Welcome to the Rehab Center

[Taliah]

Hello, I'm Taliah, and I am 19 years old, a college student, and I have recently come to a spiritual crossroads in my life. I come from a Christian background, but I didn't feel very welcome in that religious environment, so I have made it a goal to seek out and explore other belief systems, cultural philosophies and such... and so far I've been attracted to the Paganistic side of them.

I hope to expand my limited knowledge here, as well as make some new friends. smile It's a pleasure to meet all of you.  

[Ainwyn]

I finally stumbled upon the pagan sections of the forums and found this place, it seemed to be the best (and most active) pagan guild, so here I am!
I'm 22 and studying music and cultural anthropology at university (in an attempt to make it into grad school for ethnomusicology), and taking a comparative religions course last term sort of revived my interest in studying Celtic religions and culture in general. I've been studying paganism for 10 years, and Celtic paganism for about 7. I'm most interested in something along the lines of Celtic recon or Gaelic trad, because a great deal of my interest is in preserving traditional (and by that, I mean what's been there the last century or so) Celtic culture and language. I don't know Gaelic yet, but I'm starting to learn (it's difficult to learn Gaelic while I'm in Korea, but I've found some decent websites).
Also, I've recently been very drawn to Slavic and Romani cultures, and would love to learn more about their older religions - I've done a lot of research on Eastern Orthodoxy and Romani beliefs lately, but learning about their pre-Christain religions is proving a little more difficult.

So yeah, I have a lot to learn.... smile  

[With Motion]

Rajani Kali

I finally stumbled upon the pagan sections of the forums and found this place, it seemed to be the best (and most active) pagan guild, so here I am!
I'm 22 and studying music and cultural anthropology at university (in an attempt to make it into grad school for ethnomusicology), and taking a comparative religions course last term sort of revived my interest in studying Celtic religions and culture in general. I've been studying paganism for 10 years, and Celtic paganism for about 7. I'm most interested in something along the lines of Celtic recon or Gaelic trad, because a great deal of my interest is in preserving traditional (and by that, I mean what's been there the last century or so) Celtic culture and language. I don't know Gaelic yet, but I'm starting to learn (it's difficult to learn Gaelic while I'm in Korea, but I've found some decent websites).
Also, I've recently been very drawn to Slavic and Romani cultures, and would love to learn more about their older religions - I've done a lot of research on Eastern Orthodoxy and Romani beliefs lately, but learning about their pre-Christain religions is proving a little more difficult.

So yeah, I have a lot to learn.... smile

hey... you were in that thread in the music forum about celtic music! Tee hee =3  

[Ainwyn]

Yes, yes I was biggrin Celtic music is kind of my life lol It's one of those few times when I wish I was a violinist and not a cellist.  

[CuAnnan]

Rajani Kali

I'm most interested in something along the lines of Celtic recon or Gaelic trad

Your culture:
What makes one a Celt?
What makes you a Celt?
How do the cultural laws of the Celts apply to you?

Your sources:
What are they?
How credible are they?
What scholastic research have you done?

Rajani Kali

because a great deal of my interest is in preserving traditional (and by that, I mean what's been there the last century or so) Celtic culture and language. I don't know Gaelic yet, but I'm starting to learn (it's difficult to learn Gaelic while I'm in Korea, but I've found some decent websites).

The Goedelic languages were never meant to be written.
So unless you speak Sanskrit and the site uses Sanskrit to write it (or some other language with the correct phonems to describe the Goedelic languages), you will not be able to learn to speak them from a website.  

[Ainwyn]

But Gaelic is a written language now, and it is this language which I wish to preserve. There is no where that I implied I wanted to learn an ancient language, just an endangered one. I know very well that the language of the ancient Celts was never meant to be written; I am actually in the middle of a debate about this on an email group (some guy is trying to say that the Celts must have always had a written language, because if they didn't, that would make them a less worthy culture rolleyes ). But it is modern Irish that is of use to me on the path I wish to pursue as an ethnomusicologist. That being said, the sites I have found use recorded examples, which is a must for me. I have tried learning Gaelic in the past with the lessons merely written out and a phoenetic guide, and failed miserably. It is, by all means, a language that must be learned aurally, but then, what language isn't?

As for the other questions, I will have to think them over and get back to you, as they are definitely things that shouldn't be taken lightly and answered on a whim. Would you like me to respond to them here or through a PM?  

[CuAnnan]

Rajani Kali

But Gaelic is a written language now, and it is this language which I wish to preserve. There is no where that I implied I wanted to learn an ancient language, just an endangered one.

You, clearly, misunderstood what I was saying.
You cannot learn the Irish language or, to the best of my knowledge, the Scots Gaelic language without hearing it and being immersed in it. The rules are incredibly simple, making the language itself incredibly complex.

Rajani Kali

some guy is trying to say that the Celts must have always had a written language

It's called Ogham. It's just not a phonetic alphabet.

Rajani Kali

But it is modern Irish that is of use to me on the path I wish to pursue as an ethnomusicologist.

Learning to speak my first language will not help your aim of becoming an ethnomusicologist.

