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 Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:40 pm
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MoonJeli deadmanjake I contest this. Before Harry Potter came out and became popular, the book stores that I frequent, Including Borders did not have the Lion, the Witch, and The Wardrobe in plain site. At the local Walden Books, I kind of doubt that they had it at all. Heck, they did not even carry any Conan books (assholes). After the first Harry Potter movie, all of a sudden Lemony Snickets, and C.S. Lewis were in plain view. Right next to the Harry Potter books, so they were kind of hard to miss. Now, I may live in Ohio, but before Harry Potter, the "children's fantasy" books sections did not really exist. All you really had to choose was the Dungeons and Dragons books or the like. Hell, The Wheel Of Time books were always out front, but nope, nothing for younger people. Unless you want to count Sesame Street or Romance Novels for teenagers. Maybe Nancy Drew or the Hardy Boys if you were lucky. Where were these groups or animated movies? I am sure I would have seen a cartoon entitled The Lion, the Witch, and The Wardrobe if it had surely come out to widespread United States Audiences. But Magpie mentioned the BBC so things are different across the water. Odd, it wasn't like that at all here. I mean, it comes and goes in cycles, but in my childhood (I'm 26) there were several fantasy series that were ALL the rage, including A Wrinkle in Time, Narnia and Earthsea. Maybe it's just a cycle and they'd phased out for a while? I just asked my fiance (who is 30) and he had read all those series too; I remember buying the Earthsea books in a book swap at my elementary school. A popular NEW fantasy series when I was a kid was the Redwall books. "Everyone" I knew read those. And then of course, classics like Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. I don't know how old you are. I am wondering if maybe I was just a kid during a peak in their popularity. I do know that fantasy series hit a peak in popularity in the 60s with hippie culture; perhaps us children of the 80s read them a lot because our parents had been raised on them. I'm just speculating.
Bookstores push what they think is likely to sell. Cheaper by the Dozen was another great book I read when I was a kid, and when the recent movie came out, the book was recovered with movie photos, even though the only similarity with the book to the movie was the fact that Steve Martin had 12 kids in the movie. Everything else was just total crap. Same with How to Eat Fried Worms. A whole generation of kids is going to grow up on these crappy movies instead of the books, and when they do go and read the books they will probably reject them because they're not the same as the movie.
All these great books have been popular for ages--maybe you just weren't a kid in the right place, Jake?
I think I tried to watch Prince Caspian and/or The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe a couple years ago but couldn't get through them. I was so excited there were TV versions, but they didn't match up to how I had imagined things in my head so I couldn't really get into them.
I've seen The Magician's Nephew on stage, too--that was pretty cool. |
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:40 pm
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MoonJeli TeaDidikai MoonJeli However, many believe that Tolkien also wrote the LotR in rebellion against Wagner's mythology, attempting to save the Nordic myths from improper use. Quote: Tolkien was an avowed proponent of preserving the integrity of mythologies. Can you cite this for me? In some of his letters I could have sworn Tolkin claimed he was attempting to make "Modern Mythology". Granted, it has been well over a decade since I read the texts in question- but I would really like something to support your assertion considering how badly Tolkin himself bastardized Norse Mythos. I'm sorry, I'm not explaining this clearly. My assertion is that Tolkien didn't like Wagner's use of Norse Mythology. Is that being debated? Whether Tolkien was justified in it, I make no claims. I was asked if I had a source for my claim of that and I gave Humphry Carpenter's quotations, and Tolkien's. Tolkien indeed attempted to create a new mythology, and made that claim, and if you've read The Silmarillion, he worked pretty hard on it. He was indeed influenced by many sources, including Nordic mythology, and Wagner himself (even though he claimed otherwise). Tolkien's OWN opinion was that he did it better than Wagner. wink deadmanjake I was kind of wondering that myself. Althou I have never managed to read but maybe a chapter of any of the books, and it has been a while since I have read any Norse Mythology, I could not really see any similarities in the movies. He never claimed to be writing a story parallelling Norse mythology, so