Ewwwww- Gross! (The nastier side of spells and paganism)

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

The implication that one would have "an issue [they] need to work through" would imply that such hasn't already been done.

That was the only "issue" I took.

I think that we are using the word issue in different ways which is seems to put us at cross purposes.

TeaDidikai

If proper instruction is not present- very much so.
However- if you are raised in a fashion that explains things, it isn't needed. You either except the explanation or reject it.

That type of up bringing I am endeavouring to give my children and yes you are right if the proper instruction or oral lore is passed it makes all the difference.

TeaDidikai

You and I have slightly different understandings of what "open minded" is. For me, "open minded" is about understanding things within the context they sprang from, rather than shoving everything into my personal world view.

Again I think we are having language difficulties.

To me an open minded people will seek understanding which may include internal and external questioning, a close minded person won't, I never mentioned extracting things from thier context for that often serves no purpose and can often destroy what it is a person is seeking to understand.

TeaDidikai

me

There are people who with certain traditions be they ones they grow up in or ones they adopt who will do thing in a certain way on a certain day as they were shown/told but never seek out more reasons then
that is has always done this way and don't look for more answers or thier own answers to why.

I hear this a lot. To be honest- I don't believe it.

In my experience, everyone questions and and seeks the understanding they need.



Too often a rejection of our ideas of what is right, or an individual's favor towards their tradition or what we might view as a limited understanding is degraded because we do not understand why they came to that conclusion.

That would depend esp when a person is ment to be able to pass on what they have learned and trigger that understanding in another person.
This can be done in a lot of ways but you have to know why as well as the how.

TeaDidikai

Just because they don't agree with me doesn't mean they haven't questioned or thought about it in their own time.

I don't have a problem with a person who has different opinions or beliefs or views but I also agree that 'The unexamined life is not worth living'.

TeaDidikai

I have no qualm with this myself.

The laws that are tied to a people by their gods are not always universal.

In many traditions, those outside the culture are already taboo unto themselves. If they become more taboo, who cares?

That is a way of looking at it and if it works for you then I can respect that but I would have a different take on that.

TeaDidikai

When we divorce the concept of taboo and pure from "good" and "bad", it no longer is a tool of judgment but really a "matter of facts". Not too unlike asking someone who is already muddy to wade out on the sand and grab someone you dropped. It takes less effort and resources for one person to "clean up" than it does for two.

Which is pretty much my take on people who become outsiders or to a point excluded from thier communities because they preform a certain function.

TeaDidikai

I think your understanding of culture and honor might be projected into my traditions in a way that ignores some fundamental concepts.

No. Infact I was being careful not to do that. I was giving a personal example of how I live my life I was not trying to project that on to you but was giving an example to explain my point of view from where I stand on the issue and thus high lighting a difference.  

[TeaDidikai]

ShadowSharrow

I think that we are using the word issue in different ways which is seems to put us at cross purposes.

Perhaps. But I understand what you are saying and I think we have come to some kind of agreement below:

Quote:

TeaDidikai

If proper instruction is not present- very much so.
However- if you are raised in a fashion that explains things, it isn't needed. You either except the explanation or reject it.

That type of up bringing I am endeavouring to give my children and yes you are right if the proper instruction or oral lore is passed it makes all the difference.

Quote:

Again I think we are having language difficulties.

To me an open minded people will seek understanding which may include internal and external questioning, a close minded person won't, I never mentioned extracting things from thier context for that often serves no purpose and can often destroy what it is a person is seeking to understand.
...
I don't have a problem with a person who has different opinions or beliefs or views but I also agree that 'The unexamined life is not worth living'.

What I am saying is that I think it is the arrogance of those who consider themselves to be "insightful", "intelligent" or a host of other merits of the mind to claim that there is such thing as an "unexamined life".

My argument is that everyone examines their life- they just may not examine the aspects of their life that others have given thought to in their own lives.
They may have found meaning in things we did not and that it is a hasty and ill formed judgment to assume that people who strike us as superficial are actually as shallow as they present.

Quote:

Which is pretty much my take on people who become outsiders or to a point excluded from thier communities because they preform a certain function.

Which is not an issue with the laws I spoke of. Criminal actions may make someone an outsider, but contamination through mokado can be reversed or in some cases is not inflicted to begin with depending on the status of the person.

Quote:

No. Infact I was being careful not to do that. I was giving a personal example of how I live my life I was not trying to project that on to you but was giving an example to explain my point of view from where I stand on the issue and thus high lighting a difference.

Then I think you did not do a very good job of explaining the context as you shifted from presenting your position as a universal parallel to personal without the kinds of cue I would have needed to understand such.  

[ShadowSharrow]

I'm done.

I am tired at trying not to to get offended or insulted when ever we get in to an exchange. It has been starting to feel like you are deliberately making assumptions about where I am going from and it has been colouring your posts.

I don't see the point in getting disgruntled but at this stage you have exhausted my patience and tolerance levels.
You seem like a smart and interesting woman which was why I did look forward to reading your post and had been trying to make allowances for the limited medium which is such forums but you always seem to be grasping for the wrong end of the stick with me ad taking personal affront to my posts. I have no idea what I have done to generate such prejudice but I am done with you taking pot shots at me an my honour and you making assumptions about me.

I wish you well.  

[TeaDidikai]

ShadowSharrow

I'm done.

I am tired at trying not to to get offended or insulted when ever we get in to an exchange.

~blinks~ I didn't see that coming.

Quote:

It has been starting to feel like you are deliberately making assumptions about where I am going from and it has been colouring your posts.

