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Gravitational Molestation
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 Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:01 pm
Oh no! He's discovered I'm a troll!
Too bad he hasn't discovered a counter argument to all the reasons why Karakuri fail.
Oh shiz.
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:44 pm
Mustard Like Soup Legendary Pirate Plasma yet that didn't stop them from topping an SJ Are we still making it out to be a winning deck, after both the judging staff and player base clearly acknowledging that the man was a cheater, hence why he was disqualified and has his name hung up on Konami's website under the "not allowed at events" list? Yeah, they're spectacular, for sure. /sarcasm From what I heard he was never "caught" cheating at that particular event so nothing was levied against him. but I never heard about him being put back on the banned from events list.
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:20 pm
Even still, the only way Chimeratech Fortress works is Cyber Dragon. Get rid of Cyber Dragon and/or make sure it doesn't hit the field and Chimeratech Fortress is done. And with all of the countless ways to negate Special Summons nowadays... it shouldn't even be an issue.
As for a counter-argument, Casual Play differs from Competitive Play due to the fact that Casual Players play for the fun of the game, win or lose. We play with deck ideas we think are neat and like playing with like-minded individuals who also acknowledge that archetypes DO, in fact, exist outside of the meta. Competitive Players play to win. They don't care about trying anything new if it won't help them win the next tournament.
They are two different beasts because one beast is in it for the lulz. The other beast is in it to win or rage trying. Karakuri belongs to the first beast and that's just fine with me. Same with Spiders, Reptilianne (which is very surprisingly non-meta), Incan, B.E.S., Gradius, Dark Scorpions, Archfiends, Neo-Parshath, etc.
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:46 pm
They aren't two different beasts because a top tier deck will still win in casual play. The difference is in attitude, not in what mechanically makes a deck better or worse. They are the same beast.
You waste a summon negation on Cydra, again, a follow up will crush you. Talking in general, CFD has destroyed the strength of Machina and will nerf Karakuri hardcore and keep them from being anything of strength.
I'm confused as to how you think a deck will still be good when you weigh it against the other options out there.
Even in casual play I'd play Gravekeeper's or Sabers or Plants. Why? They are fun as hell. I'd stomp your casual play with a deck that is top tier just because I find them fun. I'd stomp your casual play because you don't understand the finer tactics employed in competitive play. You just do what you think is right but don't have the experience to prove your opinion wrong.
Which, your opinion is wrong.
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Gravitational Molestation
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:53 pm
Gravitational Molestation They aren't two different beasts because a top tier deck will still win in casual play. The difference is in attitude, not in what mechanically makes a deck better or worse. They are the same beast. You waste a summon negation on Cydra, again, a follow up will crush you. Talking in general, CFD has destroyed the strength of Machina and will nerf Karakuri hardcore and keep them from being anything of strength. I'm confused as to how you think a deck will still be good when you weigh it against the other options out there. Even in casual play I'd play Gravekeeper's or Sabers or Plants. Why? They are fun as hell. I'd stomp your casual play with a deck that is top tier just because I find them fun. I'd stomp your casual play because you don't understand the finer tactics employed in competitive play. You just do what you think is right but don't have the experience to prove your opinion wrong. Which, your opinion is wrong. But you just proved my point. In Casual Play, the point is not to win. The point is to have fun. If you have fun playing a Competitive Deck, fantastic. However, just because Competitive Play is superior in deck design doesn't mean its more enjoyable for some. You may think playing competitive decks is fun. I don't. I picked up and played a Gladiator Beast deck once. I gave it back to whoever I borrowed it from because I HATED how it played. Sure, I won with ease, but that's not the point of casual play. So to be frank, you don't understand the point of Casual Play. From what I can tell, you believe winning is all there is to a game, especially since you seem to think I don't know how to employ "competitive tactics" in a casual game. I'm here to tell you that, at least in my opinion and the opinions of a handful of others on the board, you are wrong.
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:12 pm
I didn't prove your point. You're defending Karakuri. In reality, Karakuri is a subpar archtype, regardless of "casual" or "competitive" play because all decks in each area rank the same way.
As for the point of casual play, it's for people who can't have fun with the finer tactics of top tier play. It's for people who lose a lot and don't want to deal with playing the same decks over and over again. Yadda yadda.
You, honestly, have no idea about the competitive field.
AND, you have no idea who I am. I have fun, win or lose, in competitive play. Why? Because I enjoy the tactics used there. It's why I enjoy competitive chess. There's little to no deviation within the first 10+ moves but, once out of the opening, even the smallest subtleties are what matter.
You swing a large and blunt sword.
I utilize a scalpel.
Try again.
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Gravitational Molestation
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:15 pm
The objective to the game, casual to high-end tournaments, is to win. It all depends on individual attitude what it is they would like to win, and the challenge they wish to undergo. Saying winning isn't the point of casual play isn't true, since it's the entire objective this game is made of. Rather, you WANT to win, it's just you've been upset with the lack challenge your casual field gave to a deck that was constructed with theory to stand taller.
