Metagenetics

[TeaDidikai]

Tsuzuki

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

Our similarities are fundamental, while our differences aren't. Furthermore, our two racial lines converge at the point of the original Indo-Europeans. At least, that's what science tells us. How far back do your mythical blood ties go, and could they possibly include everyone of Indo-European descent?

The mythology actually doesn't claim all of the Indo-European peoples.

Can you see where I'm going with this, though?

Nope. Enlighten me.  

[Tsuzuki]

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

Our similarities are fundamental, while our differences aren't. Furthermore, our two racial lines converge at the point of the original Indo-Europeans. At least, that's what science tells us. How far back do your mythical blood ties go, and could they possibly include everyone of Indo-European descent?

The mythology actually doesn't claim all of the Indo-European peoples.

Can you see where I'm going with this, though?

Nope. Enlighten me.

Scientific vs. mythological origins of a group of people. This is where metagenetics loses most of its steam. At least for me, anyway. For example, there is overwhelming evidence that the emperor of Japan is descended from Koreans, not kami.  

[saint dreya]

sorry for taking so long to get back to this...

TeaDidikai

Part of the issue is that some gods are considered the founders of certain bloodlines and that some connection to the god through such a line is needed.

unfortunately, not everyone has an impeccable geneology. there wasn't a specific person in every family that had the job of writing down who is related to who, and who in turn that person was related to. there are so many geneologies that were left unattended that are now completely lost. proving then that one has such a bloodline or not becomes a problem. granted, still, as this discussion has evolved, it was mentioned about those who venture out of the culture and essentially alienate themselves from it. if later on down the line, one of their descendants feels a call back to that culture, then i think they should get a good amount of encouragement. further explanation after this next quote, as it really has to do more now with that content than this.

TeaDidikai

Also, Closed Cultures are closed for a reason and someone's passing interest in said culture does not entitle them to have full access to all the traditions of said culture.

if it's a closed culture, i am no one to then say 'well, they have a calling to it, so let them in'. i am not responsible for those cultures or for those wanting to be let in them. i won't encourage forcing oneself in where one is not welcome, purely for the fact of, well, what spiritual or cultural enlightenment will one perhaps attain if one is never allowed to fully volunteer for the aspects that make that culture/spirituality exceptional? or, what good will it do when you know everyone around you doesn't want you there?

yes, there's the 'trends' happening to, in which case, some people just get into it because it's the cool thing to do. and i think this is the exact situation we deal with on M&R with all the self-proclaimed fluffy priest/esses. no serious interest, no serious study, no serious claim.

mind, i do still advocate interaction with the deity, if it's felt they have called the person in question.

TeaDidikai

I find it interesting that even within the pagan scene, many fluffies would claim to be Rroma and therefore display a sense of entitlement to traditions there of- where as there are far fewer people who would try and knock down the doors of a Native American Lodge or be the first ones with a chicken at the crossroads to honor Papa Legba.

hmm, i think it might come from the mystery of such a culture, and the romanticism that has been attached to it (at least in the states it seems to have happened). i for one did not know of the treatment they as a people and culture went through until you had mentioned it months ago on M&R, Tea.

their history is not a widely known subject. hell, even widely known things, such as the dark ages and the renaissance, still have that romance thingy attached. people oooh and ahhh at the festivals, but don't really seem to consider that the conditions after the rains that might derail a few entertainments at the festivals, well, the way the roads are left was pretty much how it was on a sunny day back then. it's too much fiction and not enough fact, the same thing that plagues the pagan scene.

i don't like metagenitics because it seems to much based on a chance occurance. i don't believe we have a choice to where or when we are born. therefore, i don't hold much stock in someone being born to a certain privilege (other than having easier access to said culture) and another not, and so does not get the same access. it's the same reasoning i have behind not liking the stipulation that to be a president of the united states, one has to have been born a citizen. because one being born here automatically makes them more qualified to lead this country?  

[Jishin]

I never like to get into this discussion, because I inevitably end up getting my head bitten off. But it is always something I feel compelled to discuss.

There are many people in the Norse traditions that believe in metagenetics. That's their prerogative.

Here's the thing. I'm not Norse. I'm not remotely Norse. I'm 7/8 Italian and 1/8 Portuguese, as far as I know. Now, given the muddles caused by history and Viking invasions and whatever, I could theoretically have Norse blood in me, but if I do, it's certainly not visible, and it's not known of, at least back to the 1600s or something.

Regardless of bloodline, though ...

my deity came to me. Not the other way around.

Loki in all his bad-a** glory showed up on my doorstep. I didn't go looking for him.

