Compulsory Identity Cards?

[and_solo_said]

Invictus_88

I think the main problem is that the database misused could easily take away many freedoms.

That is entirely possible, given the current government.  

[Emmanuela]

Quote:

I think the main problem is that the database misused could easily take away many freedoms.

This is a very good point. Just because the majority are law-abiding, does not mean that others will not hack into the database and use our records for malignant reasons. There are lots of safety issuses, and I'm not talking stupid Health and Saftey crap.

Solo, why do you have to be so mean about my statement? I was pointing out that they're pointless as the Government already have all the information anyway, as well you know. And freedom? Well, if people want to go up to Guantanamo and show their I.D. cards, they're welcome to do it, but I don't see your point.

So you can't see all of the information at a glance, but if you run it through a machine, you could, and anyway, you still see some information, it's not a blank piece of white plastic.

Do you want to be put into complete conform to everyone else? And I don't see what is wrong with you being Comunist, you believe what you want, that's fine with me, just stop getting so worked up about it! To challenge your freedoms as you so wish? Hehe, you take offence to easily! Listen to my point, think about it, don't let your thoughts get in the way until you have fully read and digested my point. Invictus managed to make me realise that the Monarchy did more for our nation then just sit and look pretty.  

[and_solo_said]

Emmanuela

Quote:

I think the main problem is that the database misused could easily take away many freedoms.

This is a very good point. Just because the majority are law-abiding, does not mean that others will not hack into the database and use our records for malignant reasons. There are lots of safety issuses, and I'm not talking stupid Health and Saftey crap.

Solo, why do you have to be so mean about my statement? I was pointing out that they're pointless as the Government already have all the information anyway, as well you know. And freedom? Well, if people want to go up to Guantanamo and show their I.D. cards, they're welcome to do it, but I don't see your point.
I am saying that the card cannot take away freedoms, but proves to others that you have them and are entitled to them.

So you can't see all of the information at a glance, but if you run it through a machine, you could, and anyway, you still see some information, it's not a blank piece of white plastic.
The most important defence computers in the USA were hacked into using software downloadded for free off of the internet, having it all in one place (if executed properly) could be a means of prote4cting it with greater ease.

Do you want to be put into complete conform to everyone else? I still don't understand how having the card makes you a conformist. the cards show that you are an individual.

And I don't see what is wrong with you being Comunist, you believe what you want, that's fine with me, just stop getting so worked up about it! To challenge your freedoms as you so wish? Hehe, you take offence to easily! Not getting worked up, I just like my posts to be more interesting than a couple of sentances.

Listen to my point, think about it, don't let your thoughts get in the way until you have fully read and digested my point. Invictus managed to make me realise that the Monarchy did more for our nation then just sit and look pretty.
I have read your point, and I have heard it from several others, but nobody has yet offered a reason as to how indentity cards steal your identity.

 

[Emmanuela]

Quote:

I still don't understand how having the card makes you a conformist. the cards show that you are an individual.

That's actually quite I good point, I've never thought of it like that, but still, I just don't like the idea of the government having all of my personal details, that people can hack into and steal.

Quote:

I have read your point, and I have heard it from several others, but nobody has yet offered a reason as to how indentity cards steal your identity.

How they steal your identity? Alas, this might take some thinking... I would say a reason, but it's fairly lame, so I won't... But still, I just don't want to have to carry around a bit plastic that anybody can take, and steal my identity. I think it's all a waste of time and money really...  

[and_solo_said]

Emmanuela

Quote:

I still don't understand how having the card makes you a conformist. the cards show that you are an individual.

That's actually quite I good point, I've never thought of it like that, but still, I just don't like the idea of the government having all of my personal details, that people can hack into and steal.

Quote:

I have read your point, and I have heard it from several others, but nobody has yet offered a reason as to how indentity cards steal your identity.

How they steal your identity? Alas, this might take some thinking... I would say a reason, but it's fairly lame, so I won't... But still, I just don't want to have to carry around a bit plastic that anybody can take, and steal my identity. I think it's all a waste of time and money really...

Indeed it is.  

[[Finrod]]

Charging in blindly into an old debate ...

I happen to be both involved in UK Security and computer databases. And I fear the National Identity Register. The cards themselves are pointless and irritating, but not ultimately severly harmful (it would be worrying to be the first non-fascist state to introduce ID cards outside of wartime, but that's beside the point).

It is the proposed monolithic master ID Database that is the keystone of my alarm:

- Firstly, the system is pointless. It will do nothing against terrorism - 80% of the countries most hit by terrorism have ID cards. It will do nothing against benefit fraud, by the Government's own admission. It will do nothing against crime - muggers and burglars are not typically asked for ID when carrying out their crimes.

- Secondly, it will be colossally expensive. The Government estimates for this monolithic computerised data register have risen from £3 billion to more than £5 billion. Independent experts have estimated £20 billion. That's the equivalent of over 100 new hospitals. We will, of course, still have to pay for the card to go with it, at a cost of £85 per person. It won't be compulsory - you'll merely need it if you wish to drive, leave the country, use the NHS, work, or claim benefits ...

- Thirdly, it will actually increase the chance of identity theft. The experiences of other countries suggest that if someone can get hold of your unique master number, they can take your identity far more comprehensively than at present. The cards will, of course, be forgeable. If they won't be, why are huge penalties proposed for doing so?

