Vampires, werewolves, and Otherkin, oh my!

[Underworld Priestess]

Kuroiban

celticfireguardian

It is not cosplay when it is how a person truly is. They may not have even heard of Otherkin, it's just how they are.

I've never seen any evidence, in any way, to indicate such is possible. I have, however, seen every indication that such claims are completely false, made up, or imagined.

I kindly ask for some evidence of some kind. Verification from a valid, unbiased news source that includes citation(s) would be nice.

I wouldn't even know where to begin to gather actual evidence for this. Other then people who claim such things.
To me it is more of an opinion.  

[Shearaha]

Seraphsody

Not a lot of talk about werewolves here. My fiance views himself as two-spirited in terms of being lupine. He is affected by the full moon, ... every. Month. Without fail. And it affects him differently, mostly just that he is much more intense, sexuality, rage, joy are all things that are enhanced by the full moon in him.

He is also allergic to silver, he gets a rash.

I just think it's kind of funny. Not like he grows fur and a tail, but definitely something being up is there.

I'm quoting this mainly so that it doesn't get lost in the big glitch. I'm sure that others can ask better questions.

So my big question would be does he activly track when the full moon is? Is he as you described in the days leading up to and following the full moon?  

[Kuroiban]

celticfireguardian

I wouldn't even know where to begin to gather actual evidence for this. Other then people who claim such things.
To me it is more of an opinion.

Which is kind of my point. Nuri put it best earlier...

maenad nuri

celticfireguardian

I thought this forum was more about opinion then fact. Because with this sort of thing there are not a lot of facts at hand to use.

Opinions are only as good as the facts/reasoning they rest upon.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion; I couldn't deprive you of it if I tried. However you are most definitely incorrect about the way this guild works.

It IS about fact. This guild puts logical analysis of facts, opinions, and theories as it's first and best tool.

While I believe I can say we all try to be helpful, supportive, and positive in our methodology, this is most certainly not a guild that validates an opinion simply because it's an opinion. You have to have something to back up your opinion, something that has weight and merit, otherwise it's going to be broken down and picked apart...because that's what we do.

If this seems sorta rough and abrasive...well it can be. A couple years ago I was on the receiving end of a lot of this sort of questioning of my ideas, beliefs, and opinions. What took me some time to realize was that they weren't trying to pick me and my ideas apart, they were trying to help me learn what I really believed thru logical questioning.

So when we say, "Where's your proof?" we're not trying to smack you in the face and say you're an idiot. We're asking for proof to strengthen your own position.

More on topic, less explanation...

If you're saying "I don't know how to prove this", that's a really good indication your opinion is coming from a bad place.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Seraphsody

Not a lot of talk about werewolves here. My fiance views himself as two-spirited in terms of being lupine. He is affected by the full moon, ... every. Month. Without fail. And it affects him differently, mostly just that he is much more intense, sexuality, rage, joy are all things that are enhanced by the full moon in him.

He is also allergic to silver, he gets a rash.

I just think it's kind of funny. Not like he grows fur and a tail, but definitely something being up is there.

It's possible he's just sensitive to gravity fluctuations (like tides are) and has a silver allergy (metal allergies are not uncommon)  

[Collowrath]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

The moon thing seems to be related to werewolves, but I haven't seen anything about emotionality with the changing of the tides.

My guess is that it stems from modern literature - werewolves, especially when they're involved in stories that have vampires in them as well, seem to represent a "baser" state. Where vampires have come to be cold, collected, etc, werewolves are hot tempered and passionate. That, in and of itself, probably stems from an anthropomorphization of wolves; European culture seems inclined to think of wolves as aggressive, territorial, vicious, so the authors seek to translate that into "human" emotions.

That said, Seraphsody, there are two things. The first: silver allergies aren't that uncommon. Make sure, if he wears jewelry, that it's stainless steal or some other material he won't react negatively to. smile Also, men have a monthly cycle just like the ladies, and just like with the ladies, some men are more crazy than others when that time of the month comes around. If he gets out of hand, look him in the eye, and tell him to cool it.

On the offchance he really is a "werewolf", rub him with some rye and when he protests to it, scold him sharply. His canine inclinations should clear up shortly.  

