Welcome to the Rehab Center

[TeaDidikai]

Rajani Kali

one must be active in one’s cultural customs.

So- if I go to Ireland and participate in those traditions- even though I am leathgael, I suddenly become a Gael?

Quote:

I'm still very unfamiliar with the Irish idea of justice, but I'm reading as much as I can about Brehon law right now.

If you are ignorant of the cultural oaths, laws and traditions, how can you posit how they apply to you?  

[shades of sylk]

I'm sylk. Graduate student in geology. Been slowly working on the development of my own path that's best described as eclectic Pagan and based to a very large extent on UPG for the past 3 years or so. I don't claim to understand things anywhere near as well as some of the people here, but I do try my best to stay out of fluffiness.

I normally lurk a fair bit and just enjoy the discussion, as it stimulates my thoughts. Additional resources are also always useful.  

[TeaDidikai]

Welcome to the guild Sylk.  

[Ainwyn]

TeaDidikai

Rajani Kali

one must be active in one’s cultural customs.

So- if I go to Ireland and participate in those traditions- even though I am leathgael, I suddenly become a Gael?

First, question. What does leathgael mean? I googled it and it only came up with one match, which wasn't very helpful in explaining it... the first thought I had was that it meant "non-Gael", but I'm not sure.

But no, I didn't say anywhere that just going to Ireland and participating in their traditions would suddenly make you a Gael. What I said was that you can't consider yourself part of the culture if you have the heredity and speak the language, but don't actually participate in the culture. I can't think why a person would learn Irish and then not become active in that culture in some way, it seems to go against common sense. But you never know.

Quote:

Quote:

I'm still very unfamiliar with the Irish idea of justice, but I'm reading as much as I can about Brehon law right now.

If you are ignorant of the cultural oaths, laws and traditions, how can you posit how they apply to you?

Just because I don't fully grasp the idea of Fíreoin or everything that is discussed in Brehon doesn't mean that I don't at least have a vague idea on other aspects of Irish morality. When CuAnnan asked about cultural laws, I assumed it meant their sense of morality just as much as their system of justice. If he meant things applying to Ireland's modern government, I'm even less knowledgeable, but that's something I'm trying to learn more about before I go to Ireland. Forgive me if I misunderstood your intentions.  

[TeaDidikai]

Rajani Kali

First, question. What does leathgael mean? I googled it and it only came up with one match, which wasn't very helpful in explaining it... the first thought I had was that it meant "non-Gael", but I'm not sure.

"Half-Gael". I'm titled such by virtue of adoption.

Quote:

But no, I didn't say anywhere that just going to Ireland and participating in their traditions would suddenly make you a Gael. What I said was that you can't consider yourself part of the culture if you have the heredity and speak the language, but don't actually participate in the culture.

But as I am a leathgael, upon taking part in the culture- do I become a full gael?

Quote:

Just because I don't fully grasp the idea of Fíreoin or everything that is discussed in Brehon doesn't mean that I don't at least have a vague idea on other aspects of Irish morality.

When I read Cu's post, I was sure he addressed cultural laws, not morality. Morality may be reflected, but it is also independent of law.

Quote:

When CuAnnan asked about cultural laws, I assumed it meant their sense of morality just as much as their system of justice.

Why was that the assumption? And where do the laws begin and end within a culture and is there an assumption that the Brehon will cover all of it?  

[CuAnnan]

TeaDidikai

But as I am a leathgael, upon taking part in the culture- do I become a full gael?

Just to clarify, you had leathgael conferred upon you.
You were entitled to it, in that your grandparents were of the Blood.

TeaDidikai

When I read Cu's post, I was sure he addressed cultural laws, not morality. Morality may be reflected, but it is also independent of law.

It's arguable, in this instance, they are one and the same. The Brehon law was a codified legal system that very well reflected our morality.

TeaDidikai

Why was that the assumption? And where do the laws begin and end within a culture and is there an assumption that the Brehon will cover all of it?

That's an excellent question and one which had not yet occured to me. I will actually add that to my repertoire if you don't mind.  

[TeaDidikai]

CuAnnan

Just to clarify, you had leathgael conferred upon you.
You were entitled to it, in that your grandparents were of the Blood.

True enough.

Quote:

It's arguable, in this instance, they are one and the same. The Brehon law was a codified legal system that very well reflected our morality.

I would argue that the morality existed independently of the law being codified, that the morality of a person could not be held as universal amongst a people independent of the law, and that there are elements of the morality that transcend the people.

Any corrections or sticking points?

Quote:

I will actually add that to my repertoire if you don't mind.

I'm honored Love.  

