"The Old Testament Doesn't Count!"

[Silver Wingling]

It's not about "Society at that time", it's just that capital punishment is no longer nessicary.

Listen to this - all those laws that demanded death - if the sinner took refuge in Jerusalem, he could not be killed if the high priest said he couldn't. Then, if the high priest died, the sin was redeamed. Since Yeshua, our ultimate High Priest died for us, we no longer have to die. As for your other 2 arguments - read my post. I already countered those ones.  

[Silver Wingling]

Just one thing I've noticed - a lot of my Christian friends say there is no need to keep Torah, but, upon questioning, they know very little about it, or it's application today. A good deal of what they do "Know" is missconception, e.i. - "The Laws of Kashrot were given for health reasons."  

[Priestley]

Talmar_Star_Blood

Just one thing I've noticed - a lot of my Christian friends say there is no need to keep Torah, but, upon questioning, they know very little about it, or it's application today. A good deal of what they do "Know" is missconception, e.i. - "The Laws of Kashrot were given for health reasons."

Were they not given for health reasons?  

[Silver Wingling]

Priestley

Talmar_Star_Blood

Just one thing I've noticed - a lot of my Christian friends say there is no need to keep Torah, but, upon questioning, they know very little about it, or it's application today. A good deal of what they do "Know" is missconception, e.i. - "The Laws of Kashrot were given for health reasons."

Were they not given for health reasons?

No. They were given to make Israel holy - it says (Leviticus 11:45) "I am YHVH your G-d, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your G-d; therefore be holy, as I am holy." The word used "Kadosh," means set apart. No other reason is given for keeping these laws. The reason the Rabbi's thought the laws were given was to be a compromise between eating meat and not eating it, because the laws for raising and killing Kosher anamils are more humane than other common methods. Christian Scholars assumed that the reason was health, basing this assumption on the word 'unclean.' For more detailed information on the 'why' of Kashrot, watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6nrjC4r1zM  

[Priestley]

Lethkhar

It has come to my attention that many Christians feel that the Old Testament's laws are outdated and have been swept aside by their saviour Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the Law. It is done.

Lekthar

I personally believe the Old Testament holds just as much wieght as the New Testament.

Not much weight, then?

Lekthar

For simplicity, I have a compiled a list of scripture to prove this point.

First of all. let it be known what exactly Jesus is referring to when He refers to "the law":
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).


So yes, Jesus is referring to the Old Testament.

1. “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

2. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

1. This states the commandments to be the standards by which positions in heaven will assigned. Note no mention here of punishment in hell for breaking a commandment.

2. This describes the permanence and endurance of God's Law until the establishment of new earth and new heavens.

3. Again, Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets as they said he would, but not all things have taken place yet.

Lekthar

3b. "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

3b. Indeed it is, because it is good.

3c. This is why we must be patient and ask the Spirit to reveal to us the meanings of prophecies. The meaning is specific and is not obtained by lengthy debate. All believers have some revelation and share them, but none have all revelation except the Spirit which reveals it to men.

Lekthar

4. "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5. “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Note: #4 and #5 are accounts of Jesus defending himself for not washing his hands by telling the Pharisees that they should kill their children like the Old Testament tells them to.

4. The Pharisees judged and challenged him for not washing his hands before he ate, which is a minor commandment regarding sanitation. Jesus pointed out that they were unfit to judge him by having cursed their father/mother, which is a major commandment listed in the ten.

5. He was not telling the Pharisees to kill their children. Rather, he was saying that the Pharisees themselves should die for cursing their fathers/mothers.

Lekthar

6. “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

6. Jesus reiterates that scripture will be fullfilled.  

[Silver Wingling]

Well, you won't be punished for breaking the Law, but it's still good to keep. And Yeshua fufiled it, yes, but that doesn't mean it's not Law anymore. And the Law never saved you anyway, read in Galations - Avraham was justified by faith, not works.  

[Priestley]

Talmar_Star_Blood

Well, you won't be punished for breaking the Law, but it's still good to keep. And Yeshua fufiled it, yes, but that doesn't mean it's not Law anymore. And the Law never saved you anyway, read in Galations - Avraham was justified by faith, not works.