"Fun vs. win" is really an overdone subject that in its entirety makes no sense, since the fun of your casual games comes from competing to win. You, like all others preaching it, are just in the subject in an effort to put them down and feel better about yourselves, just like how elitists put your ideas down because the theory and card pool doesn't work in their competitive environment.
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:29 pm
Mustard Like Soup The objective to the game, casual to high-end tournaments, is to win. It all depends on individual attitude what it is they would like to win, and the challenge they wish to undergo. Saying winning isn't the point of casual play isn't true, since it's the entire objective this game is made of. Rather, you WANT to win, it's just you've been upset with the lack challenge your casual field gave to a deck that was constructed with theory to stand taller. "Fun vs. win" is really an overdone subject that in its entirety makes no sense, since the fun of your casual games comes from competing to win. You, like all others preaching it, are just in the subject in an effort to put them down and feel better about yourselves, just like how elitists put your ideas down because the theory and card pool doesn't work in their competitive environment. Lawl, this too.
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Gravitational Molestation
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:31 pm
Mustard Like Soup The objective to the game, casual to high-end tournaments, is to win. It all depends on individual attitude what it is they would like to win, and the challenge they wish to undergo. Saying winning isn't the point of casual play isn't true, since it's the entire objective this game is made of. Rather, you WANT to win, it's just you've been upset with the lack challenge your casual field gave to a deck that was constructed with theory to stand taller. "Fun vs. win" is really an overdone subject that in its entirety makes no sense, since the fun of your casual games comes from competing to win. You, like all others preaching it, are just in the subject in an effort to put them down and feel better about yourselves, just like how elitists put your ideas down because the theory and card pool doesn't work in their competitive environment. I like to think of myself as defending my viewpoints against people who say an archetype sucks because it doesn't win games. Its archetypes like that which I personally consider to have the most potential. Unexplored territory in deckbuilding, if you will. If you say it sucks, I disagree. The reverse is true with the formerly-god-tier-now-defunct Infernity archetype. The instant Infernities were given God Tier, I didn't want anything to do with it anymore. I play for fun. If I win, I only have fun winning against a player and/or deck I like playing against or if the deck concept interested me. If I lose, I only have fun losing against a player and/or deck I like playing against or if the deck concept interested me. Notice the common denominator? If I have the same amount of fun either way, then why bother focusing on winning all the time when I can instead focus on having fun? Hell, if I had a choice to play Lightsworn and win all of my matches or play some random throw-together deck that looks interesting to me and lose all of my matches due to poor execution of the deckbuilding, I, unlike the two of you, would rather play the losing deck, figure out what's wrong with it, then modify it later to make it my own personal creation. I'll say it again. I don't play to win. Tournaments or otherwise. The reason I throw my money away to enter local tournaments is to play the game, win or lose. If I win, fantastic! If I lose, I usually have the same amount of fun I would if I had won, I just don't get the material prize I would have gotten had I won. But that's okay, because I can just buy my own cards later and make the tweaks I need.
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:03 pm
So, because a deck becomes top tier, no matter how much fun it actually is, you'll avoid it? That's stupid.
Also, you still play to win. Why do you attack with monsters? To attempt to reduce their lifepoints to 0. Meaning, you win! Why do you use any card at all? To reduce their lifepoints to 0, empty their deck, or create some other win condition. You play to win. Period.
Point in the end? Karakuri will never be tier one. While CFD breathes.
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Gravitational Molestation
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:24 pm
Gravitational Molestation So, because a deck becomes top tier, no matter how much fun it actually is, you'll avoid it? That's stupid. Also, you still play to win. Why do you attack with monsters? To attempt to reduce their lifepoints to 0. Meaning, you win! Why do you use any card at all? To reduce their lifepoints to 0, empty their deck, or create some other win condition. You play to win. Period. Point in the end? Karakuri will never be tier one. While CFD breathes. No. A deck that becomes top tier is no longer fun because the strategies have been done to death so often that, if I were to build my own version of the deck, I would have competitive players like you breathing down my neck, saying "Why don't you run this like every other build?", then get insulted to my face and called a rookie because I built the deck my way and not how the World Champs built it. Reducing LP to 0 to win the duel is the object of the game, a means to an end. If the game went on and on until someone got bored and left, I'd still find the game fun. I consider winning or losing the duel to be a point of intermission between games rather than the point of the game itself. As for Karakuri, as it is now, I acknowledge it will not be Tier 1. However, I think you're naive if you think Konami is going to let a non-Anime Archetype die so easily. I enjoy Karakuri as it is now because it has that room for improvement, that unexplored territory that no Competitive Player truly cares about. Chimeratech Fortress Dragon is merely an antimeta sideboard for Machines, as plain as Mirror of Oaths, Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror, and Thunder King Rai-Oh. It can be dealt with just the same. But where Karakuri is right now, in the Tier 2 and Lower category, I actually have interest in it still.
