This is a stupid question but I'm going to ask anyway thread

[Recursive Paradox]

Aino Ailill

What exactly does a blessing entail that it is offensive for another person to say 'Blessed be?'

I usually base my offense more on the fact that the person has not explained what that blessing entails and whether it would be something I would want. Etherists have a bit different needs than say, many theists.  

[Collowrath]

Recursive Paradox

Aino Ailill

What exactly does a blessing entail that it is offensive for another person to say 'Blessed be?'

I usually base my offense more on the fact that the person has not explained what that blessing entails and whether it would be something I would want. Etherists have a bit different needs than say, many theists.

This is an issue as well - while the phrase itself is just silly outside of its context, the intention behind it can be pretty thoughtless, especially on a multi-national, multi-religious forum.  

[Aino Ailill]

Collowrath

Recursive Paradox

Aino Ailill

What exactly does a blessing entail that it is offensive for another person to say 'Blessed be?'

I usually base my offense more on the fact that the person has not explained what that blessing entails and whether it would be something I would want. Etherists have a bit different needs than say, many theists.

This is an issue as well - while the phrase itself is just silly outside of its context, the intention behind it can be pretty thoughtless, especially on a multi-national, multi-religious forum.

Meriam-Webster

1 : to hallow or consecrate by religious rite or word
2 : to hallow with the sign of the cross
3 : to invoke divine care for —used in the phrase bless you to wish good health especially to one who has just sneezed
4 a : praise, glorify b : to speak well of : approve
5 : to confer prosperity or happiness upon
6 archaic : protect, preserve
7 : endow, favor

The word itself can mean simple well-wishings. I don't see why it would be necessarily silly. Were I to say the phrase to somebody (being an atheist), I would not be invoking divine care but rather using the fifth definition (bolded above).  

[Collowrath]

Aino Ailill

The word itself can mean simple well-wishings. I don't see why it would be necessarily silly. Were I to say the phrase to somebody (being an atheist), I would not be invoking divine care but rather using the fifth definition (bolded above).

You're right, but the part that makes it thoughtless is when someone is clearly using it to mean "divine care" or to "hallow or consecrate by religious rite or word." This is why you see some people on the forums here asking "which god?" A blessing from Freyja and from Zeus would mean something entirely different, and may not be welcome.  

[Aino Ailill]

Collowrath

Aino Ailill

The word itself can mean simple well-wishings. I don't see why it would be necessarily silly. Were I to say the phrase to somebody (being an atheist), I would not be invoking divine care but rather using the fifth definition (bolded above).

You're right, but the part that makes it thoughtless is when someone is clearly using it to mean "divine care" or to "hallow or consecrate by religious rite or word." This is why you see some people on the forums here asking "which god?" A blessing from Freyja and from Zeus would mean something entirely different, and may not be welcome.

Ah, 'kay.  

[TeaDidikai]

My issue with "Blessed Be" or other "Blessings" is as follows:

Someone who isn't of the Wica using Blessed Be is decontextualizing it.

Someone who is issuing generic blessings isn't being thoughtful, and thus might not understand the ramifications of their words. (Same with idiots who issue thoughtless generic curses as well. Ended a friendship over that recently.)

Someone who is issuing thoughtful blessings that may contaminate me by inflicting their concept of blessing on me in place of my path's concept of blessing, while trying to be "thoughtful" is still being thoughtless- in that they are ignoring my tradition in favor of their own in a way that is detrimental to me.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Someone who is issuing thoughtful blessings that may contaminate me by inflicting their concept of blessing on me in place of my path's concept of blessing, while trying to be "thoughtful" is still being thoughtless- in that they are ignoring my tradition in favor of their own in a way that is detrimental to me.

Why would it contaminate you, if you don't mind my asking?  

[Aino Ailill]

TeaDidikai

My issue with "Blessed Be" or other "Blessings" is as follows:

Someone who isn't of the Wica using Blessed Be is decontextualizing it.