[Underworld Priestess]

Kuroiban

celticfireguardian

I wouldn't even know where to begin to gather actual evidence for this. Other then people who claim such things.
To me it is more of an opinion.

Which is kind of my point. Nuri put it best earlier...

maenad nuri

celticfireguardian

I thought this forum was more about opinion then fact. Because with this sort of thing there are not a lot of facts at hand to use.

Opinions are only as good as the facts/reasoning they rest upon.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion; I couldn't deprive you of it if I tried. However you are most definitely incorrect about the way this guild works.

It IS about fact. This guild puts logical analysis of facts, opinions, and theories as it's first and best tool.

While I believe I can say we all try to be helpful, supportive, and positive in our methodology, this is most certainly not a guild that validates an opinion simply because it's an opinion. You have to have something to back up your opinion, something that has weight and merit, otherwise it's going to be broken down and picked apart...because that's what we do.

If this seems sorta rough and abrasive...well it can be. A couple years ago I was on the receiving end of a lot of this sort of questioning of my ideas, beliefs, and opinions. What took me some time to realize was that they weren't trying to pick me and my ideas apart, they were trying to help me learn what I really believed thru logical questioning.

So when we say, "Where's your proof?" we're not trying to smack you in the face and say you're an idiot. We're asking for proof to strengthen your own position.

More on topic, less explanation...

If you're saying "I don't know how to prove this", that's a really good indication your opinion is coming from a bad place.

But not everything can be proven, it is faith based. Every religion is faith based.  

[Kuroiban]

Teh Bloody Princess

Well I think that my take on this may help because I am a Sanguinarian. Which means I am a vampire that drinks
blood.

A vampire eh?

dictionary.com

vam⋅pire
  /ˈvæmpaɪər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vam-pahyuhr]

–noun
1. a preternatural being, commonly believed to be a reanimated corpse, that is said to suck the blood of sleeping persons at night.
2. (in Eastern European folklore) a corpse, animated by an undeparted soul or demon, that periodically leaves the grave and disturbs the living, until it is exhumed and impaled or burned.
3. a person who preys ruthlessly upon others; extortionist.
4. a woman who unscrupulously exploits, ruins, or degrades the men she seduces.
5. an actress noted for her roles as an unscrupulous seductress: the vampires of the silent movies.

With that definition not matching up to you, I would happen to say you are a human who chooses to drink blood.

Teh Bloody Princess

I am very sensitive to sunlight. I almost always have to wear sunglasses or a hat to block out light. I always have been sensitive to light and because I burn very easily, so I keep up the sun screen.

That's a common situation among fairer skinned people, which your profile picture would seem to indicate you are.

Teh Bloody Princess

I can smell blood, I know many people can-it does have a distinct smell. But the difference is I get a craving for the blood when I smell it.
I think of being a vampire like being born with one less toe-you've always been that way, and you just get used to the fact that your different.

That just means you like the taste of blood, and have developed an association with the smell. That doesn't make you a vampire.

Teh Bloody Princess

And I sleep better during the day because the sun makes me tired, my body has to work to protect itself during the day but not at night.

I'm sorry if this comes off as rude, but I've met a LOT of people who claim to be vampires and it is usually just A) they're drugged up out of their mind or B) they've gotten to much a taste for the mysticism of vampires.  

[Cranium Squirrel]

Teh Bloody Princess

I am very sensitive to sunlight. I almost always have to wear sunglasses or a hat to block out light. I always have been sensitive to light and because I burn very easily, so I keep up the sun screen.

Same here, but it's more a product of the fact I have incredibly pale, fair skin. I go right from white to total lobster-burn. Nothing odd about it; most people with skin tone like me do it too. It's a product of melanin lack and not supernatural awesomeness. 3nodding

Quote:

I can smell blood, I know many people can-it does have a distinct smell. But the difference is I get a craving for the blood when I smell it.

Sounds a bit like a mental issue rather than a physical one to me, to be honest - blood isn't a product the human body is set up to digest. Usually, you get about a pint in your stomach and lose it violently. The results are spectacular and gross.

Either that or you're attempting to self-medicate (though really badly) for some sort of anemic disorder or porphyria. The body often craves what it requires, after all, and you may require components in blood. Drinking it, however, is not a physical requirement, and as pointed out above, may actually be bad for you. Consider getting tested for anemias, and getting medicated for them. It may help curb this if it isn't a purely psychological thing.

