Baptism and Converting

[rmcdra]

Fiddlers Green

Why should the apostate care what their former affiliation considers them?
Also, if the apostate has reason to believe that the sacrament giving authority(organization) does not actually have the Authority(divine investiture) to grant these sacraments, would they still be bound, or does it make the matter moot?

It's moot to say the least but some apostates do care. I figured that the apostates should know this.

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I disagree. However, I will agree to disagree. I merely mention this to give context to my position.

Fair enough.

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This does little to cover Coptics, Armenians, or any other non-nicene, who may practice their own baptismal rights. Further, how can the RCC recognize baptisms performed by excommunicated members without lifting that excommunication?

Well it doesn't cover the non-trinitarians or non-Nicene groups. They are not recognized as Christians by the RCC. Concerning an excommunicated performing a baptism 1256 covers it. Excommunicated means that you are a Christian, just one that is not in communion. In the EO at least, you are still required to attend Church even when excommunicated, you just can't partake in the Eucharist. I think 1988 update to Canon Law nullified the two types of excommunication to a single one that is similar to the EO. This means you can give a baptism as long as there is intent and the words follow the trinitarian baptismal formula.

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CCC

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[69]

Someone please clarify this one for me. sweatdrop

You have to be at baptized before you can be excommunicated.  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

I find it of great concern that the Church in Rome considers those baptized outside of their auspice to be of the same spiritual status as their own. It implies an ownership of the faith that galls me. As a staunch anti-Nicene, I consider it something of a personal affront.

I can understand why it would imply such, but when taken along side the Vatican II papers (citation available upon request) it's speaking more to the universal nature of the Faith, rather than an attempt to own spiritual truth, hence why they don't extend that same social status.

The assumption is basically that if the intent is present within a spiritual act- if someone is honestly seeking the god Yeshua taught of (mileage may vary on that wink ) that the Church itself isn't in a position to tell someone that their sincere attempt at finding their god is wrong and that they will stand on Scripture to those ends.

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To address 1121 regarding the three sacraments...
Do the 3 not confer the different levels of affiliation?
Baptism: a positive disposition for grace
Confirmation: a promise and guarantee of divine protection
Holy Orders: a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church

I've got an appointment with the local Bishop to explain this to me fully, however, that was sorta the impression that I got from my initial inquiries.

How it is expressed according to the Father I talked to at St. Martain's.

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Work hard for it.

Had a friend who as a last resort pissed in the Holy Water.  

[Recursive Paradox]

I accept that I broke my oaths to YHVH. It's part of why I consider Christian churches and places sacred to YHVH hostile ground. I do not enter them because I know I wouldn't want an oathbreaker in my domain. And while I will not submit to any being and will oppose any that seeks to make me their own, that does not mean I ought to disrespect a deity's domain by flaunting my broken oaths in his face, especially with the relationship previous. The Laws of Mutual Respect demand that I stay my distance.

I feel that my ends (forging a path to Aspecthood on my own, building Etherism, engaging my own power, seeking my own wisdom, elevating the Self and growth) required I sever my ties to YHVH. I have no doubt he would not allow such things were I still in oath to him. So I made a difficult choice, one that may follow me for the rest of my existence, but a choice that needed to be made nevertheless.

I don't blame my parents though. They did not realize I would seek growth in this way and so did not realize that tying me to YHVH would have left me in such a position.  

[TeaDidikai]

Recursive Paradox

I feel that my ends (forging a path to Aspecthood on my own, building Etherism, engaging my own power, seeking my own wisdom, elevating the Self and growth) required I sever my ties to YHVH.

Just as a point of reference, from a Gnostic Perspective, you are completely correct.
I thought it would be worth pointing out, since your position builds a dichotomy and I noticed there were options outside of it. wink  

[Recursive Paradox]

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

I feel that my ends (forging a path to Aspecthood on my own, building Etherism, engaging my own power, seeking my own wisdom, elevating the Self and growth) required I sever my ties to YHVH.

Just as a point of reference, from a Gnostic Perspective, you are completely correct.
I thought it would be worth pointing out, since your position builds a dichotomy and I noticed there were options outside of it. wink

Well, it's too late to take those other options to avoid breaking my oaths, but out of curiosity what would they be?

Edit: Or rather what options outside of the dichotomy I was creating exist?  

[TeaDidikai]

Recursive Paradox

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

I feel that my ends (forging a path to Aspecthood on my own, building Etherism, engaging my own power, seeking my own wisdom, elevating the Self and growth) required I sever my ties to YHVH.

Just as a point of reference, from a Gnostic Perspective, you are completely correct.
I thought it would be worth pointing out, since your position builds a dichotomy and I noticed there were options outside of it. wink

Well, it's too late to take those other options to avoid breaking my oaths, but out of curiosity what would they be?

Edit: Or rather what options outside of the dichotomy I was creating exist?

It was really more of a commentary on Gnosticism having the same goals you mentioned above.  

[patch99329]

I was christened at the age of three, in a church of england parish. I was not able to understand what was going on, my parents had me christened as a formality so I could get into a good school.

I'm not entirely sure what this means to me. But if I did indeed enter into an oath with YHVH, I have broken that oath and I am going to hell.
As much as I have the greatest respect for the CofE in particular, christianity makes little sense to me personally, and I don't think I could ever properly honour YHVH.
When I was first starting out as a pagan, I (somewhat naiively) prayed to YHVH and apologized. I now only honour him once a year or so, at the memorial day service at the local church.  