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:50 pm
No one remembers the other ******** you to machines that goes in every sideboard? System Down? Hello? razz
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:58 pm
Fresh Porn No one remembers the other ******** you to machines that goes in every sideboard? System Down? Hello? razz People prefer to use an Anti-Machine card that provides them a 2000+ ATK beatstick rather than a 1000 LP Cost spell that only lasts the instant its used. However, if I knew I was going up against that, I could run Overload Fusion / Chimeratech Overdragon, then RftDD into my own Fortress. But that's a bit too elaborate. Still need to think about how to counter that besides Dark Bribe, Magic Drain, or Imperial Iron Wall.
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:02 pm
Oh no, you've said that you will ditch a deck simply because it's top tier. Just because YOU aren't the first to play with it. How pathetic is that? Play what is fun for you, go for it but at least live what you preach. If you like LS, play it. If you like Plants, play them. Otherwise, you're just being whiney about the competitive field of play. Seriously, you're arguing that if you play top tier, competitive players will try to get you to conform to the tried and true decklist.
Too bad you get that in casual too.
Competitive players proving time and again that your argument that you "play the game for fun so the competitive field isn't for you" is bullshit because fun exists in the competitive field too.
Honestly, if you don't care what competitive players say in the first place, you shouldn't care about what they say for your version of an archtype that's become tier one.
It doesn't matter what you "consider" the end of a duel to be. You play the game to win. You try to overpower your opponent's field, hand and strategy. Even if it went on forever, you're still playing to overpower your opponent. Period, end of discussion. That is playing to win.
Um, yes, Konami will. Karakuri are flat out dead. Unless CFD gets hit to 0, Karakuri are dead.
CFD is not sidedecked, it is maindecked. No deck aside from Quickdraw has a full 15 slots. All decks can afford one slot for CFD. It's not sidedecked P:
Also, you keep assuming that competitive players don't test out archtypes that come out. Like we haven't testplayed Karakuri's the end of time. You're naive to think we don't dig into it, research it, test play it, etc.
However, your interest in Karakuri is moot. Flat out, Karakuri will fail and continue to fail unless CFD gets hit.
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Gravitational Molestation
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:18 pm
Gravitational Molestation Oh no, you've said that you will ditch a deck simply because it's top tier. Just because YOU aren't the first to play with it. How pathetic is that? Play what is fun for you, go for it but at least live what you preach. If you like LS, play it. If you like Plants, play them. Otherwise, you're just being whiney about the competitive field of play. Seriously, you're arguing that if you play top tier, competitive players will try to get you to conform to the tried and true decklist. Too bad you get that in casual too. Competitive players proving time and again that your argument that you "play the game for fun so the competitive field isn't for you" is bullshit because fun exists in the competitive field too. Honestly, if you don't care what competitive players say in the first place, you shouldn't care about what they say for your version of an archtype that's become tier one. It doesn't matter what you "consider" the end of a duel to be. You play the game to win. You try to overpower your opponent's field, hand and strategy. Even if it went on forever, you're still playing to overpower your opponent. Period, end of discussion. That is playing to win. Um, yes, Konami will. Karakuri are flat out dead. Unless CFD gets hit to 0, Karakuri are dead. CFD is not sidedecked, it is maindecked. No deck aside from Quickdraw has a full 15 slots. All decks can afford one slot for CFD. It's not sidedecked P: Also, you keep assuming that competitive players don't test out archtypes that come out. Like we haven't testplayed Karakuri's the end of time. You're naive to think we don't dig into it, research it, test play it, etc. However, your interest in Karakuri is moot. Flat out, Karakuri will fail and continue to fail unless CFD gets hit. "Oh no, you've said that you will ditch a deck simply because it's top tier. Just because YOU aren't the first to play with it." I'm going to ask you a direct question. If I built an Infernity deck that did not run Infernity Launcher or Infernity Mirage, what would you say about the deck? What about a Blackwing deck that did not run Black Whirlwind, Vayu, or Kalut? There are certain key cards that, if omitted from the deck, would severely cripple the deck's effectiveness. For me, it would make such decks more balanced and fun to play against lower tiers with. In fact, if I could actually get away with making those changes and posting them on the Deck Database, I would be very happy. However, I know for a fact that people like yourself would immediately tell me to add in the gamebreaking cards I intentionally omitted for balancing purposes and, upon telling you of my own intentional changes, you'd start the name-calling because I'm not conforming to the meta. In the casual play that I know, I build my own decks out of T2 and lower materials and I have never had the problems you assume I have. Not once. I see someone else's deck design and tweak it to my own playstyle. And my like-minded friends do the same to my decks. And because you are being stubborn as an ox on both opinions of playing the game to win and Karakuri never getting the support it needs, I refuse to discuss those topics further.
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