Star Trek Trivia

[Steel Sterling]

Maddy

Oh. I didn't remember Riker being officially promoted so when you mentioned him I thought of Castillo's case.
You are right, though, you asked for "officially made captains".



BTW, in the episode where Nog entered Starfleet Academy, O'Brien made a comment about that. *points at Steel's mention of ranks*
He suddenly realised that by the time Nog finished the Academy he'd had to call Nog "Sir" because he'd be his superior.
O'Brien didn't like it one bit. razz

I was thinking of that when recounting when Nog asked about the
possibility of ending up as "Captain" if there was a lot of attrition during
a single mission.
O'Brien's response THERE contradicts his musings about Nog in the
academy.
We can argue O'Brien was a bit ill-tempered about the idea, and didn't
suggest to Nog that long-serving noncoms wouldn't be in the
chain-of-command ahead of him.


There's a short scene in "Best of Both Worlds II" where an Admiral is
communicating with Riker, and offers congratulations on making him
the ship's new Captain, and offering regrets on the circumstances that
removed the previous Captain.
Don't worry you forgot it- EVERYONE forgets it.
My friend Raf's explanation, long ago, as to why Riker's promotion didn't
stick afterwards-as some kind of Captain- was that the Admiral must
have died in battle with the Borg before getting around to logging Riker's
promotion. In an age where you can do so in seconds by telling a
computer, out loud, to log that, it's silly, but it's the best explanation I can
offer.....  

[Maddy]

*giggles*
Yeah, silly, but as good explanation as we'll get, I'm sure.  

[YoukaiLuvr]

One little note - it's Jellico, with two 'l's. I never liked Jellico, though, so why I'm saying anything is beyond me. confused  

[Steel Sterling]

Time for some independent thought.

In one episode, Picard had to argue, in a JAG court, that Data was more
than a machine, that Data was a sentient being.
Riker, to his dismay, had to argue the opposite position.

I'm one of the fans who feels that Picard did a VERY poor job of
the defense.
(One of the first things I would have done is tell Data himself to find
every possible precedent on the books from the past 300 years,
then rank them for relevance, then pass them to my assistant for
review. Of course, I would have asked for a volunteer to be my
assistant.)

========
Picard seemed to present a weak case, for the most part.
Riker didn't present an unassailable case, but he was making an
effort. IMHO, Riker was offering Picard a chance to win by making
his arguments turnable.

Riker based the strength of his prosecution on the modular aspect of
Data- that Data can remove parts of himself-
and on Data's ability to be switched off.


Let's say YOU were assisting the hapless Picard on this case.

1) Present at least one point Picard SHOULD HAVE USED to defend
Data's rights.

2) Present at least one rebuttal to Riker's case, on either or both of the
properties of Data's bodies.  

[Maddy]

Oh, this is very interesting.

Of course, I'll need thinking and analysing it a lot before coming up with a proper answer... but in the mean time, I hope I'd be allowed to discuss the ideas I'm having about it...




Can we make a case of "switching off Data" being the same/very similar to putting someone into a comma?  

[Steel Sterling]

You may make any case you wish- but you will need to clearly demonstrate
RELEVANCE if you want to rescue Data. smile  

[Maddy]

Steel Sterling

You may make any case you wish- but you will need to clearly demonstrate
RELEVANCE if you want to rescue Data. smile

Well, I was going for the "that's not a thing only for machines... so that he can be switched off doesn't mean he has to be a machine"

I was trying to rebut Riker's "puppet" argument. At least to a point.  

[Steel Sterling]

Here's some direct quotes from the script.

Before any hearing:
===========
Picard: Starfleet is not an organization that ignores its own regulations when they become inconvenient. Whether you like it or not,
Data. Does. Have. Rights.


Maddox: Let me put it another way. Would you permit the computer on the Enterprise to refuse a refit?


Phillipa: An interesting point, but the Enterprise computer is property. Is Data?

Maddox: Of course.

Phillipa: There might be law to support that position.


Picard: A decision with such broad-ranging implications must be supported by an official ruling.
And I trust you will apply the same zeal to your research that you used during the Stargazer court-martial.

