Snape: Good or Evil?

[Aci Dixinic]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Tsukiko_Sora]

No, I did not write the editorial. It was written by Dan McAllister of Mugglenet.  

[[Ernie]]

Panda Chi

He still did it in the first place without Dumbledore's concent. Which means he basically just agree to kill his leader without his concent.

...And you know this how? Before you go stating things as fact, would you like to drag up something to prove what you're saying?  

[Aci Dixinic]

Quote:

severus -a -um [grave , serious, strict, stern, hard]; adv. severe.

These are all qualities that Severus has.

Quote:

'Snape' meaning: JKR says "Snape is an English village", probably the one in North Yorkshire near Hadrian's (aka Severus') Wall. This village also has a 'Snape Castle'. There is another Snape Village that is near Saxmundham, northeast of Ipswitch near the Alde River.
snape(v) - 'to be hard on, rebuke, snub,' c.1300, from Old Norse sneypa 'to outrage, dishonour, disgrace'. (etymonline)
sneap: to n**; pinch; put down; repress; snub (phrontistery)

Well, "to be hard on, rebuke, snub" is either a reference to his treatment of Harry or his own treatment at the hands of almost everyone, maybe both. "To outrage, dishonour, disgrace" He is in dishonour and disgrace now, and there is no end of outrage for his murder of Dumbledore. All in all, a very good name for him.  

[[Ernie]]

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

He still did it in the first place without Dumbledore's concent. Which means he basically just agree to kill his leader without his concent.

...And you know this how? Before you go stating things as fact, would you like to drag up something to prove what you're saying?

Waiting for a reply.

[Ernie]

If I don't reply for a while, it's because I'm writing my faith statement for confirmation, okay?

Panda Chi

Yeah, but we don't really know if Fawkes was even in Dumbledore's office. Who knows what he was doing? Who knows if he really did know that Dumbledore was back, or in trouble? I just don't think that there's a lot of proof there.

No, I don't think it is either. However, Fawkes has shown his ability to show up just in time to save someone before. He did it in CoS, although that was because Dumbledore sent him. The same could be said that Dumbledore called him in OotP. So, it could have been that Dumbledore either didn't deliberately call Fawkes, Fawkes couldn't get to him or maybe even Dumbles wasn't even strong enough to call Fawkes.

I have a copy of Fantastic Beasts and where to Find them SOMEWHERE in this clutter, but I can't find it gonk I know there's an entry there about Phoenixes.

Maybe the HPLexicon...

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/fawkes.html

They brought up something that I had never noticed: Fawkes didn't die when it looked the Basilisk in the eye. "Curious" xd

Panda Chi

For me, detentions continuing the rest of the year would be some pretty nasty punishment in it's self. But not being able to go to the last Quidditch game of the year, especially for Harry, would be horrible. Harry would feel like he'd totally let the team down. Yeah. That would suck.

Very true. But, I meant that he had gotten a rather light punishement for using such a spell on a fellow student. Had he been a normal student (assuming he hadn't already been expelled), something like that would've gotten him a visit to Dumble's office at the least.

Panda Chi

If that were the case, the Dumbledore had better not tell them anything. Ever. And Voldemort wouldn't need Snape as a spy because he could get the information from them through his Legilimens. Pfft.

And I'm pretty sure there would be a way that they could be sure that he's not Confunded if they were suspicious.

Sorry, I should have elaborated that a bit. If Voldemort were suspicious of Snape being a double-agent, and could not defeat Snape in Legilimency, how else would he get his information? He couldn't--and doesn't--try to use Legilimency on the Order because he can't get a hold of any of them. He doesn't try to either. Though he might if he wanted specific information from them.

True. I had already thought of that too when I typed it up xd That wasn't a real theory or argument; just something that popped into my mind.

Panda Chi

But he still took the vow. Which means he just said that he would kill Dumbledore, without Dumbledore's permission. Oh that's smart. "I'll kill my leader to keep my cover..."

One would think Dumbledore would stress that holding his cover is the most important thing confused Sounds like something Dumbles would do.