- Fourthly, the Bill assumes that the system will work perfectly and without leaks, despite the failure of this Government to successfully implement almost any major IT system that it has undertaken, despite the experience of the current criminal register where at least 193 innocent people have been incorrectly accused, despite the experience with the DVLA official leaking the home addresses of selected individuals to animal rights organisations. So anyone with "something to hide" - such as abused spouses escaping their partners, witnesses in witness protection schemes, investigative journalists, policemen and armed forces members (criminals and terrorists will love this database, with its home addresses) - will live in fear.

- Fifthly, I resent being required to turn up at a time and place of the Government's choice to be fingerprinted, at the threat of a £1,000 fine, being threatened with another £1,000 fine if I forget to notify the Government when I move house, having my details disclosed without my consent to a variety of agencies, and then facing the possibility of losing my basic rights to travel, use the health service, and work if I don't have my card or if it is defective.

It is pointless, difficult, expensive, dangerous and intrusive. So I really, really do not support them.  

[Invictus_88]

Indeed, and if the NHS systems are anything to go by, it's just an excuse to award large and malleable contracts to companies which support the party.  

[Dedale]

It is a bit unnerving. I strongly disagree with the idea of making something mandatory and then charging for it. It seems as though it would be unfair to those who can't afford the 93 pounds or however much it was. What do they do? Get thrown in prison?  

[Shadow__Dweller]

I do think that we should have a system of ID cards..but I don't think they should be compulsary. I don't think they should be free, but they should definately be cheaper than the proposed price. I'd say, about ten pounds. Because if someone asks me for my id, I either have to give a provisional driving licence, which I don't have, because I don't drive, or a passport. Both of those are expensive, and not something I'd want to lose, which is why I don't want to carry them round with me. So I definately think a new form of ID card should be issued, but I don't think it should be compulsary, or expensive.  

[[Finrod]]

Shadow_Dweller - I'd have no problem with that. The two outrageous points for me are:
1 - The monolithic tracking database.
2 - Compulsory carrying of "papers".

A "non-drivers" document would be fine by me - on the same principles as the drivers license for proof of identity but not giving rights to drive. Just proof that you have proven your identity to the same level as required for a drivers license.  

[Shadow__Dweller]

[Finrod]

Shadow_Dweller - I'd have no problem with that. The two outrageous points for me are:
1 - The monolithic tracking database.
2 - Compulsory carrying of "papers".

A "non-drivers" document would be fine by me - on the same principles as the drivers license for proof of identity but not giving rights to drive. Just proof that you have proven your identity to the same level as required for a drivers license.

agreed.  

[unchienanglais]

If you can prove your identity sufficiently well to obtain a card, you don't need one; if you can't prove your identity sufficiently well to obtain a card, you presumably shouldn't get one.  

[loIitoads]

Personally, as a transhumanist and technophile, I love the idea of huge, unwieldy databases and any little gadget that I may get to carry. Thus, an electronically coded ID card appeals greatly to me.


Also, Britain wouldn't be the first outside of wartime:

Wikipedia

If introduced, Britain would become only the fifth common law country to adopt ID cards in peacetime, after Cyprus, Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore.

However, if you look at this issue seriously, if the government keep your data, they aren't going to be able to impinge on your personal freedom. I mean, what data can they possibly keep that will hurt you? Sure, you might get more spam mail- big deal!

I do wish we could just leave it up to computers, though. The only fears I have are human errors... I feel disenfranchised by the British political system in general, so I shouldn't really be talking about this. No party at the moment seems worthy to lead Britain, especially into a technological age D: The Lib Dems, if they could just get organsied, could do it, if they were truly liberal... Labour are a joke, even with Brown, and the Conservatives are (sorry if you vote for them) old fogies and insulting to an evolving culture. OFF TOPIC THERE, HUH?  

[Invictus_88]

You don't have to be an idiot to be a transhumanist.

After all, transhumanism isn't about big databases, illiberal documentations and government bloated beyond ideally-functioning size.

Transhumanism is about liberty. It is the brave extension of our powers, abilities and liberties.  

[loIitoads]

Invictus_88

You don't have to be an idiot to be a transhumanist.

After all, transhumanism isn't about big databases, illiberal documentations and government bloated beyond ideally-functioning size.

Transhumanism is about liberty. It is the brave extension of our powers, abilities and liberties.

Nor do you have to insult those you debate with. I am aware of what transhumanism is and isn't, if you are wondering that. Really, I shouldn't have included the word, though, for 'technophile' would have done enough. I am actually on the liberal wing of tranhumanism, but I do think that identity cards can be utilised in an efficient and liberal way.

What do you honestly do, legally, that having an identity card will impinge upon? No-one should have anything to fear, and the British government has too strong a liberal tradition to truly enact a dictatorship.

An identity card can be useful, to get into clubs, pubs, etc, as a replacement for passports, perhaps. Essentially, it could eventually become that single piece of documentation that you need, and with advancing technologies could constantly evolve to face new threats.

As for the government using huge databases? It's an exciting idea, and I do honestly believe that government should evolve with the times, and not stay rooted to ancient methods of policing the state. If it could be successfully run, such a database (properly encrypted) could help protect many people.