Talmar, it's a credit to you that you choose to try to keep to the law and, as surely as Jesus promised, you shall be rewarded for it when you get to heaven.

I didn't say it wasn't Law any more. Nor did I say the Law saved people. Jesus saves people.

Amen to Abraham being justified by faith!  

[GuardianAngel44]

wahmbulance SPAM ALERT!!!!!!! wahmbulance


PANIC! AT THE MUFFINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA (don't ban me for this. just delete the post and I'll get the message)  

[Silver Wingling]

Priestley

Talmar_Star_Blood

Well, you won't be punished for breaking the Law, but it's still good to keep. And Yeshua fufiled it, yes, but that doesn't mean it's not Law anymore. And the Law never saved you anyway, read in Galations - Avraham was justified by faith, not works.

Talmar, it's a credit to you that you choose to try to keep to the law and, as surely as Jesus promised, you shall be rewarded for it when you get to heaven.

I didn't say it wasn't Law any more. Nor did I say the Law saved people. Jesus saves people.

Amen to Abraham being justified by faith!

Well, a weekend with little sleep, and I can't tell what you're saying. *Yawn*  

[genioos]

The OT still applies IMO. Back in the OT, when you broke God's rules, you atoned with offerings of sacrifice. Jesus came to be the ultimate sacrifice, so that we no longer have to stick to the old tradition of making those sacrifices to God when we mess up. That doesn't mean those rules don't apply anymore, it just means that when we accept Christ as the perfect sacrificial lamb for us, then we can come to God through Jesus.

From what I understand, the way in which you uphold the laws of the OT grant you different levels in heaven. For example, I don't know if you've heard of Jeffrey Dahmer (he was only like a disturbing cannibalistic serial killer)~ he repented in prison. He accepted Christ before he died, but his actions on earth were abhorrable. So... in layman's terms, he might be cleaning toilets in heaven XD Not literally, but I hope you understand what I mean.

Song of Solomon was mentioned earlier~ I just wanted to add how beautiful that book is. It just brings to light the beauty of loving, passionate relationships. I think this book just amplifies the importance of the "thou shalt not commit adultery" commandment. Just my two cents-- not arguing with anyone.

As far as the Pharisees killing their children, well-- I still didn't see proof in the scripture you provided. Yeah, disobeying your father and mother are considered sins, but let's say your parents ask you to kill someone... should you obey one law to forsake another? The paradigm of the "lesser of two evils".

Also, God said Sodom and Gomorrah were beyond salvation because their hearts were hardened to Him. He told Lot that He would save the cities if Lot could find for Him just ONE righteous individual-- Lot could not, so God destroyed the cities. So, in a sense, Lethkhar, you can blame Lot for the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah.

I do have a question for you, though Lethkhar~ do you study ALL religions, or just Christianity? and, whatever answer you give me, can I ask why? I have my opinions, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.  

[Silver Wingling]

Quote:

As far as the Pharisees killing their children, well-- I still didn't see proof in the scripture you provided. Yeah, disobeying your father and mother are considered sins, but let's say your parents ask you to kill someone... should you obey one law to forsake another? The paradigm of the "lesser of two evils".

If your parents tell you to do something wrong, then that's a sin on their part. I don't think G-d counts 'dissobedience' in this instance as a sin at all, because he, a higher authority than a parent, says otherwise. If that makes sense.  

[Lethkhar]

Priestley

Lethkhar

It has come to my attention that many Christians feel that the Old Testament's laws are outdated and have been swept aside by their saviour Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the Law. It is done.

Lekthar

I personally believe the Old Testament holds just as much wieght as the New Testament.

Not much weight, then?

xd

Actually, I will admit that Jesus is one of my favorite prophets...

Quote:

Lekthar

For simplicity, I have a compiled a list of scripture to prove this point.

First of all. let it be known what exactly Jesus is referring to when He refers to "the law":
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).


So yes, Jesus is referring to the Old Testament.

1. “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

2. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

1. This states the commandments to be the standards by which positions in heaven will assigned. Note no mention here of punishment in hell for breaking a commandment.

2. This describes the permanence and endurance of God's Law until the establishment of new earth and new heavens.

3. Again, Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets as they said he would, but not all things have taken place yet.