Also, I wonder if Snape really knew the plan. This is just speculation, and I highly doubt it, but I like putting my theories down on... pixelated script xd

Panda Chi

Actually, I thought that he was responding to both. That would work. Still, Dumbledore made not recognition of any promise that Snape might have made with her mother.

Yeah, I thought he was responding to both too. Though, I don't see why Snape would use "I promised your mother" as an excuse to watch over Draco while he carried out "the plan". Snape wouldn't need an excuse, would he?

And--for all we know--the plan could have been a totally different thing. This is also pure speculation, but since it's on topic I'd like to see what others think about it. While context clues seem to point at killing Dumbledore as being "the Plan"

Panda Chi

He may have been close to death before, but I highly doubt he would have been this close to death before. And I think that it was right not that he was truly realizing that he was about to die. Also, he probably wasn't pleading for his life because he afraid to die. I believe that he was pleading for his life, because he was afraid that the entire Wizarding World would be in trouble if died. As I said before, he wasn't done yet. He couldn't just stop then because Harry still needed his help.

But why would he plead when it was quite obvious he was going to die? I don't think he didn't realize he was going to die. At least, not when the DE's came up after Draco. He obviously knew that Draco couldn't/wouldn't kill him.

Also waiting for a reply.  

[Aci Dixinic]

[Ernie]

Sorry, I should have elaborated that a bit. If Voldemort were suspicious of Snape being a double-agent, and could not defeat Snape in Legilimency, how else would he get his information? He couldn't--and doesn't--try to use Legilimency on the Order because he can't get a hold of any of them. He doesn't try to either. Though he might if he wanted specific information from them.

Ah...but does Voldemort know the Order exists? Have we ever heard that someone knows about the Order?

No, scratch that. Peter would have told him.

[Ernie]

Also, I wonder if Snape really knew the plan. This is just speculation, and I highly doubt it, but I like putting my theories down on... pixelated script xd

Thats right, he might have been bluffing the whole time. As I have said before, he never actually said to Narcissa, Bellatrix, or Draco, that he knew what the plan was. It seemed more like he was trying to find out by pretending to know and getting them to let something slip. We know that he couldn't have used Legilimency to extract it from their minds, because Bellatrix knew Occlumeny, and taught it to Draco, and very likely her sister knew it too.

[Ernie]

And--for all we know--the plan could have been a totally different thing. This is also pure speculation, but since it's on topic I'd like to see what others think about it. While context clues seem to point at killing Dumbledore as being "the Plan"

The plot thickens...That is a very interesting idea. It raises ideas and concepts in my head but I can't quite articulate them right now, as it is past midnight.  

[[Ernie]]

Acidic Cynic

Thats right, he might have been bluffing the whole time. As I have said before, he never actually said to Narcissa, Bellatrix, or Draco, that he knew what the plan was. It seemed more like he was trying to find out by pretending to know and getting them to let something slip. We know that he couldn't have used Legilimency to extract it from their minds, because Bellatrix knew Occlumeny, and taught it to Draco, and very likely her sister knew it too.

She did? Ah yes, I remember hearing about that. Well, there goes dumbledoreisnotdead.com's theory about Snape using Occlumency to obtain the information he needed from them. xD

Acidic Cynic

The plot thickens...That is a very interesting idea. It raises ideas and concepts in my head but I can't quite articulate them right now, as it is past midnight.

Okiday.

And when I posted "waiting for reply", I meant from Panda Chi. But that doesn't mean you can't respond, I just want everyone to know that it means that they don't ALL of have to reply ^^;;  

[Panda Chi]

Sorry, I haven't been around for awhile.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

He still did it in the first place without Dumbledore's concent. Which means he basically just agree to kill his leader without his concent.

...And you know this how? Before you go stating things as fact, would you like to drag up something to prove what you're saying?