Rajani Kali

Would you like me to respond to them here or through a PM?

Here.  

[Ainwyn]

CuAnnan

Rajani Kali

But Gaelic is a written language now, and it is this language which I wish to preserve. There is no where that I implied I wanted to learn an ancient language, just an endangered one.

You, clearly, misunderstood what I was saying.
You cannot learn the Irish language or, to the best of my knowledge, the Scots Gaelic language without hearing it and being immersed in it. The rules are incredibly simple, making the language itself incredibly complex.

I do understand what you're saying. The websites I've found (which do have recorded passages) are merely to help me get a vague understanding of the language before I (hopefully) go to the University of Cork in a year to study traditional music. I'd be taking Gaelic classes then.

CuAnnan

It's called Ogham. It's just not a phonetic alphabet.

I was lead to believe that Ogham was not in use until at the earliest 400 AD, and that then from the evidence we have, it was only used on funeral stones and border markers.

Peter Berresford Ellis

"Ogham(ogam) is the earliest form of Irish writing in which alphabetical units are represented by varying numbers of strokes and notches marked on the edge of stones monuments; it may also have been used on lengths of wood or bone, although none has survived. It is a cipher based on the Latin alphabet and the bulk of survivals are dated around the fifth and sixth centuries AD. Ogham inscriptions do not date prior to the Christian period in Ireland..." (11)

Rajani Kali

But it is modern Irish that is of use to me on the path I wish to pursue as an ethnomusicologist.

CuAnnan

Learning to speak my first language will not help your aim of becoming an ethnomusicologist.

It will if I wish to do field work in primarily Gaelic speaking areas of Ireland, or work with traditional folklore that only exists in Gaelic, or learn to sing correctly in Gaelic.  

[CuAnnan]

Rajani Kali

The websites I've found (which do have recorded passages) are merely to help me get a vague understanding of the language before I (hopefully) go to the University of Cork in a year to study traditional music. I'd be taking Gaelic classes then.

The name of the language is "Irish".
And I wasn't aware that UCC did a trad music course.

Rajani Kali

I was lead to believe that Ogham was not in use until at the earliest 400 AD, and that then from the evidence we have, it was only used on funeral stones and border markers.

It was used as a phonetic language from 400 AD on, however, it was an ideographic language before then as evidenced by it's references in our myths and it's recording in the book of ballymote.

Rajani Kali

It will if I wish to do field work in primarily Gaelic speaking areas of Ireland, or work with traditional folklore that only exists in Gaelic, or learn to sing correctly in Gaelic.

Define "field work"?  

[Ainwyn]

CuAnnan

Rajani Kali

It will if I wish to do field work in primarily Gaelic speaking areas of Ireland, or work with traditional folklore that only exists in Gaelic, or learn to sing correctly in Gaelic.

Define "field work"?

I suppose I would change all the "Gaelic" into "Irish" then? smile

Field work for ethnomusicology is much the same as it would be for anthropology. I would spend a lot of time before I go on doing research on the area; become familiar with its customs and language before I go. I'd end up spending probably at least three years living in the area I wish to study. I would interact with the locals, study their music and what role it plays in their society, learn local instruments and songs, make recordings, and probably a lot of other things that I haven't become aware of yet. In the case of Ireland, I realize that the areas where they speak Irish, I probably wouldn't need to know Irish just to comunicate because, to my knowledge, it's largely a biligual society (?) But, as with any language, there are a lot of things that are lost in translation into English and many ideas that don't translate at all.

And even if I ended up never doing field work in an Irish speaking area (I have many interests in music other than Irish, so who knows what will happen), I have a great interest in singing Irish music. I already know some, from growing up with them and figuring out the pronunciation as best I can just through repetitive listening, but I'm not sure how accurate I am. When I was a vocal performance major, we were expected to take a semester each of Italian, French and German, then another semester in one of them and dictation classes. I don't see how singing in Irish should take any less work.  

[CuAnnan]

Rajani Kali

I suppose I would change all the "Gaelic" into "Irish" then? smile

No need.
But we do tend to get a little bit irritable when people call our language Gaelic.
What languages do you speak, by the way?

Rajani Kali

In the case of Ireland, I realize that the areas where they speak Irish, I probably wouldn't need to know Irish just to comunicate because, to my knowledge, it's largely a biligual society

The Gaelgeori do speak English, albeit a lot of them aren't fluent.
However, they tolerate it.
The fact that you're a Gall learning Irish to interact with them will earn you an immense amount of respect from them, especially from a Gall.

Rajani Kali

But, as with any language, there are a lot of things that are lost in translation into English and many ideas that don't translate at all.

Absolutely.

Rajani Kali

When I was a vocal performance major, we were expected to take a semester each of Italian, French and German, then another semester in one of them and dictation classes. I don't see how singing in Irish should take any less work.

More, I'd wager.
Irish has more Phonems than those three and hearing them can be hard.
Constonants
b c d f g l m n r s t
Half constonants
bh bfh ch dh fh gh sh th
Vowels
a á ai ao
e é ea ei eo
i í ia io
o ó oa oi
u ú ua ui

And those are just the ones that are easy to demonstrate. Vowels can change depending on what constonants are around them, etc.