Quote:

And I sleep better during the day because the sun makes me tired, my body has to work to protect itself during the day but not at night.

I was like that from age 12 through 24. I chalked it up to standard puberty changes - teenagers actually don't sleep at night as well as adults, and require more sleep during the day as a consequence. They're often sluggish during daylight hours and more active once the sun drops. Strange but true. 3nodding  

[Kuroiban]

celticfireguardian

But not everything can be proven, it is faith based. Every religion is faith based.

While I will grant you somethings are faith based, I do not believe this is one of them. Unless, of course, you are saying that belief in otherkin is part of your faith. In which case...well...why is it part of your faith?

Faith isn't born out of coming up with an idea and simply believing in it just because you can do so. The greater majority of religions come from mystical revelations, ethical questions and philosophizing, and cognitive thought.

No sane, educated Christian would say "Lust is a sin because we said so!". They would have scripture, teachings, and philosophies which would back up such an idea...and they do. Same with (to my knowledge), every other religion and philosophy which is represented within this guild.

Heck, even Buddhism, which is hard to even DEFINE as a religion (by some definitions) has elements of it's practice and belief system explained in documents, texts, and within the confines of traditions...and they don't even (to my understanding) BELIEVE in being bound by the confines of traditions!

Using faith here is, I'm sorry to say, seems to be a cop out to me. I could be horribly wrong, but there is no religion I know of that says "People could be dragons, unicorns, and all sorts of other creatures born to human shape", and says so for a reason backed by any sort of faith based reasoning.

More to the point, you were earlier trying to cite factual elements in order to back up your statements, citing news reports and "The Science of Vampires" in this capacity.

So which is it?
Is it a matter of faith or fact?

If it's a matter of faith, why is it a matter of faith?
If it is a matter of fact, where are your facts?

EDIT: Modified for clarity and spelling  

[Cranium Squirrel]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

She's right about blood having a flavour and scent though. Kind of like clean pennies. Not altogether unpleasant.

Oh, agreed. Coppery flavour and a smell to match. It is rather nifty, though in high volume, probably one of the worst smells ever. But I think that's just nursing training kicking in. 3nodding  

[Underworld Priestess]

I don't have time to explain every thing so here is another article for you all. From http://www.otherkin.net/articles/what.html

What are Otherkin?
- Tirl Windtree

Otherkin is a collective noun for an assortment of people who have come to the somewhat unorthodox, and possibly quite bizarre, conclusion that they identify themselves as being something other than human. It is also the label used by a number of communities both on and off line. (The distinction between the two is not always drawn and can lead to some confusion).

There are a number of ways people reach this conclusion, and a number of possible explanations for it. On the face of it, it is a remarkably difficult conclusion to reach, not only is the evidence scant at best, but to define yourself as not human requires defining what human means - an exercise which philosophers for millennia have failed to complete.

The following is a brief overview of some of the possible explanations. [If someone wants to provide a piece expanding on a section, discussing the overlap and interactions between different perspectives or additional references, the submission form is here and I'll be happy to include things. -Ed]

1 - Appeal to biology
There are a very few people who claim a biological difference from humans. On the face of it this should be the easiest to prove - the biological requirements for species are fairly well defined. Life is rarely that simple and the existence of a subspecies that can occasionally interbreed with humans is at least somewhat plausible. Those that claim this tend to posit an initial technical, magical or deity intervention for the initial pairing. Thus the most frequent (if such a term can be used for such a small sample) such claims are for some form of elves (generally Tuatha de Danaan or Sidhe - for which there is some support in ancient texts), angels (for which there is some biblical support) or oriental dragons (such as the royal line of Japan claims).

To date, the variations encountered (including those unsupported claims made that were not utterly impossible) have been explainable variations and mutations of homo sapiens and unprovable without extensive DNA testing. (For which, if anyone ever volunteers an appropriate lab, there are a number of volunteers).

Those claiming such tend to expect even less belief from the general populace.

2 - Appeal to spirit
By far the most common explanation from those who fit the definition (even if they don't claim this specific label) is that whilst their physical forms may be human, their essence, soul or equivalent term is not.