[Ainwyn]

I suppose "morality" was a bad word choice. I was thinking along the lines of cultural values, which would be slightly different, though still based on and including much of, Brehon Law. From what I've read about it, there are many things within it that aren't applicable to how we live today, such as slavery, some of the hereditary rights, and some of the ideas towards neme status and disabilities (to name a few), but it's still the best way to understand how they lived and to apply their cultural values to ourselves. Loyalty, hospitality, family values, honesty, the importance of oaths, charity and generosity are a lot of the values that I've gotten from what I've read of Brehon Law. I just haven't been able to find anything about Brehon Law that went beyond a summary of it - mostly because all I have to work with right now is the internet. I'm about to go search JSTOR for articles, but any suggestions on books I should look into when I get back to the States would be very helpful.  

[Nomad of Nowhere]

18 year-old Eclectic. I am doomed to draw parallels from Egyptian, Greek, Sumerian, Slavic, Levantine, Irish, Indian, etc. myths and symbols to the end of time. My user name is obviously inaccurate, but please don't sue.
My mom was Jewish, my dad was... sort of... Catholic, and I was Jewish for awhile. My interest in history is sort of what led me to become pagan. I mean, the more you learn about the ancient world, the more absurd the Abrahamic monopoly seems. Then I came in contact with some Asatru materials, and things sort of took off from there, although I might not have that much in common with any Asatruar anymore.  

[Maxwell_Pink]

I've been suffering from brain fry lately so I've limited my presence here to lurking, for now, but I figured I should be polite and introduce myself.

Hi! I'm Max. I have been studying Wicca and Witchcraft off and on for about 30 years, got serious about it 10 years back, and have been a practicing Seax-Wican for about three years. Feel free to offer your input on where you think my trad stands in the grand scheme of all things pagan, 'cause apparently I don't have a clue. blaugh

Nuri

A Pagan, (by my defenition, and this does change) is a member of a non-Big5 religion. That being said, it is an umbrella term for a number of different religions/faiths/paths.

I'm aware of the "Big 3". What are the other two?  

[TeaDidikai]

Maxwell_Pink

Feel free to offer your input on where you think my trad stands in the grand scheme of all things pagan, 'cause apparently I don't have a clue. blaugh

Seax-Wica as according to Buckland?

Quote:

I'm aware of the "Big 3". What are the other two?

Hinduism and Buddhism.  

[Maxwell_Pink]

TeaDidikai

Seax-Wica as according to Buckland?

Yeah, but with a slight hint of Theodish Belief (Theodism?).

TeaDidikai

Hinduism and Buddhism.

Ah! Gotcha! I keep forgetting that many do not classify those two as Pagan, though I never understood why. Any chance you would point in the direction of accurate info so I can find out? smile  

[TeaDidikai]

Maxwell_Pink

Yeah, but with a slight hint of Theodish Belief (Theodism?).

That being the case- not Wica, not well researched and perpetuated by an oathbreaker and a racist.

That said- if it makes you happy, have at it.

Quote:

Ah! Gotcha! I keep forgetting that many do not classify those two as Pagan, though I never understood why. Any chance you would point in the direction of accurate info so I can find out? smile

Would if I could. Myself, I consider them pagan.  

[Ainwyn]

Maxwell_Pink

Ah! Gotcha! I keep forgetting that many do not classify those two as Pagan, though I never understood why. Any chance you would point in the direction of accurate info so I can find out? smile

It really depends on which versions of those religions you're looking at. There are certain sects of Hinduism which are pretty hardcore polytheistic, but there are others that believe all the gods are simply representations of Brahma (I'm totally forgetting if I'm getting His name right at the moment, forgive me). This is especially true in Indonesia, where a religion must be monotheistic to be considered a national religion at all!

As for Buddhism, there are some places (like Tibet, for instance), where the teachings of Siddhartha have been mixed with folk religions, and have thus created a pagan religion. But there are other places where there are, in fact, no gods at all. The Buddhism I study here in Korea (Seon Buddhism), is a type of Zen Buddhism; there are no gods in Seon. And Buddhism is another of those Indonesian religions that has been modified to fit into their "monotheistic" structure.

As for my sources on this, it's a combination of knowledge I've gotten from 3 summers of studying with a sunim (Korean Buddhist nun/monk), and from my comparative religions class this past spring. I can't give specific textual sources for the latter at the moment, as I'm still in Korea and my books are on the other side of the world, but if you'd like to know, I'd be happy to tell you once I'm back (in a month...).  

[TeaDidikai]

Rajani Kali? It seems like the explanation is that Pagan = Polytheistic and that is why the other two traditions are excluded. Is this a correct understanding of the point behind the post?