Christo-Paganism, Syncretic Faiths, Mysticism and You

[TeaDidikai]

TheBelikov

Some Wiccans I've met worship "The One" a/the "God" and a/the "Goddess". (The One as an ultimate being who created the God/s and Goddess/es who in turn created everything else).

This isn't part of Wica. It might be helpful if you don't confuse personal opinions with religious doctrine. It's very difficult to sort through within Wica since it's an orthopraxic mystery cult.

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The Father of the Trinity could correspond with "The One",

Not really- since The Father as a theistic construct within Christendom is by definition not the sum of the godhead amongst Trinitarian theology.

If you reread your post, you'll see how it contradicts itself, since for it to be synonymous with The One, it could not merely be a part of their god equal to the Son and the Holy Spirit.

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the Son or Jesus could correspond with a/the God,

I don't really see how. Perhaps you could explain why you think that.

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and The Holy Spirit as a feminine aspect could correspond with a/the Goddess.

What makes you think that qodesh ruwach or hagios pneuma is feminine? Linguistically it makes no sense.

Let's look at it this way- what part of the Holy Spirit was ritually flogged in order to make it love Yeshua?

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I've just recently met Christian Wiccans who follow the similarities.

Then they are likely very ignorant of Christendom, Wica or even more likely, both.

TheBelikov

Awhile ago I challenged a well-established pastor and found an ongoing debate on whether or not the Holy Trinity should be worshiped separately among Christians. I went out a talked to multiple other people (not just pastors) in various churches in my town and found mixed and often unsure replies. And I'm not sure, but I thought I heard something that Mary should be worshiped. Not sure if that was Catholic or something else...

Mary is not worshiped, especially not amongst Catholics. People get excommunicated for that s**t- though that doesn't keep bigots from spreading that rumor as anti-Catholic propaganda.

Here's the thing- you say "well-established", well, what makes him qualified. I mean, hell- John Hagee has a Mega-Church, but the idiot can't translate Hebrew or Greek to save his soul. Pun intended.

And why did you challenge the pastor? What was your motivation?  

[FlySammyJ]

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Mary is not worshiped, especially not amongst Catholics.

I think Our Lady of Guadalupe might disagree with you.  

[CuAnnan]

demisara

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Mary is not worshiped, especially not amongst Catholics.

I think Our Lady of Guadalupe might disagree with you.

I think you're wrong.  

[Collowrath]

demisara

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Mary is not worshiped, especially not amongst Catholics.

I think Our Lady of Guadalupe might disagree with you.

You should keep in mind the difference between latria and dulia (worship and veneration). Latria is worship given only to God; dulia is reverence for saints (and is non-sacrificial), hyperdulia is a special dulia given to Mary.

This distinction is really often misunderstood by Anglo Protestants in America, especially since the English language doesn't very well distinguish the two (and that the word worship is used in various contexts), and Protestant culture here in the US lacks the tradition that would provide for the distinction.

Also, saints that have been syncretized with local deities and/or stem from a local syncretic tradition sometimes inhabit a grey area between the two - but that doesn't say anything about Catholic tradition so much as it does that (distinct) syncretized tradition.  

[TeaDidikai]

demisara

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Mary is not worshiped, especially not amongst Catholics.

I think Our Lady of Guadalupe might disagree with you.

I think Our Lady of Guadalupe would completely agree with me- though it doesn't shock me when those ignorant of Catholic Tradition project their misunderstandings.

As Collowrath has explained, worship and veneration aren't synonymous. Further, the Catechism distinctly prohibits worship of Saints. One can pray to Saints, one can venerate Saints, but it isn't worship. Those who are found to be worshiping the Saints through ignorance are corrected, as per the Catechism. Those who refuse to accept the correction, are excommunicated, since they are unrepentant in their sin.

Collowrath

Also, saints that have been syncretized with local deities and/or stem from a local syncretic tradition sometimes inhabit a grey area between the two - but that doesn't say anything about Catholic tradition so much as it does that (distinct) syncretized tradition.

That and you also have to consider that much of what one might call Folk Catholicism is indeed heresy. It would be hypocritical for people who denounce those who think Quan Yin and Loki are the Lord and Lady of Wicca to allow folk practice to reflect upon Christian Tradition.  

[FlySammyJ]

TeaDidikai

demisara

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Mary is not worshiped, especially not amongst Catholics.

