Beginnings and Where you are now

[imadelilith]

last time i checked, a majority of these trads do such things in private, in secret, and generally do not do them literally, but symbolically. like i said, i assume that your questioning or listening to flesh and blood is in a well lit, public place. and yes, to take advantage of anyone sexually, you have to be a nut. you are placing people of wiccan faith into a category that people like me try so hard to dispell. it sounds as if you think most pagans are abusers. is that the image you want seen in the general view? if we can't change our own thinking, how can we change the views of others, who already think wicca is cultish and freaky.  

[TeaDidikai]

imadelilith

last time i checked, a majority of these trads do such things in private,

When it comes to lineaged trads? Sure. But then- I'm not as worried about lineaged trads as I am about posers.

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generally do not do them literally, but symbolically

The third degree initiation to Wica is literal, not symbolic. It's a fertility cult.

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like i said, i assume that your questioning or listening to flesh and blood is in a well lit, public place.

Why would being in a well lit public place suddenly null the social and spiritual pressures an individual could exert?

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you are placing people of wiccan faith into a category that people like me try so hard to dispell.

You're confusing my opinion of the Wica with my opinion of manipulators who would use the title to hurt people. My argument is for caution- you give no such warnings when you make blanket pronouncements about the pagan scene.

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it sounds as if you think most pagans are abusers.

No. I think most pagan abusers hide behind people who give the advice you are giving.

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is that the image you want seen in the general view?

I want a realistic representation of a population. I want people to stop whitewashing the pagan scene in a way that lulls those new to the scene into a false sense of security.

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if we can't change our own thinking, how can we change the views of others, who already think wicca is cultish and freaky.

Wica is a cult. Period. Wica can be freaky- they believe in ritually flogging, ritual sex, and ritually kissing another naked person's body.

How comfortable a person is with that is up to them- but to pretend it is in no way shape or form freaky is absurd.  

[imadelilith]

your views are closed minded and elitist. not all wiccan paths are the same, not all pagan paths are even wiccan, and like i said, any attack that would be carried out in public could happen to anyone having a conversation with anyone else about anything. your like a wiccan catholic. although i respect your views, simply because you affiliate yourself with a cult does not mean that the wiccan majority does. and i don't appreciate you spelling out for the entire wiccan populace, how ritual has to be performed. i think that your narrow view is insulting to the majority. another thing is that as a fertility religion, our focus is on the fertility of all things and the earth. newsflash, a majority of all living species reproduce with out sexual intercoarse. so yes, wicca as a whole is a fertility religion. and no, i am not an elitist trad cultist. i feel sorry for you, not being able to broaden your view. and no, it is not always literal, the third degree initiation.

on the freaky side, all of that is true, but it doesn't incompass the whole. it is trad specific wicca. not even every trad practices that way! and personally, i don't think even a majority of wiccans are trad. all rituals there in are different means to the same end, oneness with divinity. people like you are the reason so many have died oon crosses, fires, tree limbs, or otherwise. you cannot crucify all who do not believe your way, or you are no better than your average crusading catholic.  

[maenad nuri]

....Wicca is orthopraxic, that means that the rituals are to be performed in a certain way, which yes, means that Trad Wicca pretty much IS Wicca..

I've seen a great number of skeevy people use paganism as a method to be absolute assholes to people in a multitude of ways.  

[Morgandria]

imadelilith

your views are closed minded and elitist. not all wiccan paths are the same, not all pagan paths are even wiccan, and like i said, any attack that would be carried out in public could happen to anyone having a conversation with anyone else about anything. your like a wiccan catholic. although i respect your views, simply because you affiliate yourself with a cult does not mean that the wiccan majority does. and i don't appreciate you spelling out for the entire wiccan populace, how ritual has to be performed. i think that your narrow view is insulting to the majority. another thing is that as a fertility religion, our focus is on the fertility of all things and the earth. newsflash, a majority of all living species reproduce with out sexual intercoarse. so yes, wicca as a whole is a fertility religion. and no, i am not an elitist trad cultist. i feel sorry for you, not being able to broaden your view. and no, it is not always literal, the third degree initiation.

on the freaky side, all of that is true, but it doesn't incompass the whole. it is trad specific wicca. not even every trad practices that way! and personally, i don't think even a majority of wiccans are trad. all rituals there in are different means to the same end, oneness with divinity. people like you are the reason so many have died oon crosses, fires, tree limbs, or otherwise. you cannot crucify all who do not believe your way, or you are no better than your average crusading catholic.