I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you clear this up for me? The influences of Norse and Scandinavian and other mythologies are found throughout -- basically starting with elves, dwarves and the like. Tolkien claimed to be uncomfortable with mixing, say, Nordic mythology such as Dwarves with obviously disparate mythology such as Centaurs or whatnot, which is what he objected to in Lewis's stories. I think quotes on that can be found in some of his "letters" books but I haven't read them in several years. Out of curiousity, has anyone here seen the Ring Cycle? I've only seen portions live, though I have season subscriptions to the symphony and opera, Portland Opera doesn't do the whole Ring... it goes through Seattle every few years, though, and I know some of you are NWerners. deadmanjake MoonJeli deadmanjake Also, a fiction book for Christians has become popular. The lion, the witch, and the wardrobe. With which, if it was not for the popularity of the Harry Potter books, I feel, that it may not have become as highly demanded as it is. popular? The Chronicles of Narnia have been popular for a very long time. There is quite a culture behind them, too, from both the fantasy and Christianity views. There are books analyzing the Christian content, fan groups, etc. and countless animated versions, radio plays and so on. They finally made a live action version Lewis may have been able to approve of (he was vehemently against it during his lifetime, because he thought it would butcher the depiction of Aslan, but we have CGI and so on that he never could've imagined). I contest this. Before Harry Potter came out and became popular, the book stores that I frequent, Including Borders did not have the Lion, the Witch, and The Wardrobe in plain site. At the local Walden Books, I kind of doubt that they had it at all. Heck, they did not even carry any Conan books (assholes). After the first Harry Potter movie, all of a sudden Lemony Snickets, and C.S. Lewis were in plain view. Right next to the Harry Potter books, so they were kind of hard to miss. Now, I may live in Ohio, but before Harry Potter, the "children's fantasy" books sections did not really exist. All you really had to choose was the Dungeons and Dragons books or the like. Hell, The Wheel Of Time books were always out front, but nope, nothing for younger people. Unless you want to count Sesame Street or Romance Novels for teenagers. Maybe Nancy Drew or the Hardy Boys if you were lucky. Where were these groups or animated movies? I am sure I would have seen a cartoon entitled The Lion, the Witch, and The Wardrobe if it had surely come out to widespread United States Audiences. But Magpie mentioned the BBC so things are different across the water. Odd, it wasn't like that at all here. I mean, it comes and goes in cycles, but in my childhood (I'm 26) there were several fantasy series that were ALL the rage, including A Wrinkle in Time, Narnia and Earthsea. Maybe it's just a cycle and they'd phased out for a while? I just asked my fiance (who is 30) and he had read all those series too; I remember buying the Earthsea books in a book swap at my elementary school. A popular NEW fantasy series when I was a kid was the Redwall books. "Everyone" I knew read those. And then of course, classics like Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. I don't know how old you are. I am wondering if maybe I was just a kid during a peak in their popularity. I do know that fantasy series hit a peak in popularity in the 60s with hippie culture; perhaps us children of the 80s read them a lot because our parents had been raised on them. I'm just speculating. Here are some of the movies.... 1967: http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0224907/1979: http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0079474/1988: http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0094500/http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0096681/http://amazon.imdb.com/title/tt0098912/I saw the '88 one a dozen times (along with movies like Labyrinth and Dark Crystal and Legend), and I saw the '79 one several times (but thought it was stupid). I've never seen the '67 one -- before my time I guess! Admittedly I haven't seen these on TV in several years, but in the 80s, by George, they were on all the time! I don't know. I mean, there's a farm around here called Narnia Farms (or Narnia Stables or something, I forget), and Aslan was always listed as a name for a cat in my pet name books, stuff like that. I guess it's just a different culture.
Actually, I am 30 as well, but never heard of Narnia until after Harry Potter came out.
I grew up reading Sherlock Holmes, Conan, Tarzan, and others. |
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:47 pm
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deadmanjake Actually, I am 30 as well, but never heard of Narnia until after Harry Potter came out. I grew up reading Sherlock Holmes, Conan, Tarzan, and others.
