Predestination

[Priestley]

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

You're assuming there's the simple duality of Heaven and Hell in the first place. This is not the case.

Oh, point. sweatdrop Faulty theology is fail. Sheol, then. Or Gehenna. Whatever.

'Sheol' is basically 'the grave', 'the common grave', 'death', etc.. It is the place everyone goes when they die. Jesus referred to people in this place as 'sleeping' or 'asleep'. This is where the dead wait until resurrection and judgement. It is not a place of punishment, but it deals with the effects of the curse of aging and death placed upon Adam and Eve.

'Gehenna' is the Jewish word for Hell. It comes from 'the Valley of Hinnom' which was known to be a garbage dump (rubbish tip if you're British like me wink ) where garbage was burned and criminals were punished. I suppose these were done in the same place because of the link between moral and physical 'uncleanliness'.

Judas would be in Sheol right now, sleeping until resurrection and judgement.

Isn't that where everyone goes when they die? To slumber until the Last Day, yadda yadda yadda?

Yes, that's what I said in my first paragraph. stressed

Sorry. I'm an idiot.

Did you know that when the ancient Greeks prayed to Hades, they'd bang their heads on the ground? eek I totally didn't know that until, like, yesterday! Poor Hades... everyone is scared of him, and people are banging on his roof all the time...

Assuming Hades is real, of course, which I doubt. The Hellenistic Jews only translated Sheol as Hades so that Greeks would have a better understanding, since it was the nearest equivalent.

Interesting knowledge? Yes. Useful knowledge? Maybe not.  

[Galad Aglaron]

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

'Sheol' is basically 'the grave', 'the common grave', 'death', etc.. It is the place everyone goes when they die. Jesus referred to people in this place as 'sleeping' or 'asleep'. This is where the dead wait until resurrection and judgement. It is not a place of punishment, but it deals with the effects of the curse of aging and death placed upon Adam and Eve.

'Gehenna' is the Jewish word for Hell. It comes from 'the Valley of Hinnom' which was known to be a garbage dump (rubbish tip if you're British like me wink ) where garbage was burned and criminals were punished. I suppose these were done in the same place because of the link between moral and physical 'uncleanliness'.

Judas would be in Sheol right now, sleeping until resurrection and judgement.

Isn't that where everyone goes when they die? To slumber until the Last Day, yadda yadda yadda?

Yes, that's what I said in my first paragraph. stressed

Sorry. I'm an idiot.

Did you know that when the ancient Greeks prayed to Hades, they'd bang their heads on the ground? eek I totally didn't know that until, like, yesterday! Poor Hades... everyone is scared of him, and people are banging on his roof all the time...

Assuming Hades is real, of course, which I doubt. The Hellenistic Jews only translated Sheol as Hades so that Greeks would have a better understanding, since it was the nearest equivalent.

Interesting knowledge? Yes. Useful knowledge? Maybe not.

Since when does something have to be useful to gain our attention? Not enough people nowadays treasure knowledge for knowledge's sake, in my opinion.  

[Monergism]

Quote:

I have always had an issue with this. Are we Christians predestined to be Christians? or Did we become Christians out of free will?

"Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." ~ Ephesians 1:4-10

This text has beautifully declared God's sovereignty over his elect in Christ. It being the purpose of God that in due time we should become his adopted children. Christians have been predestined by God before Creation to be holy and blameless in Christ. Not because he foresaw they would be holy, but because he determined to make them so. All who are chosen to happiness as the end are chosen to holiness as the means. Their sanctification, as well as their salvation, is the result of the counsels of divine love.

Quote:

What do you think happened when Jesus died on the cross? Did it open a door for all of us? or Did it open a door for a select few (the Christians) then locked that door.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." ~ John 6:44

No man can respond favorably to Jesus' invitation apart from the Father's activity in drawing the individual to Jesus. The native hardness of the heart in humanity prevents acceptance of God's invitation, unless a special work of God's grace takes place. (v.65)

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." ~ Romans 9:14-18

Paul quotes Exodus 33:19 to show God's sovereignty in dispensing his favours. All God's reasons of mercy are taken from within himself. All the children of men being plunged alike into a state of sin and misery, equally under guilt and wrath, God, in a way of sovereignty, picks out some from this fallen apostatized race, to be vessels of grace and glory. He dispenses his gifts to whom he will, without giving us any reason: according to his own good pleasure he pitches upon some to be monuments of mercy and grace, preventing grace, effectual grace, while he passes by others.  

[Priestley]

Nice.  

[Axel Kilo]

Predestination is real Free Will is real but the two coexist and its a paradox that God made himself and He is the only one who knows how it works and our finitw human minds cant understand it so even try to understand  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

 

[Priestley]

ryuu_chan

*SNIP*

lol  

[la faux pas]

I'll admit I didn't read this entire thread before posting, because I'm about to go to school, but it sounds like some people aren't happy with the idea of pre-destination.

To me I don't look at pre-destination as God looking down on Earth, pointing at random people and syaing, "Oh they're good. They can go to heaven, Oops! Not that person. How about the one on the left?" The way I look at it is similar to the way Greeks looked at how their god's interfered in the lives of mortals. It was true that they would impose their own will upon the mortal, but they would not have that mortal do something out of character.