I've brought this up countless times. It was Narcissa's idea to do the Unbreakable Vow, and Dumbledore wasn't there. Had it been Snape's idea to do the Unbreakable Vow, then it would be understandable that Dumbledore had told him to somewhere along the line to help his plan, yadda yadda yadda. But it was Narcissa's. A very spur-of-the-moment thing. So, the only way that Snape could have done the Unbreakable Vow, with Dumbledore's permission would be if for some reason, Dumbledore and Snape were sitting there "Well, Snape, if Narcissa randomly asks you to do the Unbreakable Vow with her to kill me, then do so, k?" And I think it would have been a little bit to random for Dumbledore to have anticipated.  

[Panda Chi]

Huh, I never even knew that this post was written. >.>; Sorry.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Yeah, but we don't really know if Fawkes was even in Dumbledore's office. Who knows what he was doing? Who knows if he really did know that Dumbledore was back, or in trouble? I just don't think that there's a lot of proof there.

No, I don't think it is either. However, Fawkes has shown his ability to show up just in time to save someone before. He did it in CoS, although that was because Dumbledore sent him. The same could be said that Dumbledore called him in OotP. So, it could have been that Dumbledore either didn't deliberately call Fawkes, Fawkes couldn't get to him or maybe even Dumbles wasn't even strong enough to call Fawkes.

I have a copy of Fantastic Beasts and where to Find them SOMEWHERE in this clutter, but I can't find it gonk I know there's an entry there about Phoenixes.

Maybe the HPLexicon...

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/fawkes.html

They brought up something that I had never noticed: Fawkes didn't die when it looked the Basilisk in the eye. "Curious" xd

Well okay. Now that we have that settled... Sorry, no argument. xP

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

For me, detentions continuing the rest of the year would be some pretty nasty punishment in it's self. But not being able to go to the last Quidditch game of the year, especially for Harry, would be horrible. Harry would feel like he'd totally let the team down. Yeah. That would suck.

Very true. But, I meant that he had gotten a rather light punishement for using such a spell on a fellow student. Had he been a normal student (assuming he hadn't already been expelled), something like that would've gotten him a visit to Dumble's office at the least.

...And I have no argument to this either. x.x;

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

If that were the case, the Dumbledore had better not tell them anything. Ever. And Voldemort wouldn't need Snape as a spy because he could get the information from them through his Legilimens. Pfft.

And I'm pretty sure there would be a way that they could be sure that he's not Confunded if they were suspicious.

Sorry, I should have elaborated that a bit. If Voldemort were suspicious of Snape being a double-agent, and could not defeat Snape in Legilimency, how else would he get his information? He couldn't--and doesn't--try to use Legilimency on the Order because he can't get a hold of any of them. He doesn't try to either. Though he might if he wanted specific information from them.

True. I had already thought of that too when I typed it up xd That wasn't a real theory or argument; just something that popped into my mind.

Once again. No argument. But I have an argument to my agrument. They could use the truth potion (what's it called) on Snape to find out if he was lying. And Dumbledore may have anticipated that. Yeah. >.<;

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

But he still took the vow. Which means he just said that he would kill Dumbledore, without Dumbledore's permission. Oh that's smart. "I'll kill my leader to keep my cover..."

One would think Dumbledore would stress that holding his cover is the most important thing confused Sounds like something Dumbles would do.

Also, I wonder if Snape really knew the plan. This is just speculation, and I highly doubt it, but I like putting my theories down on... pixelated script xd

But I think that another thing that Dumbledore would do would be to realize that he is a necessity of the order. Without him everyone's in deep trouble, and I think that he thought that Harry still needed him to get rid of the Horcruxes. Though, Snape as a spy is an important thing to the Order, I think Dumbledore just being around would be more important.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Actually, I thought that he was responding to both. That would work. Still, Dumbledore made not recognition of any promise that Snape might have made with her mother.

Yeah, I thought he was responding to both too. Though, I don't see why Snape would use "I promised your mother" as an excuse to watch over Draco while he carried out "the plan". Snape wouldn't need an excuse, would he?