I wonder if this is just a different sort of culture. I grew up in a really liberal area, and a lot of my teachers taught scifi and fantasy too (like "Bridge to Terabithia" was required gradeschool reading, and that has Narnia references -- the name of the land is taken from Narnia -- in it). I really don't know.
To me it's shocking that someone WOULDN'T know Narnia, so who knows! It's certainly considered classic kid's literature, and that's where I always found it at the book stores rather than a seperate fantasy section. I, on the other hand, never read any Tarzan or Conan, and can't remember ever seeing the books around or seeing any kids' versions prior to Disney's, etc. Obviously they WERE around. xd
TheDisreputableDog I loved all of those when I was a kid, and I'm 19. I reread them all periodically. I've missed the last six or seven Redwall books though, unfortunately. I know Redwall was absurdly popular at my middle/elementary school. However, while Lewis, L'Engel, and LeGuin were less prevalent, they were still favorites and have been for a long time. I've read them many times with many different covers over the years. Bookstores push what they think is likely to sell. Cheaper by the Dozen was another great book I read when I was a kid, and when the recent movie came out, the book was recovered with movie photos, even though the only similarity with the book to the movie was the fact that Steve Martin had 12 kids in the movie. Everything else was just total crap. Same with How to Eat Fried Worms. A whole generation of kids is going to grow up on these crappy movies instead of the books, and when they do go and read the books they will probably reject them because they're not the same as the movie. All these great books have been popular for ages--maybe you just weren't a kid in the right place, Jake?
This is much more like my experience. Oh, I loved How to Eat Fried Worms. Ha! Never read Cheaper... though, didn't even know it was a book.
Fantasy books were my primary read as a kid. In fact, come to think of it, they're about all I read except classic literature and non-fiction. I did branch off into scifi in my adolescence, probably early teens, with Dune, Ender's Game and the like -- getting into adult literature. Is there much kid's scifi? I remember a couple books but not many. Fantasy, though, there were so many!
I read the first handful of Redwall books religiously like most of the kids who were up to that level of reading in my elementary school classes, but I haven't read the last six or seven, either. There are just so many!
Quote: I think I tried to watch Prince Caspian and/or The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe a couple years ago but couldn't get through them. I was so excited there were TV versions, but they didn't match up to how I had imagined things in my head so I couldn't really get into them. I've seen The Magician's Nephew on stage, too--that was pretty cool.
Movies almost never live up to the books, but they certainly do make the books more popular for a while. Heh. |
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:57 pm
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TheDisreputableDog missmagpie I never even knew about the Christian undertones until the newer movie came out. It tainted the whole series that I loved as a child for its pure fantasy. Guess it wasn't that fantastic after all. Seriously? I think I missed it in the movie. I was probably paying too much attention to the deviations from the book to notice. I don't think I really saw much until the end of Dawn Treader with the whole lamb thing-- totally missed everything in The Magician's Nephew. And for some reason I just accepted the whole "daughter of Eve, son of Adam" thing at face value as part of the fantasy realm. xp
The 'Son of Adam' 'Daughter of Eve' thing caught my attention, but what REALLY caught me was book three, The Horse and His Boy. If the Calormene empire isn't at least somewhat modled after the middle east, then I'm totaly lost xd . The Christain north verse the Islamic/Polythestic southern empire. |
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:24 pm
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MoonJeli I grew up in a really liberal area, and a lot of my teachers taught scifi and fantasy too (like "Bridge to Terabithia" was required gradeschool reading, and that has Narnia references -- the name of the land is taken from Narnia -- in it).
MoonJeli ]To me it's shocking that someone WOULDN'T know Narnia, so who knows! It's certainly considered classic kid's literature, and that's where I always found it at the book stores rather than a seperate fantasy section. I, on the other hand, never read any Tarzan or Conan, and can't remember ever seeing the books around or seeing any kids' versions prior to Disney's, etc. Obviously they WERE around. xd
MoonJeli This is much more like my experience. Oh, I loved How to Eat Fried Worms. Ha! Never read Cheaper... though, didn't even know it was a book.
