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 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:54 am
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reagun ban This is the problem, Elfin. When you give a gift, it is not yours to say what should or shouldn't be done with it. Personally, I find the idea of giving a gift back repulsive. I would find it ignoble. You destroy the gift and carry the knowledge that you destroyed something that meant something to you with you always.
Actually, while I might give away some art for someone to enjoy, the copyright will belong to me. Unless I deciede to sell the copyright.
Now I really don't care if someone might distroy a book/impersonal gift I gave him/her, but with things I made myself it is different.
Distroying is defined. I would prefer finding a better house for it, if I would really find giving it back repulsive.
reagun ban No. I don't think so. On any case. He has plenty of swords and will buy one if he wants it, rather than wait for his birthday. I think what he was saying is, similar to swords being weapons and tools, gifts can be multi purpose
You mean a gift as a tool and a weapon? Seems farfetched. neutral But if you say so... neutral |
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:15 am
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Elfin Brill Actually, while I might give away some art for someone to enjoy, the copyright will belong to me. Unless I deciede to sell the copyright.
Non sequitor.
Giving a gift of a painting does not imply giving the copyright ownership of the painting.
I have several of my father's paintings. I've sold three of them. I don't owe him money for them. I have not broken copyright law.
However, should the new owners shoot an ad commercial in which any of them figure, they would be breaking copyright law.
Whether or not you painted it, you have no more rights to say what I do with it than the law says.
Elfin Brill Now I really don't care if someone might distroy a book/impersonal gift I gave him/her, but with things I made myself it is different. Distroying is defined. I would prefer finding a better house for it, if I would really find giving it back repulsive.
Yes. You would find.
What I'm stating is that I wouldn't.
So, hypothetically, you give me a quick drawing before this difference has come.
We fall out because you do something I fid unforgivable, or I do someting you find unforgivable.
Our trust in each other is destroyed.
That painting meant a lot to me.
It has a lot of emotional value to me and I am connected to it because of that.
I can give you back this connection or destroy it.
Elfin Brill You mean a gift as a tool and a weapon? Seems farfetched. neutral But if you say so... neutral
No.
What I'm saying is
A sword is a tool.
A sword is a weapon.
A gift is a thing given for esteem.
A gift is something to strengthen a bond.
No connection between gift and sword other than analogy |
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:19 am
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:22 am
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Elfin Brill Fiddler's Green Just as a sword is a weapon, and a weapon is a tool... a sword is still a tool... but even moreso, it is a weapon. Did you just say a gift is like a weapon? neutral I fail to see the simularities, unless you are hinting that you want a sword for you birthday. wink
Not exactly...
I was using a similie...
Basically, While a Sword is a Tool...
More specifically, it is a Weapon.
So, while some gifts are just objects and affections...
Some are more than that , they are a stand-in for the person giving it. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:23 am
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:30 am
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:46 am
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:44 pm
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*What you are about to read has nothing to do with a pagan slant of gift giving but is a slightly ramblely rant on Blind's basic gift giving prowess*
I hate gift giving. Sounds fairly uncharitable, but I don't mean it that way. For whatever reasons, there are very few people whom I want to give anything to.
Most of the people I am interesting in giving to are family or very close friends, and I give to them all the time. Its not often tangible but it is my time, energy, concern, positive energies, thoughts, and help. I give when they ask or when I think they need it. If I'm at the store and remember they were running low on X, in need of Y, or really liked Z then I pick it up or bake it for them (I'm not particularly crafty though I wish I was). I give it to them when I see them next not so much on special occasions, because they are my friends or my family and I want to do whatever I can to help them.
I don't like giving because "I should". Times like the winter season and birthdays annoy me. I want to give something meaningful to these people close to me to show my care and appreciation and when it comes to more tangible gifts I'm always feel like I'm lacking. I'm not good at the little special gift thing.
Another thing I don't like the generic card giving thing everyone seems to hand out to everyone they know. I feel bad recieving without giving and I still don't really want to give to most of those people. I barely know them and I don't have that kind of cash. In short, I'm a grumpy holiday spoiler. The whole giving thing stresses me out during that time of the year.
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:02 am
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:26 am
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reagun ban I have several of my father's paintings. I've sold three of them. I don't owe him money for them. I have not broken copyright law.
eek You must've been real out of cash to sell family heirlooms.
reagun ban However, should the new owners shoot an ad commercial in which any of them figure, they would be breaking copyright law. Whether or not you painted it, you have no more rights to say what I do with it than the law says.
I'm not going to fight with you about copyright. stare I'm still figuring that one out, we don;t all have a familymember in the law.
reagun ban Yes. You would find. What I'm stating is that I wouldn't.
~nods~ 3nodding
reagun ban So, hypothetically, you give me a quick drawing before this difference has come.
That would be VERY hypothetically. stare But okay, let's go for it...
reagun ban We fall out because you do something I fid unforgivable, or I do someting you find unforgivable. Our trust in each other is destroyed. That painting meant a lot to me. It has a lot of emotional value to me and I am connected to it because of that. I can give you back this connection or destroy it.
~nods~ However, there are other options. Like putting it away for years, till all the emotional hurt that might be attactched to it has gone. Or giving it to someone else who likes it. Or even selling it to make a buck. All those things are possible. There are also other ways of severing a bond, then burning stuff.