And--for all we know--the plan could have been a totally different thing. This is also pure speculation, but since it's on topic I'd like to see what others think about it. While context clues seem to point at killing Dumbledore as being "the Plan"

He was trying to help Draco carry out the 'plan', and Draco didn't want him to because Draco thought that he just wanted all of the glory from himself. Hence why he would need an excuse. =D

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

He may have been close to death before, but I highly doubt he would have been this close to death before. And I think that it was right not that he was truly realizing that he was about to die. Also, he probably wasn't pleading for his life because he afraid to die. I believe that he was pleading for his life, because he was afraid that the entire Wizarding World would be in trouble if died. As I said before, he wasn't done yet. He couldn't just stop then because Harry still needed his help.

But why would he plead when it was quite obvious he was going to die? I don't think he didn't realize he was going to die. At least, not when the DE's came up after Draco. He obviously knew that Draco couldn't/wouldn't kill him.

What makes you think it was so obvious? If he thought that he was going to die because of the potion, he wouldn't have Harry drag him out of there and him to Hogwarts and such.


Sorry, for the bad arguments. Half of your arguments were 'your speculations' which made it awfully hard to reply to in an argument. *Braindead* x.x  

[[Ernie]]

Panda Chi

Once again. No argument. But I have an argument to my agrument. They could use the truth potion (what's it called) on Snape to find out if he was lying. And Dumbledore may have anticipated that. Yeah. >.<;

As was shown in the other Snape thread (which I'm pretty sure you've already read, I'm just restating this for the sake of it), Veriteserum can be blocked by Occlumency. So the Order wouldn't try that, since they'd think Snape was using the Occlumency.

Panda Chi

But I think that another thing that Dumbledore would do would be to realize that he is a necessity of the order. Without him everyone's in deep trouble, and I think that he thought that Harry still needed him to get rid of the Horcruxes. Though, Snape as a spy is an important thing to the Order, I think Dumbledore just being around would be more important.

Of course he thought of that. confused I never said he didn't. I'm arguing that he was pleading for something other than his life, because no matter what, Dumbledore would not plead for his own life like that. I can see why he would not want to die, but I stand by the belief that he would not indignify himself like that.

Panda Chi

I've brought this up countless times. It was Narcissa's idea to do the Unbreakable Vow, and Dumbledore wasn't there. Had it been Snape's idea to do the Unbreakable Vow, then it would be understandable that Dumbledore had told him to somewhere along the line to help his plan, yadda yadda yadda. But it was Narcissa's. A very spur-of-the-moment thing. So, the only way that Snape could have done the Unbreakable Vow, with Dumbledore's permission would be if for some reason, Dumbledore and Snape were sitting there "Well, Snape, if Narcissa randomly asks you to do the Unbreakable Vow with her to kill me, then do so, k?" And I think it would have been a little bit to random for Dumbledore to have anticipated.

It would. But, something as big as Dumbledore's death would be worthy of a prediction, no? Once again, this is just theorizing, feel free to try to refute it with evidence you might have. However, IF Dumbledore knew about "the plan" ahead of time, I think Professor Trewlaney may have made a prediction about it.

Enough of my crazy theories. The fact remains that you have no real proof to say that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow without Dumbledore's consent, just as I have no real proof that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore's consent. So, I guess this is one of those debates that is abandoned until more clear, hard evidence arises--though I must admit, context clues and storyline logic are in your favor xd I'm still clinging onto the fact that context clue interpretation is subjective, to a point.  

[Panda Chi]

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Once again. No argument. But I have an argument to my agrument. They could use the truth potion (what's it called) on Snape to find out if he was lying. And Dumbledore may have anticipated that. Yeah. >.<;

As was shown in the other Snape thread (which I'm pretty sure you've already read, I'm just restating this for the sake of it), Veriteserum can be blocked by Occlumency. So the Order wouldn't try that, since they'd think Snape was using the Occlumency.

Yeah, unfortunately I read that after I posted this . >.>

[Ernie][quote="Panda Chi

But I think that another thing that Dumbledore would do would be to realize that he is a necessity of the order. Without him everyone's in deep trouble, and I think that he thought that Harry still needed him to get rid of the Horcruxes. Though, Snape as a spy is an important thing to the Order, I think Dumbledore just being around would be more important.