================

Phillipa: I have completed my research, and based on the Acts of GouldCumberland passed in the early twenty-first century, Data is the property of Starfleet. He cannot resign and he cannot refuse to cooperate with Commander Maddox.

Picard: And if I challenge this ruling?


Phillipa: I will be required to hold a hearing.

Picard: Then I so challenge. Convene your hearing.  

[Steel Sterling]

More direct quotes.

=============

Philippa: This hearing convened on stardate 42524.1 is to determine the legal status of the android known as Data. The office of the Judge Advocate General has rendered a finding of property, defense has challenged. Commander Riker.


RIKER: Your honor, there is only one issue in this case and one relevant piece of evidence. I call Lieutenant Commander Data.


COMPUTER VOICE: Verify, Lieutenant Commander Data. Current assignment, USS Enterprise. Starfleet Command Decoration for...

RIKER: Your honor, we'll stipulate to all of this.


PICARD: Objection, your honor, I want it read. All of it.

PHILLIPA: Sustained.

COMPUTER VOICE: ... Gallantry, Medal of Honor with clusters, Legion of Honor, the Star Cross.


RIKER: Commander Data, what are you?

DATA: An android.

RIKER: Which is?

DATA: Webster's Twenty-Third Century Dictionary, Fifth Edition, defines Android as an automaton made to resemble a human being.

RIKER: An automaton. Made. Made by whom?

DATA: Sir?

RIKER: Who built you, Data?

DATA: Doctor Noonien Soong.

RIKER: And he was?

DATA: The foremost authority in cybernetics.

RIKER: More basic than that. What was he?

DATA: A human?

RIKER: Thank you. Data. What is the capacity of your memory, and how fast can you process information?

DATA: I have an ultimate storage capacity of eight hundred quadrillion bits. My total linear computational speed has been rated at sixty trillion operations per second.


RIKER: Your honor, I offer into evidence prosecution's exhibit A. A bar of plasteel with a tensile strength of forty kilo-bars.
Commander Data, would you please bend that?


PICARD: Objection, your honor. Many races possess meta-human strength. It's not relevant to the issue before this court.


PHILLIPA: I'm afraid I can't agree, Captain. Proceed with the demonstration, Commander Riker.


DATA: *bends bar*

RIKER: Drawing on the log record of the construction of the prototype android Lore, also constructed by Noonien Soong, I request that I be allowed to remove Commander Data's hand for your inspection.


PICARD: Objection! What is the point of all this?


PHILLIPA: The issue before this court is whether Data is machine, and by extension property. I'd say this is pretty damn relevant.


RIKER: *removes Data's hand*
(whispers to Data) I'm sorry.


RIKER: Data is a physical representation of a dream, an idea conceived of by the mind of a man. His purpose? To serve human needs and interests. He is a collection of neural nets and heuristic algorithms. His responses are dictated by an elaborate software program written by a man. The hardware was built by a man.
*switches off Data*
And this man has turned him off. Pinocchio is broken, the strings are cut.


PICARD: I request a recess.

PHILLIPA: Granted.  

[Maddy]

Steel Sterling

COMPUTER VOICE: Verify, Lieutenant Commander Data. Current assignment, USS Enterprise. Starfleet Command Decoration for...

RIKER: Your honor, we'll stipulate to all of this.


PICARD: Objection, your honor, I want it read. All of it.

PHILLIPA: Sustained.

COMPUTER VOICE: ... Gallantry, Medal of Honor with clusters, Legion of Honor, the Star Cross.

I wonder why Picard didn't make a point of Starfleet recognizing Data as a person by the fact that they gave him those medals.
Assuming of course that Starfleet doesn't give Medals of Honor to machines, I mean.

Quote:

RIKER: Your honor, I offer into evidence prosecution's exhibit A. A bar of plasteel with a tensile strength of forty kilo-bars.
Commander Data, would you please bend that?


PICARD: Objection, your honor. Many races possess meta-human strength. It's not relevant to the issue before this court.

That should have been:
"Objection, you honor. We're not here to decide that Data is human. Because we know he isn't human. We're here to decide if he's a sentient being. Measuring Data by human standards it's not relevant. We don't decide that a new individual is a person because he shows similarity to humans but because he complies with the basic parameters of "person" and "sentient being"."


