Pagan Manners

[wicked_faery]

those are VERY good rules to follow. ^_^  

[TeaDidikai]

wicked_faery

those are VERY good rules to follow. ^_^

wink Unless pandering to people is unethical.  

[wicked_faery]

TeaDidikai

wicked_faery

those are VERY good rules to follow. ^_^

wink Unless pandering to people is unethical.

don't u mean if it IS ethical? lol  

[TeaDidikai]

wicked_faery

TeaDidikai

wicked_faery

those are VERY good rules to follow. ^_^

wink Unless pandering to people is unethical.

don't u mean if it IS ethical? lol

No. I mean unethical.

If pandering to people's self indulgent ignorance is unethical, then following many of the rules outlined would be a violation of such.  

[wicked_faery]

TeaDidikai

wicked_faery

TeaDidikai

wicked_faery

those are VERY good rules to follow. ^_^

wink Unless pandering to people is unethical.

don't u mean if it IS ethical? lol

No. I mean unethical.

If pandering to people's self indulgent ignorance is unethical, then following many of the rules outlined would be a violation of such.

hm...we must have different deffinitions of pandering... & if we do then u lost me...if not..i'm lost anyways lol  

[WebenBanu]

TeaDidikai

Manhattan

Or try putting the phrase "The word 'gypsy' is an ethnic slur" or something more your style in your sig, since you probably want to sound forceful.

I will not. My battles are fought where they fall. I need not go looking for them.

There is certainly something to be said for addressing each situation on its own terms- correction within context can be much more informative than a general warning. However, since it is such a little known fact that the g-word is a racial slur, wouldn't it be more helpful and more considerate of the folks with whom you're dealing to let them know that it's a racial slur before they stick their foot in their mouth, offend you, and tarnish their character through use of it?^_^ Nobody wants to use racial slurs, but ignorance and habit are hard to fight without help. And if you only offer help after you've been wounded, you're much less likely to be pleasant about it, which will make the other person much less likely to accept it. I think that prior warning would make the entire situation much more functional for everyone concerned. And you could continue to issue situation specific corrections as needed.

Ultimately it's your choice, of course. I'm just saying that I think I understand your line of reasoning- it's not a pleasant subject to bring up, but this may improve matters for you and everyone else.^_^

Now, how can we alter that guideline so that it will better convey what it's trying to say? *goes back to the first page and looks*  

[WebenBanu]

The dreaded #12

12) Stop all the silliness about who is and who is not a Witch/Wiccan/Pagan and what one must do to be one. Be respectful of other's differences at gatherings.

I propose the following:

Number 12 should be split up into two, possibly three separate, yet complimentary guidelines. One of these should remind people to be honest about their lineage, and educate themselves about what they claim to be in order to determine whether that's really what they are. Another should remind people to be polite while questioning another on said lineage, and give them the benefit of the doubt if they seem to still be learning (and, if appropriate, perhaps a friendly point in the right direction). There may be a caveat to this second guideline along the lines of, "If you don't believe someone has the qualifications to be practicing a certain path or technique, you don't have to attend their rituals or magical sessions- but causing a ruckus in the Pagan community won't convince anyone that you're right, and if anything it's more likely to make the other person look like the more mature and experienced practitioner!"

So here's what I've come up with so far- please give me comments and guidelines about how it may be improved, or if you like it as it is.^_^

12a. Be honest about your lineage- both the religious and ethnic kinds. If you believe that you are something, then do some research to see if you really do fit the description. If not, find another term which fits or create your own.

12b. Be polite when questioning other members of the Pagan Community on their lineage or practices, and try to give them the benefit of the doubt- young or old, they may still be learning! If it's appropriate to your relationship with the person and the situation you find yourself in, a friendly point in the right direction may be helpful- but refrain from preaching at people.

12c. If you don't believe that a person has the qualifications to be practicing a certain path or technique, then you don't have to attend their rituals or magical sessions. But causing a scene in the Pagan community won't convince anyone that you're right- and if anything, it's more likely to make the other person look like the more mature and experienced practitioner!  

[wicked_faery]

WebenBanu

The dreaded #12

12) Stop all the silliness about who is and who is not a Witch/Wiccan/Pagan and what one must do to be one. Be respectful of other's differences at gatherings.

I propose the following:

Number 12 should be split up into two, possibly three separate, yet complimentary guidelines. One of these should remind people to be honest about their lineage, and educate themselves about what they claim to be in order to determine whether that's really what they are. Another should remind people to be polite while questioning another on said lineage, and give them the benefit of the doubt if they seem to still be learning (and, if appropriate, perhaps a friendly point in the right direction). There may be a caveat to this second guideline along the lines of, "If you don't believe someone has the qualifications to be practicing a certain path or technique, you don't have to attend their rituals or magical sessions- but causing a ruckus in the Pagan community won't convince anyone that you're right, and if anything it's more likely to make the other person look like the more mature and experienced practitioner!"