Of course he thought of that. confused I never said he didn't. I'm arguing that he was pleading for something other than his life, because no matter what, Dumbledore would not plead for his own life like that. I can see why he would not want to die, but I stand by the belief that he would not indignify himself like that. I don't think he was really pleading for his life. I think he was really pleading for the lives of the people that were under his protection. Because there were a lot of them. And, as you chided me for earlier, don't state something as fact unless you have absolute proof to back it up with.

But I don't think he was intentionaly indignifying himself. I think he was thinking of all the people he needed to help. And what would happen if he did die. He was like, right in the middle of things, and I think that he was afraid that if he died, the whole Order and stuff would fall apart.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

I've brought this up countless times. It was Narcissa's idea to do the Unbreakable Vow, and Dumbledore wasn't there. Had it been Snape's idea to do the Unbreakable Vow, then it would be understandable that Dumbledore had told him to somewhere along the line to help his plan, yadda yadda yadda. But it was Narcissa's. A very spur-of-the-moment thing. So, the only way that Snape could have done the Unbreakable Vow, with Dumbledore's permission would be if for some reason, Dumbledore and Snape were sitting there "Well, Snape, if Narcissa randomly asks you to do the Unbreakable Vow with her to kill me, then do so, k?" And I think it would have been a little bit to random for Dumbledore to have anticipated.

It would. But, something as big as Dumbledore's death would be worthy of a prediction, no? Once again, this is just theorizing, feel free to try to refute it with evidence you might have. However, IF Dumbledore knew about "the plan" ahead of time, I think Professor Trewlaney may have made a prediction about it.

Enough of my crazy theories. The fact remains that you have no real proof to say that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow without Dumbledore's consent, just as I have no real proof that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow with Dumbledore's consent. So, I guess this is one of those debates that is abandoned until more clear, hard evidence arises--though I must admit, context clues and storyline logic are in your favor xd I'm still clinging onto the fact that context clue interpretation is subjective, to a point.

Mhm. Of course Dumbledore's death was worthy of prediction. But Dumbledore's been in so many bad situations that it would be pretty darn hard to figure out how he's going to die.

Also, if you'll notice, everyone was totally disbelieving when Dumbledore died. I don't think anyone was predicting it. I think they unconciously felt like he would live forever. He'd always been around to protect them, and I just don't think they ever really thought the he'd die. He was always the guy who would live even if other people were dying. Yeah. >.>  

[[Ernie]]

Panda Chi

I don't think he was really pleading for his life. I think he was really pleading for the lives of the people that were under his protection. Because there were a lot of them. And really, you don't have any proof that he wouldn't indignify himself. But you stated it as fact. Didn't you just chide me for doing something like that?

Yes I did. And you're right. Holy cow, I can't believe I did that. >.>;; Go on, slap me with a fish.

Now that I'm done being a retarded hypocrite and stating my opinions as fact, let's move on.

Panda Chi

But I don't think he was intentionaly indignifying himself. I think he was thinking of all the people he needed to help. And what would happen if he did die. He was like, right in the middle of things, and I think that he was afraid that if he died, the whole Order and stuff would fall apart.

That I can agree with. I'm beginning to feel like he was under the influence of the potion, or he realized that the situation was immensely hopeless. Or something.

Panda Chi

Mhm. Of course Dumbledore's death was worthy of prediction. But Dumbledore's been in so many bad situations that it would be pretty darn hard to figure out how he's going to die.

That's very true. But real predictions don't seem to be something "figured out", they seem to be something that pops into a Seer's head and are recited by said Seer.

Oh crap. I was going to type up the passage from PoA when Trelawney gives her prediction to back me up, but I can't find PoA gonk

Anyway, back on topic.