There's a common word that I get Americans to repeat so that I can hear what they hear, "geas" which is one of the special cases of 'ea'.
The most amusing case was a friend who was insistent I was saying "gay a**"  

[TeaDidikai]

CuAnnan

The most amusing case was a friend who was insistent I was saying "gay a**"

How much of that was projection?  

[Ainwyn]

CuAnnan

What languages do you speak, by the way?

Because my mom grew up knowing several languages, I grew up knowing bits and pieces of several languages. I studied Russian, Japanese and Spanish when I was younger, but I couldn't continue Russian after I was 11 because the teacher left and I didn't really have much interest in Japanese. I'd gotten to a basic level of fluency with Spanish, but I haven't spoken it much in the last four years. I've also been tutored in Korea and a semester of Italian, but my knowledge is very limited in both. And I've done a lot of dictation work with both German and Hebrew.  

[Ainwyn]

Finally, CuAnnan's challenge met! biggrin
Your culture:
What makes one a Celt? On a basic level Celt is someone from one of the six “Celtic nations” that are tied together by a common linguistic background (Goidelic or Brythonic), or someone with ancestors from those areas; more importantly, one either speaks one of these languages or has an interest in speaking them. That being said, one can’t just claim one has Celtic blood to consider oneself a Celt; as being Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc. is a cultural identity (especially for someone who does not live in one of those countries), one must be active in one’s cultural customs. Religion, folklore, music and art play as much of a role as language in making up the Celtic cultures.
What makes you a Celt? I have Celtic ancestors (Scots-Irish and Welsh; Maxwell and Bougham respectively), but again, it’s not the blood that matters (it’s what you do with it that counts!). I am greatly interested in learning Irish, I just haven’t had the opportunity to yet (I would have learned Scots-Gaelic if I wasn’t forced to move states five years ago). I’ve been listening to Irish and Celtic music all my life, and still consider it to be my favorite music, and one I now wish to study. Most of my life I’ve yearned to live in Ireland or Scotland; I visited Scotland for two weeks with my family when I was 18 and never wanted to leave. I’ve yet to go to Ireland, but if my parents’ reaction to being there means anything (and I believe it does), I will feel very at home there. My family also has a great deal of respect for our ancestors. My grandfather actively keeps track of our genealogy, and has been passing it down to my sister and me, through story telling, all our lives. And we also went to a Highland festival fairly regularly when I was younger (my mom is slightly obsessed with coos rolleyes ), and I go the the local Irish music festival every year with my friends.
How do the cultural laws of the Celts apply to you? I don't believe that a person should base their morals on how they think it will effect them in the after life, but how it will effect their current situation and their relationships with others; ie, I will tell you the truth because then you will find me trustworthy, not because it will get me into heaven (not sure if that's part of any Celtic cultural law, but I feel very strongly about it, so I put it down).
I don't back out on promises, I tend to put the needs of others ahead of my own and am very loyal to those people, I hold firm to my beliefs (unless very solid evidence proves me wrong, but I haven't seen that happen very often), and I always try to actively improve my understanding and knowledge of the world. Family is also very important to me, not just in the traditional sense, but I have a very large family of friends that we've created over the last couple of years. We tend to take in anyone who needs a home, both figuratively and literally. Hospitality is a very important concept to us; we provide a home or food for anyone else in the group who needs it because we know they will do the same when we're in a similar situation.
I'm still very unfamiliar with the Irish idea of justice, but I'm reading as much as I can about Brehon law right now.

The three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge, forgetfulness.  

[Ainwyn]

Part II:
Your sources:
What are they?
Clannada na Gadelica
IMBAS
CELT (Corpus of Electronic Texts)
Carmina Gadelica
Brendan Cathbad Myers
Land, Sea and Sky
Gaol Naofa
The CR FAQ
The Summer Lands
How credible are they? Imbas is said to be one of the best places on the web for Celtic Recon articles and essays, I found this site years ago, but it's also been a while since I've gone through a lot of it.
Clannada na Gadelica seems to be well researched, and though the creator of the site has converted to Christianity, I've heard from someone who's worked with him (the creator of The Summer Lands) that his website is still a wonderful resource.
The other sites I've gotten from CR members on the MysticWicks forums, whom I place a lot of trust in.
What scholastic research have you done?
I have a few decent books on the Celts and Celtic religions, but the only ones I can remember off the top of my head are The Apple Branch by Alexei Kondratiev (it's been ages since I've read this, I'll have to pick it up again when I get home) and a translation of The Mabinogion, though I can't remember who translated it. I haven't read The Tain or any major Irish mythology yet, as I was mainly interested in Welsh traditions when I was younger.
I was also a member of various CR or Druid yahoo groups growing up, and I'll remember bits and pieces I picked up from them from time to time, but I couldn't tell you what groups they were.

I think one of my biggest problems right now is that I have so many sources of information, but I don't know where to start. So if you could point me in the right direction, that would be very helpful!