Of those, the majority make their claim based on reincarnation - what they have been in a previous incarnation so strongly affects their current incarnation that they still identify with it. Obviously this requires a belief in reincarnation, and in the transmigration of souls. Both are reasonably common in a number of religions and spiritual beliefs across the world.

The less frequent explanations are "nature of soul" (where one is created as a specific entity, but failed to incarnate as such - sometimes including the "ooops! missed!" theory of incarnation), and "walk-in" (where the original spirit inhabiting a body vacated it for one reason or another - frequently near-death or severe trauma - and a separate entity took over).

Obviously this is a lot harder to prove, especially as the evidence for reincarnation itself is rather sparse (some are documented to varying degrees of veracity, such as the Dali Lama and a number of cultural mythologies). It is also more open to both intentional and unintentional abuse (see below).

People in this category sometimes (but by no means always) show signs of maladaption. The two main symptoms appear to be:

•Problems not dissimilar to trans-gender issues - discomfort with the physical form not because of gender but because of species. This seems to be more common amongst younger people. (Many of the psychological arguments for and against transgender apply here, though for the most part the biological ones do not).
•Phantom limbs - much as an amputee often gets sensation from the missing limb, so do some who claim species that have appendages that humans do not (wings and tails being the main ones). The conventional explanation for amputees is misfiring nerves and obviously this is implausible in this case. That such problems are psychosomatic seems possible, however some do have physically observable side effects that have to be handled (such as back muscle problems from 'supporting' wings).
3 - Appeal to psychology
Another explanation posited is that of using the concept of other species as a tool for self exploration. Thus one is not a member of that species, but takes on the traits of that species to learn from it. This could take the form of (at least the westernised distortion of) Totemic belief, or of Jungian Archetypes.

For the most part those using such techniques deliberately know what it is they are doing and do not claim the label. However, there are many people who have not been introduced to the concepts (or have inaccurate information if they have) and if they should find themselves in the position of having a Totem (if such can happen outside the appropriate culture) they may well mistake the effects as them being that creature rather than having an association with that archetype.

4 - Escapism and mental aberration
The vast majority of people on encountering the concept (and a fair proportion of those who subscribe to it) will favour this explanation - it's certainly the easiest one. Anyone who has actually claimed a label that fits under the 'otherkin' category has seriously considered this option (or should have).

The most frequent accusation is that all otherkin are lost in fantasy, they've played one too many D&D games and gone over the edge. Personal study seems to indicate this is actually one of the least frequent explanations. Most roleplayers know they are roleplaying, even if they are also otherkin, and roleplaying can be a very useful tool in self exploration.

Escapism from what is seen as an increasingly hostile and unpleasant culture (especially in the United States) is somewhat more plausible and more common. The irony there is that modern society is becoming increasingly magical - in what other era could you speak instantaneously with someone a thousand miles away with a simple ten digit incantation, see images from the past or distant present or rain fiery death from the skies from half a world away? The potential for being one step further than a mythological SCA is certainly there however.

Not being "like them" is a much more common cause, whether "them" is classmates, family, coworkers or everyone you meet. For some it's perhaps real - otherkin really *are* different. However the relationship is not reciprocal - being different does not make one otherkin. The alienation that many teenagers go through, both as part of normal human development and the social aberration that many high-schools seem to be, can easily have people looking for an explanation. For some it's that they are the only goth in a conservative area, others have less obvious affiliation, but take a deep interest in dragons and extrapolate.

The other side of that particular coin is looking around you and seeing the many terrible things that humanity is capable of and deciding that you are not like that and thus cannot possibly be human. (ref "behaviours - differentiation by repudiation").

There are also those for whom it is simply wish fulfillment - is being an elf not so much better than being Joe Smith who flips burgers at McDonalds?

5 - All of the above
Whilst the above explanations are presented as distinct categories, people do not necessarily fall into only one of them. There are those who claim physical differences, and past lives. There are those who are both in therapy for mental health problems and otherkin (and which is cause and which effect is debatable).

In the end, without further evidence, it comes down to a matter of personal belief. As personal beliefs go, it's relatively harmless.




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[Underworld Priestess]

Not every part of all religions has scripture and such to back it up. It's what just feels right. I mean the Bible has scriptures but that doesn't mean that they are right or that they can be backed up or used in a debate.