Panda Chi

Also, if you'll notice, everyone was totally disbelieving when Dumbledore died. I don't think anyone was predicting it. I think they unconciously felt like he would live forever. He'd always been around to protect them, and I just don't think they ever really thought the he'd die. He was always the guy who would live even if other people were dying. Yeah. >.>

I definetely think that's what most people felt like, that Dumbles was someone who would always be there. Just for clarity, I never implied that everyone knew about the speculated prediction, so of course most would be surprised. But as I've got nothing backing me up, I can't claim that as some sort of counter. A prediction like that would be (in theory) between Snape, Dumbles and Trewlaney, none of which were in the Hospital Wing.

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 613

They had reached the hospital wing. Pushing open the doors, Harry saw Neville lying, apparently asleep, in a bed near the door. Ron, Hermione, Luna, Tonks and Lupin were gathered around another bed near the far end of the ward.

 

[Panda Chi]

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

I don't think he was really pleading for his life. I think he was really pleading for the lives of the people that were under his protection. Because there were a lot of them. And really, you don't have any proof that he wouldn't indignify himself. But you stated it as fact. Didn't you just chide me for doing something like that?

Yes I did. And you're right. Holy cow, I can't believe I did that. >.>;; Go on, slap me with a fish.

Now that I'm done being a retarded hypocrite and stating my opinions as fact, let's move on.

No problem. It doesn't matter. xD

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

But I don't think he was intentionaly indignifying himself. I think he was thinking of all the people he needed to help. And what would happen if he did die. He was like, right in the middle of things, and I think that he was afraid that if he died, the whole Order and stuff would fall apart.

That I can agree with. I'm beginning to feel like he was under the influence of the potion, or he realized that the situation was immensely hopeless. Or something.

That's a good point. I never thought of him being under the influence of the potion when he said that. And I do believe I mentioned that it could weel have been that he just realized that the situation was hopeless.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Mhm. Of course Dumbledore's death was worthy of prediction. But Dumbledore's been in so many bad situations that it would be pretty darn hard to figure out how he's going to die.

That's very true. But real predictions don't seem to be something "figured out", they seem to be something that pops into a Seer's head and are recited by said Seer.

Oh crap. I was going to type up the passage from PoA when Trelawney gives her prediction to back me up, but I can't find PoA gonk

Anyway, back on topic.

Oh! I thought you ment 'prediction' as in the 'anticipate'. >.<; Yeah. But I don't know if they predict when/how someone's going to die. I don't believe the predictions are that specific, are they?

Sheesh, my PoA book is missing too. D:

Panda Chi

Also, if you'll notice, everyone was totally disbelieving when Dumbledore died. I don't think anyone was predicting it. I think they unconciously felt like he would live forever. He'd always been around to protect them, and I just don't think they ever really thought the he'd die. He was always the guy who would live even if other people were dying. Yeah. >.>

I definetely think that's what most people felt like, that Dumbles was someone who would always be there. Just for clarity, I never implied that everyone knew about the speculated prediction, so of course most would be surprised. But as I've got nothing backing me up, I can't claim that as some sort of counter. A prediction like that would be (in theory) between Snape, Dumbles and Trewlaney, none of which were in the Hospital Wing.

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 613

They had reached the hospital wing. Pushing open the doors, Harry saw Neville lying, apparently asleep, in a bed near the door. Ron, Hermione, Luna, Tonks and Lupin were gathered around another bed near the far end of the ward.

True. It could be. >.>  

[[Ernie]]

Panda Chi

Oh! I thought you ment 'prediction' as in the 'anticipate'. >.<; Yeah. But I don't know if they predict when/how someone's going to die. I don't believe the predictions are that specific, are they?

Sheesh, my PoA book is missing too. D:

Ho meh gawdz itz lyke a serial b00k keeler D:

Sorry, couldn't resist xd I'm hyper because I'm getting an iPod mini tomorrow.

It could be. I don't think it would be something like, "Dumbledore will die at the top of the Astronomy tower on June 1996 at the hands of Severus Snape." It would probably be worded with clues and such, like her other predictions. Like, "A trusted ally will feign betrayal" or something like that. *shrug*  

[i_heart_ron]

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