Now what am I supposed to do? "Oh. Um. Loki-sir. I am not Norse, so I cannot follow you, even though you showed up in my bedroom and demanded my attention."

(Actually, it was more like, "OMFGLOKIWTF am I going to do now don't hurt me please!" Things got a little easier once I stopped panicking.)

I may not be Norse. I may never understand the "metagenetic mysteries". But I know my calling. (Interestingly enough, there is no proof that Loki was ever publicly worshipped, although there are towns and a star and plants and people named after him. I occasionally wonder if that means that I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, since the culture did not reverence him in that regard.)

I respect the Norse culture. I study it. I read the myths, I read the sagas, I try to learn everything I can. I do what I can to be respectful, and I know that I am not part of the culture, and make no claim to be part of it. But I cannot deny my calling as one of Loki's in my own way.

Discussion of metagenetics is painful to me. If I had an easier calling, I would have taken it. I don't. The Roman deities don't want me. I know -- I've asked. If I seek any other deity out, they turn me right back around and point me back at Loki.

If being an outsider wasn't bad enough, I'm called to the Jotun hotshot. "The Norse Satan." It's very difficult for me, having to deal with a very complex deity and significant rejection from the people that are most likely to understand, simply because I don't match their gene pool, and then also dealing with the folks who are all "You're called to Loki? That's so COOOOOL. He's so EVIL!" *facepalm*

So that's where I am. I won't claim to get the metagenetic thing. I'm an outsider. I know it, full well, and I do everything I can to be respectful, and I know that I'll never get it in the same way as someone born into that culture. But it hurts, a lot, when there are people who say that I can't possibly be called to a Norse deity at all because of my DNA. It's my calling. I can not deny it.

And now I'm going to go off and hide for a while, because this topic always makes me really upset. I feel very strongly about my calling, and this sort of thing always makes me feel like I'm no damn good no matter what I do.  

[Jishin]

... Whew, I ranted. Sorry, guys. *looks apologetic* That one festers too often.

Not yelling at anyone here, more yelling at the faceless masses.  

[EternalHearts]

TeaDidikai

This brings up a very good point.

How do people feel about the balance of Metagenetic Mysteries and the respect for the culture that holds them when faced with a personal desire to learn?

The Elusinian Mysteries were open to anyone and everyone that could speak and understand Greek, so it can't be considered a Metagenetic Mystery.

 

[saint dreya]

EternalHearts

TeaDidikai

This brings up a very good point.

How do people feel about the balance of Metagenetic Mysteries and the respect for the culture that holds them when faced with a personal desire to learn?

The Elusinian Mysteries were open to anyone and everyone that could speak and understand Greek, so it can't be considered a Metagenetic Mystery.

site

note the words secret, shrouded, and forbidden. for that matter, here, direct quote.

Quote:

Yet for all this evidence, the true nature of the Mysteries remains shrouded in uncertainty because the participants did, with remarkable consistency, honor their pledge not to reveal what took place in the Telesterion, or inner sanctum of the Temple of Demeter. To violate that oath of secrecy was a capital offense. (Aeschylos, for example, once had to fear for his life on account of coming too close to revealing forbidden truths.)

 

[maenad nuri]

It still isn't the same as a metagenetic. They were open to quite a few people, you just had to go through the initation and meet the standards.
Which for the time, was pretty open. You had to speak greek, which I think (Eternal, correct me if I'm wrong) was one of the defining characteristics of being Greek. Not bloodlines.  

[TeaDidikai]

phoenix_shadowwolf

unfortunately, not everyone has an impeccable geneology. there wasn't a specific person in every family that had the job of writing down who is related to who, and who in turn that person was related to. there are so many geneologies that were left unattended that are now completely lost. proving then that one has such a bloodline or not becomes a problem. granted, still, as this discussion has evolved, it was mentioned about those who venture out of the culture and essentially alienate themselves from it. if later on down the line, one of their descendants feels a call back to that culture, then i think they should get a good amount of encouragement. further explanation after this next quote, as it really has to do more now with that content than this.

But then, their reconnection to the culture is found not within the blood (after a certain point, cultures ignore ancestory- individuals are take things on a case by case basis). Reconnecting with the Culture becomes important.