I think Our Lady of Guadalupe might disagree with you.

I think Our Lady of Guadalupe would completely agree with me- though it doesn't shock me when those ignorant of Catholic Tradition project their misunderstandings.

As Collowrath has explained, worship and veneration aren't synonymous. Further, the Catechism distinctly prohibits worship of Saints. One can pray to Saints, one can venerate Saints, but it isn't worship. Those who are found to be worshiping the Saints through ignorance are corrected, as per the Catechism. Those who refuse to accept the correction, are excommunicated, since they are unrepentant in their sin.

Collowrath

Also, saints that have been syncretized with local deities and/or stem from a local syncretic tradition sometimes inhabit a grey area between the two - but that doesn't say anything about Catholic tradition so much as it does that (distinct) syncretized tradition.

That and you also have to consider that much of what one might call Folk Catholicism is indeed heresy. It would be hypocritical for people who denounce those who think Quan Yin and Loki are the Lord and Lady of Wicca to allow folk practice to reflect upon Christian Tradition.

Well there's the disagreement. I've spent inordinate amounts of time studying folk Catholicism and its disagreements with Orthodoxy in Latin America, and I don't consider one to be more authoritative than another. I recognize the difference between veneration and worship, and both take place in Mexico especially surrounding the Virgin.

Globalizing the Sacred by Manuel Vasquez is a good account that I've read recently. Sacrifices left to the Lady of San Jaun de los Lagos include hair, graduation and quinceañera gowns, hospital bracelets, and promises written on bits of paper. The people don't go to the basilica to ask Mary to intercede on their behalf, but to ask her for a miracle.

My intellectual tradition doesn't think syncretism is a dirty word.  

[Collowrath]

demisara

Globalizing the Sacred by Manuel Vasquez is a good account that I've read recently. Sacrifices left to the Lady of San Jaun de los Lagos include hair, graduation and quinceañera gowns, hospital bracelets, and promises written on bits of paper. The people don't go to the basilica to ask Mary to intercede on their behalf, but to ask her for a miracle.

Which, as was noted before, is not a function of Catholicism, but a function of Mexican syncretic traditions. Catholicism says this is heresy; people belonging to folk syncretic traditions are free to disagree about the spiritual legitimacy of these traditions, but that doesn't change the Church's opinion.

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My intellectual tradition doesn't think syncretism is a dirty word.

Neither does mine, considering a vast part of my practice is syncretic in nature.  

[Bastemhet]

Collowrath

Sophist

Collowrath

Sophist

I'm confused. In Christianity isn't it so that God is absolute, the One, exclusively?

Perhaps, so long as you aren't Trinitarian, monolatrist, etc.

Is there a universal church stance on which is the more accurate?

Plenty of churches offer their own stance on which is more accurate.

Does that imply there is no one right answer?

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Monolatry and kathenotheism are subgroups of henotheism. Essentially, henotheism is the worship of one god while not ruling out the existence of others, while monolatry is the belief in many gods (they DO exist, rather than they MIGHT), while only consistently worshiping one.

Monolatry doesn't necessitate that there is one creator god, but that is a common expression, afaik.

I see now. They're very similar.

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Why is it not necessary to reconcile two distinct view points that conflict with each other on the nature of deity?

Essentially, because one viewpoint or another has already settled the question. For instance, you're a hard polytheist - you know as a matter of fact that there are dozens and dozens of gods, of which the Christian God is just one. If other Christians disagree, they're simply wrong.

That's the thing- I always allow for the possibility that I might be wrong. I also have a belief in hard polytheism, but what I'm trying to do now is substantiate that belief by learning about other modes of belief in order to determine what is more consistent with reality as I perceive it, rather than choose that belief because it's more politically correct to allow other people their differing ideas. I'm also trying to see if there are common threads in all of them so that I might knit together a world view that is not exclusive. I think it might be possible, just not with traditional logic. Often in Egyptian theology one needs to have a multivalent understanding of something that my mind wants to reduce in simplicity. It's not always possible nor productive.

I may have interacted with two gods now (and possibly a third) but that does not tell me whether I should believe in hard v. soft polytheism. I also wanted to learn more about the topic of this thread because I thought that belief in a god that claims sole existence might be incompatible with a polytheistic world view. I humbly ask your patience with my ignorance. smile  

[FlySammyJ]

Collowrath

demisara

Globalizing the Sacred by Manuel Vasquez is a good account that I've read recently. Sacrifices left to the Lady of San Jaun de los Lagos include hair, graduation and quinceañera gowns, hospital bracelets, and promises written on bits of paper. The people don't go to the basilica to ask Mary to intercede on their behalf, but to ask her for a miracle.