I believe God acts in the same way, however, his will imposing in our lives is a neccessity if we want to know him. When left on our own we are incapable to come to Christ without some influence from him. There would be no wat we could do it. (And by influence, I mean others witnessing to us, a strange event that show us something, etc...)

Also, think about this. Does anyone deserve to go to heaven? I hope your answer is not yes. It is only through God's grace and infinite mercy that we are given this special gift. It's not because we deserve it.

Ultimately though, who knows? Not you, not me. Only God. You can speculate about these things all you want, but there will never be anyway oyou can absolutely know beyond a doubt until the end of days. It's quite possible that reading this thread might make you think differently about it, or it may cause you to doubt. The best thing you can do with questions like this is to study the bible until you have an informed opinion. Share that opinion if you want, or keep it to yourself, and then just leave the rest up to God.  

[Priestley]

chiro93

I'll admit I didn't read this entire thread before posting, because I'm about to go to school, but it sounds like some people aren't happy with the idea of pre-destination.

To me I don't look at pre-destination as God looking down on Earth, pointing at random people and syaing, "Oh they're good. They can go to heaven, Oops! Not that person. How about the one on the left?" The way I look at it is similar to the way Greeks looked at how their god's interfered in the lives of mortals. It was true that they would impose their own will upon the mortal, but they would not have that mortal do something out of character.

I believe God acts in the same way, however, his will imposing in our lives is a neccessity if we want to know him. When left on our own we are incapable to come to Christ without some influence from him. There would be no wat we could do it. (And by influence, I mean others witnessing to us, a strange event that show us something, etc...)

Also, think about this. Does anyone deserve to go to heaven? I hope your answer is not yes. It is only through God's grace and infinite mercy that we are given this special gift. It's not because we deserve it.

Ultimately though, who knows? Not you, not me. Only God. You can speculate about these things all you want, but there will never be anyway oyou can absolutely know beyond a doubt until the end of days. It's quite possible that reading this thread might make you think differently about it, or it may cause you to doubt. The best thing you can do with questions like this is to study the bible until you have an informed opinion. Share that opinion if you want, or keep it to yourself, and then just leave the rest up to God.

Well, what you described isn't predestination at all -- at least not in the typical sense where it means that a person is fated before they enter into the world to arrive at a destination or take certain courses of action.

Other than that error, I'm inclined to agree with your point of view.  

[Lisa Faye]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and hope it doesn't break under me. (It's 7 am, and I should be in bed.) sweatdrop
This debate is interesting. This is part of what I believe.
Salvation and Eternal Life in Heaven, is a gift of God. By free will, it is up to us if we choose this gift and accept it, asking Jesus to come into our hearts. Or choose not to, turning our backs and condemning ourselves.
By this, we choose our destination ourselves. God doesn't. It's up to us to decide where we end up.
We can be as good as we can the short time while we are on Earth. But this also, does not choose our destination. Our works in what we do to glorify God, is what will help choose our destination.
God may know the number of hairs on our heads. And God may know what choices will end up with which result. But one thing stands.
In the end, it's up to us what we choose. That is all part of free will. And when it comes down to our final days, whenever that may be. Will you have chosen wisely? wink  

[Okay Bad Example]

freelance lover

"God is the author of a create-your-own-story novel!"

That is what my friends and I decided this summer. That is, we have the free will to make the choices to believe or sin or whatever and God knows the outcome of all our desicions, even the ones we don't make. You just have to choose.

There will always be logical snags in both arguments of predestination and free will. I just trust that God knows what he's doing and the things he's doing are a little too big for me to understand.

Wow.  

[Rosary16]

I think God would very much love to see all of us in Heaven, but He did give us free will and if we choose not to know Him, love Him and serve Him, that's our choice. We're just choosing Hell if we do that. Basically, God says, "You can believe in me or not, but if you don't want anything to do with me, that's fine but you have been warned."  

[Samsoonie]

Rosary16

I think God would very much love to see all of us in Heaven, but He did give us free will and if we choose not to know Him, love Him and serve Him, that's our choice. We're just choosing Hell if we do that. Basically, God says, "You can believe in me or not, but if you don't want anything to do with me, that's fine but you have been warned."

what of the people who haven't heard the word? There are people who haven't been given a "choice" what of them?  

[LadyAbiel]

I.. don't know sweatdrop

Isn't it that everybody is destined to be a Christian but at some point in our lives.. whether we are a kid.. whether we are adults.. we just follow a certain road?

But I know that God wants us all to go to him..  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Samsoonie

Rosary16

I think God would very much love to see all of us in Heaven, but He did give us free will and if we choose not to know Him, love Him and serve Him, that's our choice. We're just choosing Hell if we do that. Basically, God says, "You can believe in me or not, but if you don't want anything to do with me, that's fine but you have been warned."

what of the people who haven't heard the word? There are people who haven't been given a "choice" what of them?

The Bible has this to say about your question: From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

My own belief (and I could be wrong) follows this logic: that Jesus commands us to love God and to love one another. Loving God is following His commands. You can follow God's commands without realizing it was God who commanded them, and love your neighbor as Jesus loves us without knowing Jesus ever existed. Separately from that, humankind needs a Savior, because we are sinful, and can't atone for our own sins. The fact that Jesus died, whether you know it happened or not, is the saving act. Those who have heard, however, have the obligation to decide to follow Him or not. Those who haven't get judged on whether or not they follow the two great Commandments Jesus gave.

This is just my own interpretation of course.