Quote:

if it's a closed culture, i am no one to then say 'well, they have a calling to it, so let them in'. i am not responsible for those cultures or for those wanting to be let in them. i won't encourage forcing oneself in where one is not welcome, purely for the fact of, well, what spiritual or cultural enlightenment will one perhaps attain if one is never allowed to fully volunteer for the aspects that make that culture/spirituality exceptional? or, what good will it do when you know everyone around you doesn't want you there?

yes, there's the 'trends' happening to, in which case, some people just get into it because it's the cool thing to do. and i think this is the exact situation we deal with on M&R with all the self-proclaimed fluffy priest/esses. no serious interest, no serious study, no serious claim.

mind, i do still advocate interaction with the deity, if it's felt they have called the person in question.

Agreed.

Quote:

i don't like metagenitics because it seems to much based on a chance occurance.

I disagree with that. I do not hold that incarnation is mere chance. But that's a different subject all together.

Quote:

i don't hold much stock in someone being born to a certain privilege (other than having easier access to said culture) and another not, and so does not get the same access.

Except that Closed Cultures are Closed for a reason. The outside culture is not in lines with what the Closed Culture wants for itself.

Quote:

it's the same reasoning i have behind not liking the stipulation that to be a president of the united states, one has to have been born a citizen. because one being born here automatically makes them more qualified to lead this country?

No- it just means they are less inclined to serve political interests outside of our nations over out own.  

[TeaDidikai]

EternalHearts

TeaDidikai

This brings up a very good point.

How do people feel about the balance of Metagenetic Mysteries and the respect for the culture that holds them when faced with a personal desire to learn?

The Elusinian Mysteries were open to anyone and everyone that could speak and understand Greek, so it can't be considered a Metagenetic Mystery.

I never said they were.  

[saint dreya]

Nuri

It still isn't the same as a metagenetic. They were open to quite a few people, you just had to go through the initation and meet the standards.
Which for the time, was pretty open. You had to speak greek, which I think (Eternal, correct me if I'm wrong) was one of the defining characteristics of being Greek. Not bloodlines.

my post was just to counter the 'Elusinian Mysteries were open to anyone and everyone that could speak and understand Greek' part. i didn't plan on addressing the relation to metagenetics. sorry i didn't specify.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

i don't like metagenitics because it seems to much based on a chance occurance.

I disagree with that. I do not hold that incarnation is mere chance. But that's a different subject all together.

good to know. i shan't use that part of argument then. thank you.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

i don't hold much stock in someone being born to a certain privilege (other than having easier access to said culture) and another not, and so does not get the same access.

Except that Closed Cultures are Closed for a reason. The outside culture is not in lines with what the Closed Culture wants for itself.

i think i'm having a bit of a hard time understanding this part. i am not advocating pushing oneself into a closed culture without going through the, um, 'necessary' steps, provided there are some. if not, well, then screw it and find a different way your god appreciates. the culture doesn't want you, find a place where you are wanted. ('you' being used in general sense, not directed at you specifically).

TeaDidikai

Quote:

it's the same reasoning i have behind not liking the stipulation that to be a president of the united states, one has to have been born a citizen. because one being born here automatically makes them more qualified to lead this country?

No- it just means they are less inclined to serve political interests outside of our nations over out own.

hadn't really heard of that, yet i still come in contact with those born of other nations who are 'gung-ho' when it comes to america, and those born here who were literally agreeing with osama. not the norm, i know, and i understand the point you bring up. then i wonder if perhaps there is a way to safeguard it so they actually are interested in this nation, and not their own priorities?  

[TeaDidikai]

phoenix_shadowwolf

Nuri

It still isn't the same as a metagenetic. They were open to quite a few people, you just had to go through the initation and meet the standards.
Which for the time, was pretty open. You had to speak greek, which I think (Eternal, correct me if I'm wrong) was one of the defining characteristics of being Greek. Not bloodlines.

my post was just to counter the 'Elusinian Mysteries were open to anyone and everyone that could speak and understand Greek' part. i didn't plan on addressing the relation to metagenetics. sorry i didn't specify.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

i don't like metagenitics because it seems to much based on a chance occurance.

I disagree with that. I do not hold that incarnation is mere chance. But that's a different subject all together.

good to know. i shan't use that part of argument then. thank you.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

i don't hold much stock in someone being born to a certain privilege (other than having easier access to said culture) and another not, and so does not get the same access.

Except that Closed Cultures are Closed for a reason. The outside culture is not in lines with what the Closed Culture wants for itself.

i think i'm having a bit of a hard time understanding this part. i am not advocating pushing oneself into a closed culture without going through the, um, 'necessary' steps, provided there are some. if not, well, then screw it and find a different way your god appreciates. the culture doesn't want you, find a place where you are wanted. ('you' being used in general sense, not directed at you specifically).