MoonJeli Fantasy books were my primary read as a kid. In fact, come to think of it, they're about all I read except classic literature and non-fiction. I did branch off into scifi in my adolescence, probably early teens, with Dune, Ender's Game and the like -- getting into adult literature. Is there much kid's scifi? I remember a couple books but not many. Fantasy, though, there were so many! |
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:44 am
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MoonJeli Out of curiousity, has anyone here seen the Ring Cycle? I've only seen portions live, though I have season subscriptions to the symphony and opera, Portland Opera doesn't do the whole Ring... it goes through Seattle every few years, though, and I know some of you are NWerners.
I'm a rather self-professed Wagnerite. I've listened to the Ring the whole way through and saw Siegfried in the London Opera House. In fact, I watched Das Rheingold just last weekend on DVD. Getting live performances is kinda tough unless you go to London. I live in Dublin, you see. We don't have an opera company. In fact, we don't even have an opera house. wink
DMJ: The BBC version I was referring to was the '88 version MoonJeli kindly provided links to. There was The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, Prince Caspian, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader and Silverchair. The first three were staples of my childhood - Silverchair kinda dragged on a bit. I also grew up with my dad reading the Chronicles of Narnia to us. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:31 am
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MoonJeli missmagpie MoonJeli They finally made a live action version Lewis may have been able to approve of (he was vehemently against it during his lifetime, because he thought it would butcher the depiction of Aslan, but we have CGI and so on that he never could've imagined). So what did you think of the early BBC versions that came out in the 80s? Are you stipulating that he wouldn't have liked the earlier series that came out? I felt the BBC version was far closer to the depiction of the book than the recent film version. I have no idea if he would've liked the BBC version, he was just adamant that he did NOT want Aslan to be a "puppet" or suit which he was in the BBC version. Whether he would have been okay with the advances in puppetry and animatronics made by the 80s can only be speculated; but he goes on record as fine with animated Aslan depictions, and Aslan is animated in the most recent version. So in terms of what he outright SAID was okay, this is the only live action version that conforms to his requests. Unfortunately we can't get his feedback. Quote: Quote: He didn't like Wagner much either, because of the "butchering" he did to Norse mythology with the Ring Cycle. Do you have a source for this? I would have thought Tolkein didn't much mind Wagner's interpretation as he later based the Lord of the Rings on it. As far as I know there is no reference to an all-powerful ring in Norse mythology. Wagner just borrowed the gods and structure - the story he created was mostly his own. Yes, there are many sources. I'd suggest Carpenter's biographies of him to start with. Tolkien refused to admit that LotR had anything to do with Wagner. He said, "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceased," in response to a comparison ("The Ring is in a certain way 'der Niebelungen Ring'") by the translator of the 1961 Swedish translation of the LotR. He was incensed by this comparison and immediately wrote the publisher. Obviously, it's hard to believe that he wasn't influenced. I personally believe he was. However, many believe that Tolkien also wrote the LotR in rebellion against Wagner's mythology, attempting to save the Nordic myths from improper use. LotR also had influence of the world wars, and Tolkien also lamented the corruption of the "noble Northern spirit" by the Nazis. The comparison between Tolkien and Wagner is common, if not now gospel, and Tolkien hated it. Family friend and official biographer Humphrey Carpenter said Tolkien "held in contempt" Wagner's interpretations of the Norse and Germanic sagas. Tolkien was an avowed proponent of preserving the integrity of mythologies. He disagreed with Lewis' mixture of sources (i.e. gryphons hobnobbing with fauns and unicorns and centaurs mixing with dwarves). He was well-acquainted with Wagner and wrote a study on "Die Walküre" prior to writing his novels. Tolkien and Lewis studied Wagner together in their Kolbitar ("Coal Biters" -- a rude term for men who prefered the warmth of the fire to joining in on the hunt or fight) Club. Tolkien hoped to get some Oxford dons interested in Norse mythology; the club read Norse myths in the original Icelandic. In the second incarnation of the club, The Inklings, they did translations of Wagner from the original German, and then would agree or disagree with parts in an academic fashion. So though he thought poorly of Wagner's use of the Nordic mythologies, it obviously had a great deal of influence on him. Yes, I'm a geek. xd
One I'm greatful to for so much interesting info!