Someone who is issuing generic blessings isn't being thoughtful, and thus might not understand the ramifications of their words. (Same with idiots who issue thoughtless generic curses as well. Ended a friendship over that recently.)

Someone who is issuing thoughtful blessings that may contaminate me by inflicting their concept of blessing on me in place of my path's concept of blessing, while trying to be "thoughtful" is still being thoughtless- in that they are ignoring my tradition in favor of their own in a way that is detrimental to me.

But if a person were to say, 'May you be blessed' and do so with the meaning of the fifth definition I posted above (Be Well, essentially), and it was clear it was being used in this context, you wouldn't have an issue?

And I'm interested in hearing your answer to Sophist's question. smile  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

TeaDidikai

Someone who is issuing thoughtful blessings that may contaminate me by inflicting their concept of blessing on me in place of my path's concept of blessing, while trying to be "thoughtful" is still being thoughtless- in that they are ignoring my tradition in favor of their own in a way that is detrimental to me.

Why would it contaminate you, if you don't mind my asking?

The instance I recall off the top of my head is far too personal to discuss.

Think of it this way. Someone walks up to a solider who is oathed to Odin and seeks to die on the battle field. Said someone wishes them "peace". Sure, peace might be an amazing thing, but in short, it's sending that person to Hel.  

[Aino Ailill]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

TeaDidikai

Someone who is issuing thoughtful blessings that may contaminate me by inflicting their concept of blessing on me in place of my path's concept of blessing, while trying to be "thoughtful" is still being thoughtless- in that they are ignoring my tradition in favor of their own in a way that is detrimental to me.

Why would it contaminate you, if you don't mind my asking?

The instance I recall off the top of my head is far too personal to discuss.

Think of it this way. Someone walks up to a solider who is oathed to Odin and seeks to die on the battle field. Said someone wishes them "peace". Sure, peace might be an amazing thing, but in short, it's sending that person to Hel.

Ouch. *winces*  

[TeaDidikai]

Aino Ailill

But if a person were to say, 'May you be blessed' and do so with the meaning of the fifth definition I posted above (Be Well, essentially), and it was clear it was being used in this context, you wouldn't have an issue?

People who want to wish me well should skip the loaded word bless.

Even if there is a denotative value that is good, it's connotative value on either end may be unwelcome, and while I wouldn't fault them for accuracy, I could fault for intent depending on the situation. That example I gave would be a lot better for this situation than it is for my own.

Quote:

And I'm interested in hearing your answer to Sophist's question. smile

The example I gave was very poor. Basically in my personal case, it had a lot to do with the differences between my culture and theirs- the way they pollute themselves and them wishing it on me, because they think it's "good", when it's tantamount to wishing an Orthodox Jew to enjoy the Shrimp Cocktail.  

[River_Moonwolf]

I admit, I use 'Blessed Be' quite a bit, and have distanced myself from official Wicca for various reasons. I never use it to offend, merely to wish blessings upon whoever it is I'm speaking to. Since I have offended here in the past, I try not to use it.

But in a larger since, particularly here, where let's admit, tempers and emotions have been known to flare a bit, I find something vaguely troubling. No offense is meant at all, and I would appreciate any input. My problem is this: while reclaiming various words, beliefs, traditions, etc. is a good and wonderful thing, and enlightening others on how certain words are considered slurs, just where does one draw the line? Isn't there a point at which we should just shrug and say "ok, looks like either the world's moved on on this one or the word/meaning what have you have evolved?" No offense, Tea, truly, but if someone wishes to use a blessing and it's what they were taught, with no ill/harmful will meant isn't it better to just let it go, or is this something really worth the struggle? Keep in mind, I'm currently going through an evaluation of all I've learned, maybe seeking a mentor soon, so this isn't the usual River snarkiness, just truly curious.  

[Nines19]

River_Moonwolf

I admit, I use 'Blessed Be' quite a bit, and have distanced myself from official Wicca for various reasons. I never use it to offend, merely to wish blessings upon whoever it is I'm speaking to. Since I have offended here in the past, I try not to use it.