TeaDidikai

Quote:

it's the same reasoning i have behind not liking the stipulation that to be a president of the united states, one has to have been born a citizen. because one being born here automatically makes them more qualified to lead this country?

No- it just means they are less inclined to serve political interests outside of our nations over out own.

hadn't really heard of that, yet i still come in contact with those born of other nations who are 'gung-ho' when it comes to america, and those born here who were literally agreeing with osama. not the norm, i know, and i understand the point you bring up. then i wonder if perhaps there is a way to safeguard it so they actually are interested in this nation, and not their own priorities?

Ah. Got it. Thanks.

As for the president- well, there isn't a test out there that a clever person can't get around. ~Shrugs~  

[TheDisreputableDog]

I've never really thought about this before, so this is me just throwing out some ideas a little late for the raising of this thread.

I think it has to depend on the relationship between faith and culture. For example...how can I say this...the Norse aren't really around anymore, so their gods are in a sense 'up for grabs.' (Bear with me, I'm trying to get across the thought/word barrier on this one.) I'm not saying that you can just walk in and pick and choose the bits you like and leave out the rest. It's still a coherent culture that must be treated with respect, but the ties from human to god must be different because few people are born into it. Similarly, there are no more Romans.

The Rroma, on the other hand, are not a dead people. You can't claim heritage you don't have and expect the culture you're leeching off of or its gods to accept you. Funny how it's more popular here than with the Norse or Romans.

With Judaism, blood goes hand-in-hand with faith. It's tied to the religion, so although they're spread out more than in the days of the old prophets, it's still a huge family in a much realer sense than the 'family' of the human race in general.

Ugh. Tea, please yell at me for going at this all wrong. neutral  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

I've never really thought about this before, so this is me just throwing out some ideas a little late for the raising of this thread.

I think it has to depend on the relationship between faith and culture. For example...how can I say this...the Norse aren't really around anymore, so their gods are in a sense 'up for grabs.' (Bear with me, I'm trying to get across the thought/word barrier on this one.) I'm not saying that you can just walk in and pick and choose the bits you like and leave out the rest. It's still a coherent culture that must be treated with respect, but the ties from human to god must be different because few people are born into it. Similarly, there are no more Romans.

~Blinks~ There aren't? ~looks at the population of Rome, and the overall population of Sweden, Norway...~ Hmmmmm...

Quote:

The Rroma, on the other hand, are not a dead people. You can't claim heritage you don't have and expect the culture you're leeching off of or its gods to accept you. Funny how it's more popular here than with the Norse or Romans.

I blame the romanticism of repressed Victorian Scholars.

Quote:

With Judaism, blood goes hand-in-hand with faith. It's tied to the religion, so although they're spread out more than in the days of the old prophets, it's still a huge family in a much realer sense than the 'family' of the human race in general.
Ugh. Tea, please yell at me for going at this all wrong. neutral

You're not wrong... my major point is if the gods themselves say "We are your gods, you are our people, we want nothing to do with those that do not belong to us, and if they become part of the culture, they belong to the whole of the culture" is different than a position of silence on the subject.

Odin never said people who aren't of the Northlands cannot worship him. YHVH has a chosen people. Zoroastrains (unless you're heretical) have a bloodline to protect.  

[AvalonAuggie]

Tea, you constantly amaze and frighten me with your ability to create coherent topics on everything under the sun.

I have to side with Tsuzuki on the issue of the validity of metagenetics. If you hold to the concept of blood ties between a particular culture and particular deities, there's a limit to how far back you'd conveivably want to trace your ancestry. If we go back far enough humans have a common ancestor in Mitochondrial Eve but that doesn't mean we should all shift to some sort of African animist belief system.

I think for those of us not lucky enough to have that sense of direct lineage ties to a particular culture metagenetics becomes less important. I agree with you though that incorporating ancestral cultures in your faith can be quite spiritually fulfilling. But above all (and this is my American individualism talking) I think it's important to recognize what deities you feel called to follow. At the end of the day I'm living my life, not the lives of my ancestors.

That said, I'm attempting to derail this thread with a personal crisis, since this seems to be the place to ask about it. I feel called to at least investigate beliefs in my Afrian heritage. That particular side of the family's overwhelmingly Catholic (also includes French ancestry), but I don't feel terribly bad overlooking Christian ties ever since I found out my dad got excommunicated. My problem of course is knowing where to look. That pesky slavery problem makes it incredibly difficult to trace geneaology on that side of the family at all, and I have no idea which African cultures I should be looking at.

Does anyone know of good links for info on African religions? Or Afro-American geneaology?