1. No, but it is quite clear that the law should be followed.
2. Precisely.
3. Precisely.

Quote:

Lekthar

3b. "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

3b. Indeed it is, because it is good.

3c. This is why we must be patient and ask the Spirit to reveal to us the meanings of prophecies. The meaning is specific and is not obtained by lengthy debate. All believers have some revelation and share them, but none have all revelation except the Spirit which reveals it to men.

Lekthar

4. "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5. “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Note: #4 and #5 are accounts of Jesus defending himself for not washing his hands by telling the Pharisees that they should kill their children like the Old Testament tells them to.

4. The Pharisees judged and challenged him for not washing his hands before he ate, which is a minor commandment regarding sanitation. Jesus pointed out that they were unfit to judge him by having cursed their father/mother, which is a major commandment listed in the ten.

5. He was not telling the Pharisees to kill their children. Rather, he was saying that the Pharisees themselves should die for cursing their fathers/mothers.

When did the Pharisees curse their mothers and fathers? confused

Quote:

Lekthar

6. “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

6. Jesus reiterates that scripture will be fullfilled.

Yup.  

[Lethkhar]

genioos

The OT still applies IMO. Back in the OT, when you broke God's rules, you atoned with offerings of sacrifice. Jesus came to be the ultimate sacrifice, so that we no longer have to stick to the old tradition of making those sacrifices to God when we mess up. That doesn't mean those rules don't apply anymore, it just means that when we accept Christ as the perfect sacrificial lamb for us, then we can come to God through Jesus.

From what I understand, the way in which you uphold the laws of the OT grant you different levels in heaven. For example, I don't know if you've heard of Jeffrey Dahmer (he was only like a disturbing cannibalistic serial killer)~ he repented in prison. He accepted Christ before he died, but his actions on earth were abhorrable. So... in layman's terms, he might be cleaning toilets in heaven XD Not literally, but I hope you understand what I mean.

Song of Solomon was mentioned earlier~ I just wanted to add how beautiful that book is. It just brings to light the beauty of loving, passionate relationships. I think this book just amplifies the importance of the "thou shalt not commit adultery" commandment. Just my two cents-- not arguing with anyone.

As far as the Pharisees killing their children, well-- I still didn't see proof in the scripture you provided. Yeah, disobeying your father and mother are considered sins, but let's say your parents ask you to kill someone... should you obey one law to forsake another? The paradigm of the "lesser of two evils".

Mm...You might call it a Biblical contradiction.

Quote:

Also, God said Sodom and Gomorrah were beyond salvation because their hearts were hardened to Him. He told Lot that He would save the cities if Lot could find for Him just ONE righteous individual-- Lot could not, so God destroyed the cities. So, in a sense, Lethkhar, you can blame Lot for the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah.

Lot isn't the one who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, God is. Lot couldn't find a righteous individual...So what? God's the one who challenged him to do so in the first place. God's the one who wanted to destroy Sodom and Gemorrah, not Lot.

Though I do believe Lot to be a rather twisted man for other reasons regarding his daughters...

Quote:

I do have a question for you, though Lethkhar~ do you study ALL religions, or just Christianity? and, whatever answer you give me, can I ask why? I have my opinions, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

I study what religions I can given my schedule. I'm a very busy person, which is why you might notice that my posts here are rather brief. I should probably be doing my math homework right now. sweatdrop

So no, not just Christianity.

Why? Because I find them fascinating. I even include bits and pieces of some into my own philosophy. By no means do I claim to be an expert on any of them, but I really do consider religion to be important and is obviously a huge influence on society. Therefore, I believe that I should study up on them as much as possible, if just to gain more knowledge of this world that I have chanced to be in.

My education has only just begun, though. Why do you think I'm in this guild?  

[genioos]

You are a series of contradictions.  

[Lethkhar]

genioos

You are a series of contradictions.

See, that's your problem. You can't actually debate with anyone without taking it personally. You attack the person instead of the argument. I mean, how did you expect me to respond to this? Did you expect me to say something like:

"You're mom's a series of contradictions! razz "?

Because that's the level of "debate" we're at right now.