So here's what I've come up with so far- please give me comments and guidelines about how it may be improved, or if you like it as it is.^_^

12a. Be honest about your lineage- both the religious and ethnic kinds. If you believe that you are something, then do some research to see if you really do fit the description. If not, find another term which fits or create your own.

12b. Be polite when questioning other members of the Pagan Community on their lineage or practices, and try to give them the benefit of the doubt- young or old, they may still be learning! If it's appropriate to your relationship with the person and the situation you find yourself in, a friendly point in the right direction may be helpful- but refrain from preaching at people.

12c. If you don't believe that a person has the qualifications to be practicing a certain path or technique, then you don't have to attend their rituals or magical sessions. But causing a scene in the Pagan community won't convince anyone that you're right- and if anything, it's more likely to make the other person look like the more mature and experienced practitioner!

here here! nicely stated! & on top of that ppl should not put other ppl down for being wrong OR act like they themselves are correct...especially continuously.  

[Sivirs]

wicked_faery

here here! nicely stated! & on top of that ppl should not put other ppl down for being wrong OR act like they themselves are correct...especially continuously.

Oh, grow up, muffin. Drop the persecution complex, Tea's not out to get you.

Leave your issues with specific posters out of legit threads, would you? Nobody really cares about your need for attention and it's rude to derail the thread just to get some.

--

Now, as to the actual topic, I'm not so sure I'm entirely down with 12c, but my objection is more to the implied laissez-faire on letting just anyone be allowed to rep the community by doing public rituals, I'm down with not causing scenes in public (see the perfect example of that right above me). It's that fine line between letting the community police itself and turning into fascists on one end, and being tolerant of the weirder paths without letting anyone and anything in as equally valid even when it's obviously not (esp. the dangerous con people types). Tricky balance to find.

Other than that, I do like the more expanded #12 - it's getting there. a's great, and b is awful hard to stick to on a bad day but it has its merits. surprised  

[wicked_faery]

Sivirs

wicked_faery

here here! nicely stated! & on top of that ppl should not put other ppl down for being wrong OR act like they themselves are correct...especially continuously.

Oh, grow up, muffin. Drop the persecution complex, Tea's not out to get you.

Leave your issues with specific posters out of legit threads, would you? Nobody really cares about your need for attention and it's rude to derail the thread just to get some.

who mentioned any names or myself specifically? i certainly didn't u my dear person are the derailer if anyone is. i was adding to what they said.

"12b. Be polite when questioning other members of the Pagan Community on their lineage or practices, and try to give them the benefit of the doubt- young or old, they may still be learning! If it's appropriate to your relationship with the person and the situation you find yourself in, a friendly point in the right direction may be helpful- but refrain from preaching at people."  

[WebenBanu]

wicked_faery

here here! nicely stated! & on top of that ppl should not put other ppl down for being wrong OR act like they themselves are correct...especially continuously.

People generally aren't wrong on purpose, so if they're willing to honestly listen to constructive criticism then that is always the best policy.^_^ Whatever the case, taking a condescending, unhelpful attitude towards those people because they are wrong is usually more damaging to ones own character than anything else, and it doesn't exactly inspire others to view you as a source of learning.

However, as Sivirs mentioned it's not always easy to do that, and this basic consideration goes both ways.^_^ If you feel that someone is taking such an unhelpful attitude toward you, it's even more important to remain calm and polite back to them- doing otherwise will only make the situation worse, while being polite may even help to soothe the other person's anger so that you can have a more productive exchange. If that other person is trying to tell you something educational, then hear them out- don't exacerbate the situation by feeding more anger into a grudgematch, and you just might learn something.^_^ If they're just insulting you, and not imparting any information to explain their anger, then it's usually best to discretely ignore them and limit your contact with them as much as possible- their attitude will reflect more poorly on them for any who are watching, and your mature handling of the situation will reflect well on you.

Definitely, it's not easy to do, and I've certainly not perfected the technique- but I've found this to be a really good policy (developed from the writings of an ancient Egyptian sage, no less^_~).

Sivirs

Now, as to the actual topic, I'm not so sure I'm entirely down with 12c, but my objection is more to the implied laissez-faire on letting just anyone be allowed to rep the community by doing public rituals, I'm down with not causing scenes in public. It's that fine line between letting the community police itself and turning into fascists on one end, and being tolerant of the weirder paths without letting anyone and anything in as equally valid even when it's obviously not (esp. the dangerous con people types). Tricky balance to find.

Yeah, it's a tricky balance for sure, and I do not believe that representation of a religion should be an anything-goes affair. C is intended to be read in combination with b, but it got so long that I ended up giving it its own letter.^_^ My opinion, however, is that if a polite inquiry into the subject doesn't convince a group to select a more qualified ritual leader- or to adjust their claims to be more representative of their actual qualifications- and there are no channels through which the public ritual's leadership can be appealed in a polite and dignified fashion, then getting angry won't do anything at all.