Which, as was noted before, is not a function of Catholicism, but a function of Mexican syncretic traditions. Catholicism says this is heresy; people belonging to folk syncretic traditions are free to disagree about the spiritual legitimacy of these traditions, but that doesn't change the Church's opinion.

The Vatican's opinion is not necessarily the Church's opinion (if you consider the body of the congregation to be the Church), is what I'm getting at. The vast majority of Catholics are not highly trained in theology, but they are the ones who make up the faith, and they have a strong influence on the upper levels of the hierarchy. The basilica I just spoke of was built in order to give people a place to practice devotion to Mary that was within the bounds of the Church, because before that in this region there had been an outpouring of devotion to homemade shrines at the sites of miracles and appearances. The Church brought this worship into their house, intentionally, yielding to the needs of the local population.

I don't think it makes sense to separate Latin-American Catholics from the rest of the Catholic population. If you ask any of the supplicators in the shrines to Mary, they will tell you that they are Catholic, have always been, will always be. The Church doesn't make this distinction either. I'm under the impression that practitioners of Voodoo and Santeria don't use the same worship sites, even though they have some analogous deities.

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My intellectual tradition doesn't think syncretism is a dirty word.

Neither does mine, considering a vast part of my practice is syncretic in nature.

I was referring to Teadidkai and her discussion of heresy. It's not as simple as that, really. Mary worship is heresy, but it's heresy that is systematically ignored by the Church in order to avoid alienating a huge chunk of population.  

[TeaDidikai]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Furthermore, I highly doubt Tea thinks heresy is a dirty word either.

twisted I'm a huge fan of a number of Christian heretics.

Demisara, basically, Collowrath and Celeblin have addressed the flaws I would have, with the additional perspective that there are those who after being confronted by the Church, and remained unrepentant, are excommunicated.

They ain't Catholic no more. 3nodding  

[TeaDidikai]

Just in case you're interested demi, I don't consider heresy or syncrinism to be dirty words in and of themselves.

There are some Christian Heresies that I firmly believe should be punishable by death- ********, I wish the State would get involved and give them a lethal injection for it- but that's one specific heresy that is a personal hot button, and I can live with those feelings. ~shrugs~

Said feelings do not extend to all Christian Heresies though.  

[Collowrath]

Sophist

Collowrath

Sophist

Collowrath

Sophist

I'm confused. In Christianity isn't it so that God is absolute, the One, exclusively?

Perhaps, so long as you aren't Trinitarian, monolatrist, etc.

Is there a universal church stance on which is the more accurate?

Plenty of churches offer their own stance on which is more accurate.

Does that imply there is no one right answer?

Probably. I tend to defer to the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, but that's just a personal preference.

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Why is it not necessary to reconcile two distinct view points that conflict with each other on the nature of deity?

Essentially, because one viewpoint or another has already settled the question. For instance, you're a hard polytheist - you know as a matter of fact that there are dozens and dozens of gods, of which the Christian God is just one. If other Christians disagree, they're simply wrong.

That's the thing- I always allow for the possibility that I might be wrong. I also have a belief in hard polytheism, but what I'm trying to do now is substantiate that belief by learning about other modes of belief in order to determine what is more consistent with reality as I perceive it, rather than choose that belief because it's more politically correct to allow other people their differing ideas.

On my end, I am a hard polytheist because I have interacted with and formed relationships with deities that I know are not the same. I didn't necessarily know about hard/soft polytheism until I had well established that Perun who loves and protects Slavs could not be the same as an Irish god who won't have anything to do with a non-Irish, and neither of them could be Ares who hates everyone simply because they are male.

Even if I show soft-polytheist tendencies in some instances, there is too much diversity for me to reconcile them all. But, ymmv.

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I'm also trying to see if there are common threads in all of them so that I might knit together a world view that is not exclusive. I think it might be possible, just not with traditional logic. Often in Egyptian theology one needs to have a multivalent understanding of something that my mind wants to reduce in simplicity. It's not always possible nor productive.