But in a larger since, particularly here, where let's admit, tempers and emotions have been known to flare a bit, I find something vaguely troubling. No offense is meant at all, and I would appreciate any input. My problem is this: while reclaiming various words, beliefs, traditions, etc. is a good and wonderful thing, and enlightening others on how certain words are considered slurs, just where does one draw the line? Isn't there a point at which we should just shrug and say "ok, looks like either the world's moved on on this one or the word/meaning what have you have evolved?" No offense, Tea, truly, but if someone wishes to use a blessing and it's what they were taught, with no ill/harmful will meant isn't it better to just let it go, or is this something really worth the struggle? Keep in mind, I'm currently going through an evaluation of all I've learned, maybe seeking a mentor soon, so this isn't the usual River snarkiness, just truly curious.

(My opinion) It's not necessarily worth the struggle but, especially if the context implies that the blessing is shallow and/or not actually meant as anything but filler and superiority, it may seem the same as any challenged insult.  

[maenad nuri]

Nines19

River_Moonwolf

I admit, I use 'Blessed Be' quite a bit, and have distanced myself from official Wicca for various reasons. I never use it to offend, merely to wish blessings upon whoever it is I'm speaking to. Since I have offended here in the past, I try not to use it.

But in a larger since, particularly here, where let's admit, tempers and emotions have been known to flare a bit, I find something vaguely troubling. No offense is meant at all, and I would appreciate any input. My problem is this: while reclaiming various words, beliefs, traditions, etc. is a good and wonderful thing, and enlightening others on how certain words are considered slurs, just where does one draw the line? Isn't there a point at which we should just shrug and say "ok, looks like either the world's moved on on this one or the word/meaning what have you have evolved?" No offense, Tea, truly, but if someone wishes to use a blessing and it's what they were taught, with no ill/harmful will meant isn't it better to just let it go, or is this something really worth the struggle? Keep in mind, I'm currently going through an evaluation of all I've learned, maybe seeking a mentor soon, so this isn't the usual River snarkiness, just truly curious.

(My opinion) It's not necessarily worth the struggle but, especially if the context implies that the blessing is shallow and/or not actually meant as anything but filler and superiority, it may seem the same as any challenged insult.

The thing is; sociolinguistically, most of these solicititudes are shallow. They are automatic and not really heartfelt -- they might change based on the situation a little, but they are closer to "Have a great day" that a cashier might say before saying goodbye than to a heartfelt wish. The context is different, but they are almost entirely filler anyways.

Most of the time, I don't see much of a difference. Certainly sometimes, and I think most people can tell when the context changes to when it is more sincerely meant.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this; I'm just throwing this out there. Solicitudes were a large part of my sociolinguistics class, and I'll have to drag out my notes and my paper on them, but yeah -- I don't see a whole lot of difference.  

[Recursive Paradox]

River_Moonwolf

Isn't there a point at which we should just shrug and say "ok, looks like either the world's moved on on this one or the word/meaning what have you have evolved?"

Such a point would be where the slur in question is no longer used to debase, marginalize or attack a group.

Quote:

No offense, Tea, truly, but if someone wishes to use a blessing and it's what they were taught, with no ill/harmful will meant isn't it better to just let it go, or is this something really worth the struggle?

If someone wishes to run around with a loaded shotgun and it's what they were taught, with no ill/harmful will meant, is it better to just let it go when they could end up blowing someone's head off?

To me, intent means very little. What matters more is results. When someone issues a blessing or a curse that blessing or curse may in fact have the push of more powerful beings behind it. Treating it as invariably just words is dangerous because if something stronger is pushing the effects then someone else is hurt because of cultural and need based differences.

A blessing that wishes me to have no pain in the future may deny me several opportunities for growth from adversity and would be incredibly destructive to my exertion of the primary pillar of my path if a stronger being is backing it up.

Which is why I outright refuse blessings that are not explained. I don't tell the person they're awful for saying it, or crit them or anything. I just refuse the blessing and ask for it to be explained.