I would like to know your tradition and lineage of the Wica, please, to be making such claims authoritatively. If you are not of the Wica, I would kindly ask you to stop making blanket statements about things you can't and don't know.  

[imadelilith]

there are dozens of trads, with similar rituals, but they wouldn't be seperate trads if they were all the same. each one has lineage and claims to be from the oldest and wisest source as well.  

[maenad nuri]

imadelilith

there are dozens of trads, with similar rituals, but they wouldn't be seperate trads if they were all the same. each one has lineage and claims to be from the oldest and wisest source as well.

I supposed Gerald Gardner is the oldest and wisest source for Wicca, if you can call 60ish years old.  

[imadelilith]

i am not wiccan, i am just a witch. but i find it really hard to believe someone open minded enough to enter any wiccan path would turn around and close the door behind them and claim to be the one true faith. these kinds of views have burned thousands. so much for never again the burning times... i don't believe that enlightenment is for a select few. i'm glad being trad makes you feel special, but i also feel sorry that you cannot come to a point of god-consiousness that releases you from mundane and physical ritual and elitism and opens you to a realm of universal love. to know love is to have experienced hate. to live is to feed off of death. to grow is to be cut down. i don't see anything fluffy about universal and undeniable principle, but i do see something naive about blind worship. i might as well have entered the guild for mormons and started talking. sorry in wormed my way into your tight knit community of people better than... well, almost every one alive. i'll bow out of this one. feel free to take both cheeks...  

[maenad nuri]

I think you are misrepresenting our argument. No one is claiming Wicca is a One True Faith (in fact, none of us in this argument are Wiccan either). What we are saying is that to wholly depend on learning from people has to be evaluated, same as any other and not placed on a pedestal.

And, while I can't speak for anyone else, you are accusing us of elitism while at the same time berating us for not being able to come from what you see as your superior position.  

[TeaDidikai]

imadelilith

your views are closed minded and elitist.

This is actually a good example of the difference between objectivity and Fluffy Bunny Syndrome. See, I personally do not have anything emotionally and spiritually invested in the nature of the Wica. I don't care if they play Skipbo while bouncing on pogo sticks. If it spiritually fulfills them, more power to them! But I don't feel it is appropriate to misrepresent them.

The Wica have standards, including the ability to swear an oath to maintain the orthopraxic nature of the tradition.

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not all wiccan paths are the same, not all pagan paths are even wiccan,

The Wica have oaths to maintain the orthopraxic nature of the theology.

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and like i said, any attack that would be carried out in public could happen to anyone having a conversation with anyone else about anything.

Indeed. But seekers are looking for acceptance and to be aware of the potential for abuse is a good thing when seeking.

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your like a wiccan catholic.

How so?

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although i respect your views, simply because you affiliate yourself with a cult does not mean that the wiccan majority does.

Wait- when did I affiliate myself with a cult? Gardner was the one who called it a cult. I am simply addressing the nature of the theology.

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and i don't appreciate you spelling out for the entire wiccan populace, how ritual has to be performed.

It's an orthopraxic theology. How am I misrepresenting the Wica- and if I am, would a member of the Wica please correct me?

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i think that your narrow view is insulting to the majority. another thing is that as a fertility religion, our focus is on the fertility of all things and the earth. newsflash, a majority of all living species reproduce with out sexual intercoarse.

And the Great Rite is a sexual expression. It is called the Great Rite for a reason.

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i feel sorry for you, not being able to broaden your view. and no, it is not always literal, the third degree initiation.

Do you have a citation for the absence of the literal Great Rite at third degree?

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on the freaky side, all of that is true, but it doesn't incompass the whole. it is trad specific wicca. not even every trad practices that way!

If they change the nature of the religion is it still Wica?