BUT!!! If you give me a promise to give something back if you don;t like it anymore, destroying is not an honourable option. stare |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:56 am
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Elfin Brill reagun ban I have several of my father's paintings. I've sold three of them. I don't owe him money for them. I have not broken copyright law. You must've been real out of cash to sell family heirlooms.
I'm incredibly insulted by this on so many counts.
Firstly, I was doing financially well at the time.
Secondly, They're not family heirlooms
Thirdly, I wouldn't sell heirlooms because I was low on cash. I won't get heirlooms, I won't have children to pass them on to, no heirs, no heirlooms.
Elfin Brill ~nods~ However, there are other options. Like putting it away for years
Elfin Brill Or even selling it to make a buck.
If you try to fry me, then that innocent person gets hit instead.
Not an option.
Elfin Brill There are also other ways of severing a bond, then burning stuff.
There are.
But they are time and effort consuming.
Elfin Brill BUT!!! If you give me a promise to give something back if you don;t like it anymore, destroying is not an honourable option. stare
Where did this promise come from?
That's not part of the hypothetical. |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:39 am
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reagun ban I'm incredibly insulted by this on so many counts. Firstly, I was doing financially well at the time.
Why were you selling them then? eek I would NEVER sell family paintings! eek
reagun ban Secondly, They're not family heirlooms.
Why? Your father made them, he is your family right? They were past down to you, and you are his heir. So unless our definition differ, they were family heirlooms.
reagun ban Thirdly, I wouldn't sell heirlooms because I was low on cash. I won't get heirlooms, I won't have children to pass them on to, no heirs, no heirlooms.
Is this about you being gay, or you making the choice to not have children?
If the first, I would love you to tell my mother that she can't have children just because she is gay, if the second... Are you the only one left of your whole family? If no, I cannot see any reason of you not owning heirlooms.
I am sorry if you feel insulted by it though. It was not ment as such.
reagun ban Where did this promise come from? That's not part of the hypothetical.
Do you think this fantasy case of yours might come about without it? Just after you told me you'd like to burn stuff? wink
About the other stuff, my knowledge of frying people with magic is lacking so much I cannot counter that. Allthough it does seem silly to attack you magicly with my very own beloved paintings, when I could use the stuff you gave me instead or pictures I took from you... Better yet, why fry you magicly, when I can just walk up to you and say hurtfull stuff. No magic required, to hurt you. |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:18 am
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Elfin Brill Why were you selling them then? eek I would NEVER sell family paintings! eek
Quote: Allthough it does seem silly to attack you magicly with my very own beloved paintings, when I could use the stuff you gave me instead or pictures I took from you...
Quote: Better yet, why fry you magicly, when I can just walk up to you and say hurtfull stuff. No magic required, to hurt you. |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:21 am
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Elfin Brill Why were you selling them then? eek I would NEVER sell family paintings! eek
And here we come to the
Elfin Brill Why? Your father made them, he is your family right?
All comes down to definitions. I don't consider him to be my family no.
Elfin Brill They were past down to you
No, they were given to me.
Elfin Brill If the first, I would love you to tell my mother that she can't have children just because she is gay
Notice the male avatar.
Notice the male person behind it.
Notice the lack of womb.
Your mother can have children because she has a ******** womb. If she adopted, more ******** power to her but that is legally impossible in this country.
Stop trying to prove me wrong unless you actually know you're right.
Elfin Brill , if the second... Are you the only one left of your whole family? If no, I cannot see any reason of you not owning heirlooms.
.... Because it would make more sense to give them to my sisters.
Elfin Brill Do you think this fantasy case of yours might come about without it? Just after you told me you'd like to burn stuff? wink
....
Yes.
My hypothetical.
My rules.
Plus.
How could I sell the things if I had promised to give them back...
Elfin Brill Better yet, why fry you magicly, when I can just walk up to you and say hurtfull stuff.
.....
Tht's not going to hurt me, it's going to irritate me and anyone who knows me will attest to that. You'd honestly piss off a mystic like that?
Elfin Brill No magic required, to hurt you.
Allow me rephrase
"No, magic required to hurt you". |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:33 am
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Elfin.
I'll rephrase the entire thing because, either by choice or circumstance, you're misinterpreting half of what I say and drawing external information into the hypothetical situation. If you're a gamer, do you often metagame too?
Let's say Tom is a painter and mysticly inclined.
Let's say Bob is not a painter but he is a fairly competent mystic.
Tom and Bob are good friends.
Tom gives Bob a painting.
Tom and Bob fall out because Tom did something bad.
Bob no longer trusts Tom.
Bob has an item which acts as a tangible connection between the two.
There is only one way to get rid of this connection that is convenient, safe and, from Bob's point of view, appropriate.
Burn, cut up, bury or in some way destroy it.
Bob knows that if he gives it b0ack that he has given ownership of that tangible connection to Tom.
Bob knows that if he gives it to someone else and you have put them in danger.
Bob knows that if he puts it in a room that he has to expend time, effort and resources keeping it in a room where it can't harm anyone.
Would you like to try throwing other questions at me?
Believe me, I have given the best part of six years thought to the "could I do anything different this time" gift thing and between mystics and those who are mystically or magically inclined, the only thing I can think of doing with regard to gifts is destroying them.
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