Even if it is off the topic, wink smile |
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:16 am
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:35 am
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missmagpie MoonJeli Out of curiousity, has anyone here seen the Ring Cycle? I've only seen portions live, though I have season subscriptions to the symphony and opera, Portland Opera doesn't do the whole Ring... it goes through Seattle every few years, though, and I know some of you are NWerners. Yes. But what's a NWerner?
Northwesterners, as in living in the Pacific Northwest of the US and therefore having access to the Seattle Opera. I'm in Oregon, and some day I hope to get up to Seattle for a week to see the whole Cycle. biggrin
Quote: I'm a rather self-professed Wagnerite. I've listened to the Ring the whole way through and saw Siegfried in the London Opera House. In fact, I watched Das Rheingold just last weekend on DVD. Getting live performances is kinda tough unless you go to London. I live in Dublin, you see. We don't have an opera company. In fact, we don't even have an opera house. wink
I saw Götterdämmerung earlier this month (the 12th I think), it was... so intense. I've listened to the entire opera on CD but never seen the whole opera live and oh! How I want to. I go to every opera the Portland Opera does, and they're doing The Flying Dutchman later this year. Woohoo! We're a small city as far as cities go, and we're lucky enough to have an all classical station, a great symphony and a great opera company. I'm a classical music geek. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:37 am
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MoonJeli missmagpie MoonJeli Out of curiousity, has anyone here seen the Ring Cycle? I've only seen portions live, though I have season subscriptions to the symphony and opera, Portland Opera doesn't do the whole Ring... it goes through Seattle every few years, though, and I know some of you are NWerners. Yes. But what's a NWerner? Northwesterners, as in living in the Pacific Northwest of the US and therefore having access to the Seattle Opera. I'm in Oregon, and some day I hope to get up to Seattle for a week to see the whole Cycle. biggrin Quote: I'm a rather self-professed Wagnerite. I've listened to the Ring the whole way through and saw Siegfried in the London Opera House. In fact, I watched Das Rheingold just last weekend on DVD. Getting live performances is kinda tough unless you go to London. I live in Dublin, you see. We don't have an opera company. In fact, we don't even have an opera house. wink I saw Götterdämmerung earlier this month (the 12th I think), it was... so intense. I've listened to the entire opera on CD but never seen the whole opera live and oh! How I want to. I go to every opera the Portland Opera does, and they're doing The Flying Dutchman later this year. Woohoo! We're a small city as far as cities go, and we're lucky enough to have an all classical station, a great symphony and a great opera company. I'm a classical music geek.
Oh, I'm jealous! I would jump at a chance to see The Flying Dutchman or anything of Wagner's. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:04 pm
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:04 pm
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MoonJeli However, many believe that Tolkien also wrote the LotR in rebellion against Wagner's mythology, attempting to save the Nordic myths from improper use. Quote: Tolkien was an avowed proponent of preserving the integrity of mythologies.
MoonJeli I'm sorry, I'm not explaining this clearly. My assertion is that Tolkien didn't like Wagner's use of Norse Mythology. Is that being debated?
The first being that Tolkien disliked people slaughtering other people's mythologies and the second being that LotR was backlash penned by Tolkien against Wagner's butchering of Norse myths.
Those two assertions are what I want you to support.
Quote: Tolkien claimed to be uncomfortable with mixing, say, Nordic mythology such as Dwarves with obviously disparate mythology such as Centaurs or whatnot, which is what he objected to in Lewis's stories. |
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:52 am
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TeaDidikai MoonJeli However, many believe that Tolkien also wrote the LotR in rebellion against Wagner's mythology, attempting to save the Nordic myths from improper use. Quote: Tolkien was an avowed proponent of preserving the integrity of mythologies. MoonJeli I'm sorry, I'm not explaining this clearly. My assertion is that Tolkien didn't like Wagner's use of Norse Mythology. Is that being debated? And above I am citing two other claims you made that do not fit with your assertions. The first being that Tolkien disliked people slaughtering other people's mythologies and the second being that LotR was backlash penned by Tolkien against Wagner's butchering of Norse myths. Those two assertions are what I want you to support.