Of course I make assumptions as to meaning. I use context and language and at time emoiticons to do so. Thought everyone did.

Quote:

I don't see the point in getting disgruntled but at this stage you have exhausted my patience and tolerance levels.

Sorry.

Quote:

You seem like a smart and interesting woman which was why I did look forward to reading your post and had been trying to make allowances for the limited medium which is such forums but you always seem to be grasping for the wrong end of the stick with me ad taking personal affront to my posts.

In all our interactions, I have only ever had my hackles raised once by you and I let you know and within one post it was resolved.

Quote:

I have no idea what I have done to generate such prejudice but I am done with you taking pot shots at me an my honour and you making assumptions about me.

~blinks~ I mentioned honor where?

Quote:

I wish you well.

Have a nice one Shadow.  

[godhi]

One of the most disturbing necromantic rituals I know of is the rite for creating the infamous Hand of Glory.
The ritual requires the left hand of a murderer who was executed for his crimes. The severed hand must be embalmed in a mixture of salt, pepper, and saltpeter for at least one season while the fat of the murderer must be made into tallow, mixed with virgin beeswax, and crafted into five candles whose wicks must be woven from threads from a burial shroud.
(some of this wax is also put aside to coat the hand during the final ritual)
During this time the hand must not be exposed to sunlight, and after the embalming process is complete it must be dried and preserved using a censer burning the appropriate incense. On the dark of the moon the final ceremony is performed in which the talisman is carved with magical symbols, preserved in wax, and the candles affixed to the fingers.
Once the ritual is complete, the Hand of Glory may be used to find treasure, summon ghosts and evil spirits, and perform such magical tasks as preventing people in a house from waking while it is being robbed. Conversely, the soul of the murderer bound within the grisly talisman can also be used to protect a household from criminals, and there are legends of a Hand of Glory appearing as a flaming apparition to frighten thieves and murderers away from the household.
I've also read of necromantic rites where the magician digs up old coffins from a cemetery to remove the nails; these are stuck into an image such as a doll or photograph of an enemy, and the victim dies a very slow and unpleasant death.
Voudoun also has a number of grisly rites involving the sacrifice of white doves, black chickens, and black cats as well as the use of their blood and body parts in various rites and rituals.  

[patch99329]

^ eek ... crying .
Thats scary. Emma no likey.

xD  

[TeaDidikai]

Huh. Your Hand of Glory prep seems to be less complicated than the one I am familiar with. sweatdrop  

[godhi]

TeaDidikai

Huh. Your Hand of Glory prep seems to be less complicated than the one I am familiar with. sweatdrop

I'm using the spell formula I read in a book on Italian Witchcraft; of course, I left out all the chanting, invocations to Hecate, etc. What's the formula you're familiar with?  

[TeaDidikai]

godhi

TeaDidikai

Huh. Your Hand of Glory prep seems to be less complicated than the one I am familiar with. sweatdrop

I'm using the spell formula I read in a book on Italian Witchcraft; of course, I left out all the chanting, invocations to Hecate, etc. What's the formula you're familiar with?

The one I am familiar with I think has been altered by Afro-Caribbean Folk Culture.  

[patch99329]

TeaDidikai

godhi

TeaDidikai

Huh. Your Hand of Glory prep seems to be less complicated than the one I am familiar with. sweatdrop

I'm using the spell formula I read in a book on Italian Witchcraft; of course, I left out all the chanting, invocations to Hecate, etc. What's the formula you're familiar with?

The one I am familiar with I think has been altered by Afro-Caribbean Folk Culture.

Where was the hand of glory's place of origin?  

[TeaDidikai]

patch99329

TeaDidikai

godhi

TeaDidikai

Huh. Your Hand of Glory prep seems to be less complicated than the one I am familiar with. sweatdrop

I'm using the spell formula I read in a book on Italian Witchcraft; of course, I left out all the chanting, invocations to Hecate, etc. What's the formula you're familiar with?

The one I am familiar with I think has been altered by Afro-Caribbean Folk Culture.

Where was the hand of glory's place of origin?

I suspect somewhere in Europe. Often it is meant to be the "left hand", which has some sinister Latin roots. sweatdrop wink  

[godhi]

Another disgusting ritual I found in a book on classical European witchcraft was a spell which transformed the witch into a werewolf. The ritual appears to be Roman in origin and involves the creation of a belt made from tanned wolf hide on one side and preserved human skin on the other.
Both the making of the belt and the enchanting ritual could only be performed on the nights of the full moon, and it required a full year to complete the spell; the final ritual was performed at a crossroads at midnight, and involved calling upon Hecate to witness the spell (although another version of the ritual from the Middle Ages called upon the power of the Devil) and drinking a potion of assorted vile substances mixed with deadly plants from the nightshade family.  

[TeaDidikai]

That actually reminds me: there are some pretty messed up flying ointments out there as well.  

[godhi]

TeaDidikai

That actually reminds me: there are some pretty messed up flying ointments out there as well.

Don't get me started on flying ointments. I've read formulae for such potions that include the metaphysical equivalent of the kitchen sink: assorted herbs from the Nightshade family, various mushrooms, baby fat, bat's blood... the list goes on and on.  

[ShadowSharrow]

godhi

TeaDidikai

That actually reminds me: there are some pretty messed up flying ointments out there as well.

Don't get me started on flying ointments. I've read formulae for such potions that include the metaphysical equivalent of the kitchen sink: assorted herbs from the Nightshade family, various mushrooms, baby fat, bat's blood... the list goes on and on.

And don't forget the boiled skin of a drowned dog and the rendered fat of an unbaptised child.