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all rituals there in are different means to the same end, oneness with divinity

Does that mean the Rite of Destruction that the Satanists use is to the same end as the Gnostic Mass which is to the same end as the spot treatment of a theistic flavored Reiki Treatment is?

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people like you are the reason so many have died oon crosses, fires, tree limbs, or otherwise.

Would you explain how a rational and objective observation of dangers present in the pagan scene has caused people to die?

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you cannot crucify all who do not believe your way, or you are no better than your average crusading catholic.

Please be kind enough not to insult the faithful and loving Catholics.  

[Nomad of Nowhere]

It's late, and I'm disoriented, but didn't I read this argument before between you two? This is some of the sort of stuff I'm going to try to cover in my Pathway, if I ever get it typed up just right. "One Eclectic's Rationale." Not that I expect you to hold your breath for it or anything.

On one hand, I feel like traditionalists naturally have a good amount of credibility that those with personal interpretations just can't. Then again, it is not unusual for cults, congregations, and many religious communities or social units to share a very intimate or trust-demanding vulnerable state with one another. In a way, even confession applies. Someone can always take advantage of these ceremonial moments of vulnerability, and consequently, having a serious spiritual relationship with someone, particularly a mentor, is quite risky and demands quite a lot of trust.

Also, I believe that Tea is not being dogmatic or necessarily exhibiting that she is bound by a rigid belief system (or being "Catholic"), but rather, is asserting that the true nature of Wicca is bound by a rigid belief system, and that it should be respected. Personally... Wiccan or not Wiccan, at this point I'd say it's just semantics really.
 

[Morgandria]

Teague the Druid

Also, I believe that Tea is not being dogmatic or necessarily exhibiting that she is bound by a rigid belief system (or being "Catholic"), but rather, is asserting that the true nature of Wicca is bound by a rigid belief system, and that it should be respected. Personally... Wiccan or not Wiccan, at this point I'd say it's just semantics really.

Wicca is not bound by a rigid belief system. It is bound by a rigid set of practices. There's plenty of room for different beliefs and opinions on the same subject - so long as everyone is on the same page with how we do things.

The difference between orthodoxy and orthopraxy is not one of semantics, at all. By saying so, you are equally as unkind to the Wica as imadelilith - by insinuating we just like to be difficult, rather than attempting to preserve the integrity of our practice from those outside it.  

[Nomad of Nowhere]

Morgandria

Teague the Druid

Also, I believe that Tea is not being dogmatic or necessarily exhibiting that she is bound by a rigid belief system (or being "Catholic"), but rather, is asserting that the true nature of Wicca is bound by a rigid belief system, and that it should be respected. Personally... Wiccan or not Wiccan, at this point I'd say it's just semantics really.

Wicca is not bound by a rigid belief system. It is bound by a rigid set of practices. There's plenty of room for different beliefs and opinions on the same subject - so long as everyone is on the same page with how we do things.

The difference between orthodoxy and orthopraxy is not one of semantics, at all. By saying so, you are equally as unkind to the Wica as imadelilith - by insinuating we just like to be difficult, rather than attempting to preserve the integrity of our practice from those outside it.

I'm sorry, I should have said a rigid set of practices. On the subject of semantics though, what should we call a coven that is exactly as it's supposed to be with only one or two exceptions? Should we invent a new name for a new religion for them?  

[TeaDidikai]

Teague the Druid

I'm sorry, I should have said a rigid set of practices. On the subject of semantics though, what should we call a coven that is exactly as it's supposed to be with only one or two exceptions? Should we invent a new name for a new religion for them?

By virtue of what an orthopraxy is, yes. They need a new religion.  

[Nomad of Nowhere]

TeaDidikai

Teague the Druid

I'm sorry, I should have said a rigid set of practices. On the subject of semantics though, what should we call a coven that is exactly as it's supposed to be with only one or two exceptions? Should we invent a new name for a new religion for them?

By virtue of what an orthopraxy is, yes. They need a new religion.

No matter how minor the distinction? Literally, regardless of it's insignificance, they can't be called Wiccan anymore? How is that not semantics?