[Collowrath]

This thread reminds me, yet again, that whatever the problems inherent in my current path lacking a baptism and such, I'm probably really lucky that when I was starting down Pagan Lane, I didn't have to navigate apostate-dom.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

This thread reminds me, yet again, that whatever the problems inherent in my current path lacking a baptism and such, I'm probably really lucky that when I was starting down Pagan Lane, I didn't have to navigate apostate-dom.

Yeah... up to when you start examining Generational Curses. twisted  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

This thread reminds me, yet again, that whatever the problems inherent in my current path lacking a baptism and such, I'm probably really lucky that when I was starting down Pagan Lane, I didn't have to navigate apostate-dom.

Yeah... up to when you start examining Generational Curses. twisted

This is part 2 of the problem! xp But, worst case scenario, I'm on the last generation of the curse. At least I don't have to worry about ******** it up for anyone else.  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhet

Thanks for the breakdown Tea. Much appreciated.

Welcome.

Also, one important note, in the event that the person is not of the age of reason (ie, doesn't understand the commitment they are making) one of their parents must be willing to make that commitment in faith on their behalf until they are in the age of reason.

How do I know about this?
Well, it was one of the excuses they used to keep the Rroma out of Church yards. They claimed no faith on the part of the individuals seeking the baptism for the infant, (read: Roma parents) and thus, they could keep all the good grave plots for the "good Christians".

I don't understand the top part, may you please explain a little further?

 

[Collowrath]

Namikikyo - If the child is below the age of reason/would fail to Gom Jabbar fantastically, the parents are allowed to step in and make the decision for them. The idea here, I think, is that it is in the child's best interests even if it can't recognize it yet. Our parents do this for us regularly when we're children - for instance, we can't quite understand why being poked with a needle and suffering for a few days is in our best interests (e.g.: to not get malaria and die, etc) when we're a child, so our parents are allowed to make the decision for us.

Then, once we make it to the age of reason, it's up to us to continue regular doctor's visits/to continue within the Covenant, because at that point, we should be able to understand the consequences of not doing so.  

[Namikikyo]

Collowrath

Namikikyo - If the child is below the age of reason/would fail to Gom Jabbar fantastically, the parents are allowed to step in and make the decision for them. The idea here, I think, is that it is in the child's best interests even if it can't recognize it yet. Our parents do this for us regularly when we're children - for instance, we can't quite understand why being poked with a needle and suffering for a few days is in our best interests (e.g.: to not get malaria and die, etc) when we're a child, so our parents are allowed to make the decision for us.

Then, once we make it to the age of reason, it's up to us to continue regular doctor's visits/to continue within the Covenant, because at that point, we should be able to understand the consequences of not doing so.

The reason I ask this is because I was talking to my Mother about this and she told me that my Father had me baptized when I was baby without her consent. I never knew until now, so I'm a bit torn especially after building bonds with other gods and finding peace in Paganism. Now both my friend and I are distraught.

Now, I'm afraid that I have to leave paganism behind and slip back in christianity. I wish there was another way without invoking the wrath of him or being forced in a hell I don't want to believe in.

I'm very confused about what to do. I guess, just get over it?

 

[Collowrath]

Namikikyo

The reason I ask this is because I was talking to my Mother about this and she told me that my Father had me baptized when I was baby without her consent. I never knew until now, so I'm a bit torn especially after building bonds with other gods and finding peace in Paganism. Now both my friend and I are distraught.

Now, I'm afraid that I have to leave paganism behind and slip back in christianity. I wish there was another way without invoking the wrath of him or being forced in a hell I don't want to believe in.

I'm very confused about what to do. I guess, just get over it?

That sucks. My inclination is to tell you to analyze what Christianity meant to you before - what your thoughts on the legitimacy of its spiritual conclusions were and the legitimacy of its rites. For instance, if baptism didn't mean anything to you before and you didn't put any stock into its spiritual conclusions (ie, you felt they had it all upside down and sideways), why would this change it?

But really, it is important to know the denomination and what they expected of you following their baptism rite. Work from there, even if it comes down to phoning up Jesus and saying "I'm sorry, I didn't know, but I still can't make it to the party."

Also - look at the bright side! You won't become a vampire when you die! Yay!  

[Namikikyo]

Collowrath

Namikikyo

The reason I ask this is because I was talking to my Mother about this and she told me that my Father had me baptized when I was baby without her consent. I never knew until now, so I'm a bit torn especially after building bonds with other gods and finding peace in Paganism. Now both my friend and I are distraught.

Now, I'm afraid that I have to leave paganism behind and slip back in christianity. I wish there was another way without invoking the wrath of him or being forced in a hell I don't want to believe in.

I'm very confused about what to do. I guess, just get over it?

That sucks. My inclination is to tell you to analyze what Christianity meant to you before - what your thoughts on the legitimacy of its spiritual conclusions were and the legitimacy of its rites. For instance, if baptism didn't mean anything to you before and you didn't put any stock into its spiritual conclusions (ie, you felt they had it all upside down and sideways), why would this change it?

But really, it is important to know the denomination and what they expected of you following their baptism rite. Work from there, even if it comes down to phoning up Jesus and saying "I'm sorry, I didn't know, but I still can't make it to the party."

Also - look at the bright side! You won't become a vampire when you die! Yay!

I don't know wether to laugh or cry. I think I'd rather be a vampire at this point, lol. As long as I don't sparkle.

I think you're right, Collowrath. Thank you kindly.

Since my Father was the one that allowed it I think I'll ask him about it and what he thinks. Maybe there is a silver lining to this dark cloud, I just have to find it.