Ahhh, plans within plans! I'm no stranger to a multivalent world-view. I had to write a pathways thread in part so I could sort my own thoughts and reconcile (or at least, organize) my world views - not to mention that I kept getting the feeling that people reading my posts were gonk 'ing and that I really should explain myself. =D

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I may have interacted with two gods now (and possibly a third) but that does not tell me whether I should believe in hard v. soft polytheism. I also wanted to learn more about the topic of this thread because I thought that belief in a god that claims sole existence might be incompatible with a polytheistic world view. I humbly ask your patience with my ignorance. smile

No need to ask. smile

Reconciling acknowledging a deity from a monotheist religion with my polytheist world view was difficult for me at first. Since then I've come to two things: 1) initial Jewish accounts through the Old Testament were not exclusive. Strict monotheism seems to be a more recent addition to Abrahamic religions. Exodus in particular seems to be foaming at the mouth with monolateral tendencies - a reading supported by my theology professor as at least consistent with historical Judaism.

Also, 2) my relationship with and reconstruction of Hellenic practice has shown me that gods can be just as capricious and mean-spirited as humans can. Hell, I don't think you could call very many creatures in Slavic mythology very nice either. And they don't have to be. Essentially what I'm getting at is that our Gods don't have to be honest and it's not their responsibility to come down and tell a bunch of monotheists off either.  

[Collowrath]

demisara

Collowrath

demisara

Globalizing the Sacred by Manuel Vasquez is a good account that I've read recently. Sacrifices left to the Lady of San Jaun de los Lagos include hair, graduation and quinceañera gowns, hospital bracelets, and promises written on bits of paper. The people don't go to the basilica to ask Mary to intercede on their behalf, but to ask her for a miracle.

Which, as was noted before, is not a function of Catholicism, but a function of Mexican syncretic traditions. Catholicism says this is heresy; people belonging to folk syncretic traditions are free to disagree about the spiritual legitimacy of these traditions, but that doesn't change the Church's opinion.

The Vatican's opinion is not necessarily the Church's opinion (if you consider the body of the congregation to be the Church), is what I'm getting at. The vast majority of Catholics are not highly trained in theology, but they are the ones who make up the faith, and they have a strong influence on the upper levels of the hierarchy.

I beg to differ - the Vatican's opinion is the Church's opinion, even if members of the Church offer a (viable) alternative.

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The basilica I just spoke of was built in order to give people a place to practice devotion to Mary that was within the bounds of the Church, because before that in this region there had been an outpouring of devotion to homemade shrines at the sites of miracles and appearances. The Church brought this worship into their house, intentionally, yielding to the needs of the local population.

The Church also exists to tend to the needs of its congregations. Offerings and devotion at shrines to Mary is not necessarily worship and is within the bounds of hyperdulia.

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I don't think it makes sense to separate Latin-American Catholics from the rest of the Catholic population. If you ask any of the supplicators in the shrines to Mary, they will tell you that they are Catholic, have always been, will always be. The Church doesn't make this distinction either. I'm under the impression that practitioners of Voodoo and Santeria don't use the same worship sites, even though they have some analogous deities.

Being Catholic doesn't always exclude you from doing things outside the bounds of that Church. That doesn't make you not-Catholic (until the Church calls you on it and you refuse repentance), and it also doesn't make practices outside the bounds of Catholicism Catholic.

The Church doesn't make the distinction because they are Catholic, even if they retain some pagan opinions. The Church's inaction in stamping it out further does not indicate that it condones it.

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My intellectual tradition doesn't think syncretism is a dirty word.

Neither does mine, considering a vast part of my practice is syncretic in nature.

I was referring to Teadidkai and her discussion of heresy. It's not as simple as that, really. Mary worship is heresy, but it's heresy that is systematically ignored by the Church in order to avoid alienating a huge chunk of population.

That's their prerogative. Mary may be worshiped by some Catholics, but that doesn't make it okay in the eyes of the Church.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

That's their prerogative. Mary may be worshiped by some Catholics, but that doesn't make it okay in the eyes of the Church.

This helped me clarify the problem I was having with demi's position as well.

There are lots of things done by Catholics that are against the religious teachings. And yes, some of them continue to be Catholic in name even after doing these things.

I was thinking about how there are also murderers and rapists within the Catholic Church. We don't presume these positions are valid in the eyes of the Church or a part of Christendom simply because folks do it and happen to be Catholic.