Furthermore, I would advise Picard to list all the sentient being Starfleet encountered in all the years they spent in space that aren't even human-like and have different abilities.

Quote:

RIKER: Data is a physical representation of a dream, an idea conceived of by the mind of a man. His purpose? To serve human needs and interests. He is a collection of neural nets and heuristic algorithms. His responses are dictated by an elaborate software program written by a man. The hardware was built by a man.
*switches off Data*
And this man has turned him off. Pinocchio is broken, the strings are cut.

I like that quote. And gives me so many ideas of how to point things against that argument... but I want to hear other people's ideas too.

*waits for someone else to give some ideas*  

[Steel Sterling]

I agree with your points so far.
I want to see if someone mentions what I consider the most basic
argument Picard should have made, something that should have
closed the hearing all by itself....  

[Maddy]

Random question: (yes, somehow related to our current discussion)

Does anyone happen to know if Starfleet recognise Borgs as a person, sentient being, whatever?


(If someone answers to that with "yes" it will give me the answer to the "we can detach Data's arm from his body so he has to be a machine"... Yeah, I know you can argue borgs have a biological part too, but I may have a way around that as well)  

[Maddy]

Steel Sterling

I agree with your points so far.
I want to see if someone mentions what I consider the most basic
argument Picard should have made, something that should have
closed the hearing all by itself....

smile

As you may have realised already, I don't usually go for the basic and get tangled in the complicated, twisted, puzzle-like half ideas... so I'm warning you, you may be disappointed with me, imzadi.  

[Maddy]

Steel Sterling

RIKER: Data is a physical representation of a dream, an idea conceived of by the mind of a man. His purpose? To serve human needs and interests.

Did Data at any point during the trial answer the question as to which he thinks it's his purpose?  

[Steel Sterling]

Maddy

Random question: (yes, somehow related to our current discussion)

Does anyone happen to know if Starfleet recognise Borgs as a person, sentient being, whatever?


(If someone answers to that with "yes" it will give me the answer to the "we can detach Data's arm from his body so he has to be a machine"... Yeah, I know you can argue borgs have a biological part too, but I may have a way around that as well)

From "I Borg"

"BEVERLY: He suffered massive internal injuries. We've got the hemorrhaging under control, but some of the implants in his brain were damaged. I may have to remove them.

PICARD The Borg will die if they're removed permanently. Their brains grow dependent on the biochips. "


The Federation acknowledges the Borg as alive.
============

Same episode, Beverly-and their reactions to her- get specific.


"DATA The Borg are extremely computer-dependent. A total systems failure will destroy them.

BEVERLY I just think we should be plain about that. We're talking about annihilating an entire race...

PICARD Which under most circumstances would be unconscionable. But as I see it, the Borg leave us little choice.

RIKER I agree. We're at war.

BEVERLY There's been no formal declaration of war...

TROI Not from our side. But certainly from theirs. They've attacked us in every encounter we've had.

PICARD They have declared war on our way of life. We are to be assimilated.

BEVERLY Even in war, there are rules. You don't kill civilians indiscriminately.

RIKER There are no civilians among the Borg.

PICARD Think of them as a single, collective being. Any one Borg is no more an individual than your arm or your leg.

BEVERLY How convenient.

PICARD Your point?

BEVERLY When I look at my patient, I don't see a collective consciousness... I don't see a hive... I see a living, breathing boy... who's been hurt and who needs help. And we're talking about sending him back to his people as an instrument of destruction.


PICARD It comes down to this: We are faced with an enemy that is determined to destroy us, and with whom we have no hope of negotiating peace. Unless that changes, we are justified in doing anything we can to survive. "

===============
Beverly calls causing "total systems failure" a GENOCIDE of the Borg.
(She doesn't use the WORD "genocide", but she uses the concept-
"annihilating an entire race."
She calls the Borg a "race."

NOBODY challenges her assertions.
They challenge whether or not genocide is JUSTIFIED.

Beverly suggests there are "civilians" among the Borg.

She calls the Borg a "people" to the Borg they later call "Hugh."

Picard concludes the discussion by saying, in effect, if the Federation does
not commit genocide against the Borg, the Borg will effectively do the
same to the Federation (and have tried before.)