV.
Loving and worshipping a God, no matter Who, is an intense and personal thing. Unless you are harming yourself or someone else, don't EVER let someone tell you that you are doing something wrong. Always follow your heart.
Ok, Kodak moment over with. *whew* lol |
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:31 pm
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AshTaros Loving and worshipping a God, no matter Who, is an intense and personal thing. Unless you are harming yourself or someone else, don't EVER let someone tell you that you are doing something wrong. Always follow your heart. Ok, Kodak moment over with. *whew* lol
I won't touch on any of the Norse stuff, because I'm not nearly as well versed in it. Thanks Celeblin, for posting the excerpts in Norse - it's a beautiful language.
This quote though is something I disagree with. If someone's heart tells them that Jesus wants them to spread the love by having sex with children, then ******** their heart, they're doing it wrong. Also, when it comes to orthopraxic religions, if you're doing it wrong then you're doing it wrong; this isn't a matter of belief but practice. For instance, Wiccan practice is orthopraxic, and if you think reciting a bunch of faux-Middle English pseudo-poetry makes you Wiccan, you're wrong. Similarly, if you think you're worshiping Athena without being mindful of her purity rules and the proper forms of address, proper ritual forms for offering and sacrifice, you're doing it wrong.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the "If it isn't hurting anyone, then go ahead," deal, but there are definite bounds rooted in reason here, and that sentiment is easily appropriated to justify terrible things, not to mention the intellectual dishonesty it can promote. |
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:53 pm
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AshTaros Quote: Now, considering he's not a Jotunn, is fully Aesir and related to Odhinn, probably didn't kill Baldr, isn't the enemy of the Aesir and isn't bound until Ragnarok, why is Loki evil? Because as one of the at least two Asatruar here that deals with him at least occasionally, I'd like to know what I'm doing wrong. You're not doing anything wrong, darlin', but not everyone will share your viewpoints.
Quote: Loki is not evil, he is a necessary part of life, and I love Him dearly, but there are people out there in the Asatru community who will freak if you mention His name during a blot.
Quote: There are even some online will will not write out His name out of fear and disgust. My Kindred (the Ironwood Kindred in MA) has been villainized for loving these dark Gods, so I speak from personal experience.
Quote: I do disagree with you on some of your points though because my UPG is different. I am not looking to fight over who's gnosis is better, I am just stating my point of view.
Quote: Frankly, in regards to Balder, (MY UPG and corroborated by others in my Kindred) I think Loki did kill him.
Quote: I believe it was a two man grift with Odin in the shadows.
Ok then.
Quote: I mean think about it, with Balder safe in Helheim he will be able to rise after Ragnarok and take Odin's place.
The First Sorrow of Frigg has to happen for it to start.
Why would Odhinn go to all the trouble of binding Fenrir only to bring about his own death?
Quote: Not to mention that with Frigga trying to make Balder un-killable it goes against the natural order.
Quote: And since Hel (Goddess of the Dead)
Quote: is Loki's daughter...well, I think you get my point.
Quote: As for being bound...well I believe that a part of Him still is, but I will rarely discuss that subject.
Quote: I mean, think of about it this way, would you want your loved one chained to a rock in a dark dank cave, constantly in pain, and starving. I mean seriously think about that for a second. What if it was your father, brother, lover? Sorry, didn't mean to get all preachy there for a sec...
Quote: Loving and worshipping a God, no matter Who, is an intense and personal thing. Unless you are harming yourself or someone else, don't EVER let someone tell you that you are doing something wrong. Always follow your heart.
Never follow your heart when your heart is in opposition to objective truth. Always allow people to criticise you so that you may perpetually test yourself. Never hide behind what's comfortable when facing a challenge. And when you are proven wrong, re-evaluate, retest, and do better. Do not hold onto fallacy when the Gods ask you to be true.
Because my opinion doesn't matter, the Gods' do. And the closest thing we have to the Gods opinion is the Sagas, so above all else, I will go with them. |
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:55 pm
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Ok, I should not have called you darling, but why do you have to jump down my throat about this?
Quote: They're wrong, I don't have to tolerate them, and if he's not evil, why suggest he is?
I never did. Hence those things called quote marks.
Quote: Loki isn't dark, the Jotnar aren't Gods, and I question your experience.
Question it all you like. And who are YOU to say what is a God and what is not?
Quote: And the closest thing we have to the Gods opinion is the Sagas, so above all else, I will go with them.
Actually, the closest thing we have to the God's opinion is what They say Themselves. Maybe you should consider listening to Them and compare that to what you read.
I don't know why you are spoiling for a fight. It's ridiculous. You know, maybe you should go back and read the rules of etiquette. You may not agree with how I see things but you don't have to be a b*tch about it.
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:07 pm
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:11 pm
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Collowrath AshTaros Loving and worshipping a God, no matter Who, is an intense and personal thing. Unless you are harming yourself or someone else, don't EVER let someone tell you that you are doing something wrong. Always follow your heart. Ok, Kodak moment over with. *whew* lol ... Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the "If it isn't hurting anyone, then go ahead," deal, but there are definite bounds rooted in reason here, and that sentiment is easily appropriated to justify terrible things, not to mention the intellectual dishonesty it can promote.
I know a great deal of practices that can be said to cause harm that are still spiritually valid.
The first that comes to my mind are some of the more well known ecstatic rites. Ritualistic pain to induce altered states of awareness is the one of the tip of my tongue.
When "harm" is consensual in the proper context- there isn't anything wrong with that either. |
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:14 pm
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:31 pm
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