Furthermore, if the confrontation becomes ugly, then it will only damage the image of that religious community even further than the original ritual would have done on its own. In addition, it will draw more attention to that ritual, and it may discredit you as the one who started and/or contributed to the fuss- making you less effective as a voice for the community on future occasions.^_^ I'm not saying that you can't or shouldn't question a person's lineage or qualifications, I'm just saying that it should be done politely- and if that doesn't work, then it's best to move on to other areas where you can accomplish something positive.

If you keep doing this, then eventually you'll build up a reputation as an individual with the community's best interests at heart, and a mature personality, and people will listen to what you have to say.

Sivirs

Other than that, I do like the more expanded #12 - it's getting there. a's great, and b is awful hard to stick to on a bad day but it has its merits. surprised

Awesome, I'm glad that you like it, and I'm grateful for the input.^_^ It looks like I need to rephrase c a bit. I know b is not the easiest thing in the world, and I usually have to go back and remind myself of it every now and then- but it's a good skill to work toward. And I have to admit, it does usually lead to a more interesting conversation.^_^  

[TeaDidikai]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[WebenBanu]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Starlock]

WebenBanu

[
12a. Be honest about your lineage- both the religious and ethnic kinds. If you believe that you are something, then do some research to see if you really do fit the description. If not, find another term which fits or create your own.

12b. Be polite when questioning other members of the Pagan Community on their lineage or practices, and try to give them the benefit of the doubt- young or old, they may still be learning! If it's appropriate to your relationship with the person and the situation you find yourself in, a friendly point in the right direction may be helpful- but refrain from preaching at people.

12c. If you don't believe that a person has the qualifications to be practicing a certain path or technique, then you don't have to attend their rituals or magical sessions. But causing a scene in the Pagan community won't convince anyone that you're right- and if anything, it's more likely to make the other person look like the more mature and experienced practitioner!

Not a bad revision, though a bit long winded. Though its true I simplified every point on that list from their original forms which were more along the length of these up here. All of that sounds pretty reasonable to me.  

[TeaDidikai]

WebenBanu

I think you're misunderstanding- a line in a sig is not the same as a tattoo. And I believe that there are some people who have basically that about the Satan and the Pentagram thing in their sig- g as a racial slur is even more obscure information than that, partially because so many folks have used such educational measures on behalf of the pentagram.^_^

Couple problems with this.

1) Those who actually will change their position based on the facts I present don't need to see it in my sig. If it comes up, it will come up and things can move on from there.

2) Those who wouldn't change because they know what it means and hate the Rroma do not need me to make myself a target.

3) My sig is a place for my personal musings and is a form of self-expression. As I am not my ethnicity and have done as much to include parts of my culture into my Gaia name, I have no interest in being defined by my ethnicity. Would you ask Reagun to have a huge chuck of his siggy saying "American Born does not make you Irish!"?

What personal insight to culture or ethnicity would you put in your sig? Or better- would you be willing to put in your sig what you are asking me to put there?

Quote:

Thanks.^_^ The response that I've gotten to the alterations so far don't suggest to me that we feel that opinions are too sacred to be questioned- I think folks were just waiting for someone to suggest how it should be rewritten.^_^ I think that the point behind the original #12 was that people were getting tired of the dramatics routine. And they are correct- while allowing false information to linger doesn't make one a good person, throwing a tantrum doesn't make one righteous or effective. As I mentioned above, not only is it rude to make a scene over someone's credentials, it's an ineffective strategy for addressing the situation. As for quietly walking away if all available routes of civil appeal have been tried and failed, I know that it's tough. But there are some things which we won't be able to change, no matter how much we rail and rant. In those cases, it makes more sense to move on to an area where we can have some positive effect than to bind ourself in one spot, accomplish nothing, and make ourselves look childish in the process.^_~ So my rewrite isn't only about being polite, although that certainly comes into play- it's also about being an effective member of the community.

The problem I am seeing at the moment is that this kind of molly coddling does not belong to everyone's path.

The more it is debated, the more I feel like likening it to those who believe that the Wiccan Rede is universal, and I think it is fair to say that not everyone is bound by the guidelines suggested- that some people would hold that being polite for the sake of protecting people's feelings and "not rocking the boat" is worse than the natural course that such a discussion would take otherwise.

"The Community" doesn't need to be united and I feel that Fluffies who are offended at a random Asatru's correction about the age of Wicca have earned any stress that comes into their life based upon their false assertions and said (sometimes blunt) correction.

And that condemning the Asatru for making said Fluffy upset is more of an insult to "The Community" then is services by them taking another tact because they might offend someone (be it the Fluffy, the non-Fluffy Friend of said Fluffy- or anyone else).