I can support that people have claimed Tolkien did that. I personally can't support whether it's *true* or not, just that people believe it, as I stated. There was an article in The New Yorker stating such a few years ago (2002? maybe); it was about Tolkien's thievery of Wagner's Ring.
I can't find that one (still looking) but in searching, I found an article in Asia Times by Spengler, Jan 11, 2003, "Tolkien well may have written his epic as an 'anti-Ring' to repair the damage that Wagner had inflicted upon Western culture." "As Bradley Birzer, David Harvey, and other commentators observe, Tolkien detested Wagner's neo-paganism."
Quote: Quote: Tolkien claimed to be uncomfortable with mixing, say, Nordic mythology such as Dwarves with obviously disparate mythology such as Centaurs or whatnot, which is what he objected to in Lewis's stories. But not so uncomfortable that he wouldn't mix them with other mythos?
He criticized Lewis for it; an article in National Review Online said, "...Tolkien famously criticized Narnia as an awkward mishmash of a world." "...Tolkien was a relentlessly honest man and he could not hide his antipathy for the Narnian project: 'I hear you've been reading Jack's children's story,' he told a mutual friend. 'It really won't do, you know!'" "Tolkien ... thought that The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe was an irritating blend of different cultural traditions: centaurs and fauns from the Greeks, dwarves from the Norse, and so on. And that's even before we get to this strange business about Jesus, Aslan, and Father Christmas."
Oh yes Tolkien mixed mythologies! He took elements of the Anglo-Saxon Beowulf with the Finnish Kalevala and all sorts of Norse goodness. And, significantly, took pieces of Wagner's mythology. But he felt that his mythology -- though inspired by other works -- was a cohesive "new mythology" in and of itself. He said he wished to "create a myth for England."
He could be thought of as a hypocrite. smile |
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:51 am
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:05 am
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missmagpie MoonJeli I saw Götterdämmerung earlier this month (the 12th I think), it was... so intense. I've listened to the entire opera on CD but never seen the whole opera live and oh! How I want to. I go to every opera the Portland Opera does, and they're doing The Flying Dutchman later this year. Woohoo! We're a small city as far as cities go, and we're lucky enough to have an all classical station, a great symphony and a great opera company. I'm a classical music geek. One of my lifelong dreams is to see the whole thing at the Beireuth festival. But of course that means booking now with money I don't have and maybe getting to see it when I'm eighty... I can't wait for my next two dvds to arrive. We found a copy of Berlioz conducting Die Valkuere and Siegfried in Beireuth not too long ago. I can't wait to get my hands on it. I think I'm also getting a dvd of Daniel Barenboim conducting Die Goetterdaemmerung. However nothing really matches up to a live performance. Even the oddly mediocre London Opera Company Siegfried was far more immersing than any dvd. Or maybe I'm just too elitist when it comes to music...
I don't have any DVDs of musical performances, oddly enough, except ... uh, Pink Floyd's The Wall. xd
I know I'll never get to anything akin to the Beireuth Wagnerian Festival -- I'd kill to do that. Even going to see the whole cycle in Seattle when it comes through is a long term goal for me. Most of my traveling is confined to holidays, art conventions and weddings (so many weddings, augh!) for the next few years. I may get to go to Hungary next year to scatter my fiance's grandfather's ashes, but that's the only trip to Europe I can expect for a long time. We just don't have the time or money for a weeklong trip to see an opera in Seattle right now.
Another opera I want to travel to see (since they did it here a few years ago, I seriously doubt it'll be done here again any time soon) would be Příhody Lišky Bystroušky (Cunning Little Vixen) -- it has particular significance to me and my family. |
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