meditation

[too2sweet]

redtearsblackwings

The idea behind it is so that you're focused on Elightement rather then anything else, hece not having anything that aulters you're state of mind.

Another point that was made as well, though, is that almost any substance can alter your state of mind given the right circumstances. Chocolate comes to mind immediately, but there are others as well. Heck, just drinking water if you are dehydrated can alter your state of mind.  

[Cranium Squirrel]

Much of this is actually regulated in the vinaya pitaka, which is, I think, what we're dealing with - the rules and regs for monastics.

There is obviously knowledge there of the fact that just about anything we take in - or fail to, past a certain point - will alter the way the human mind works. Meditational sessions, as a result, tend to be scheduled accordingly. The whole point of the rules as presented is to get the human mind in a state of as close to a baseline, unaffected state as possible.

There's regulations for exactly how much and when a monk can eat, how long they're allowed to keep food (if it hasn't been eaten by the end of the midday meal, for example, it's to be tossed for animals to eat), and what kinds of drinks they're allowed to take with meals. There's even rules that involve how long you can keep a fruit juice (in order to prevent it from fermenting) - all kinds of things. Tea is considered allowable, under a medicinal ruling, but some monasteries still ban it unless you're sick due to potential for addiction to caffeine/abuse by monks.

What it seems to boil down to is intent on drinking tea - are you drinking it out of a need for caffeine, because you can't get through the day without it, because it is pleasurable, or are you drinking it simply because you need something to drink in order to function?

There is technically not a single lay follower prohibition on caffeine in any form; some attempting to be more devout may drop it in an attempt to know their mind without the additives, but as Tea pointed out (and wonderfully), the precept is against intoxicants, and technically, caffeine doesn't fall under that class. 3nodding

Edit: The other fun thing to remember here is this: There was only one monk in the Buddha's lifetime who knew and held to all of the rules of the vinaya. One. So it stands to reason similar numbers are probably true today, especially with guys like the Dalai Lama running around and drinking tea and having cookies off-time (granted, he's got medical dispensation, but still... xd )  

[redtearsblackwings]

too2sweet

redtearsblackwings

The idea behind it is so that you're focused on Elightement rather then anything else, hece not having anything that aulters you're state of mind.

Another point that was made as well, though, is that almost any substance can alter your state of mind given the right circumstances. Chocolate comes to mind immediately, but there are others as well. Heck, just drinking water if you are dehydrated can alter your state of mind.

I'm not saying that I agree with it, I'm just stating what the religion has said to me.
I've read a couple of books on the subject and met a Monk.  

[Deoridhe]

redtearsblackwings

I'm not saying that I agree with it, I'm just stating what the religion has said to me.

Religions don't talk.

Also, if you're claiming a few books and dialogue with a single person is enough to comprehend an entire religion with hundreds of years of history, you really need to rethink your standards of scholarship.  

[Cranium Squirrel]

redtearsblackwings

I'm not saying that I agree with it, I'm just stating what the religion has said to me.
I've read a couple of books on the subject and met a Monk.

Which books, by which authors? And which sect was the monk from, and from which sangha did he hail?  

[TeaDidikai]

Byaggha, do you by chance have any better translation on Surā?  

[Cranium Squirrel]

TeaDidikai

Byaggha, do you by chance have any better translation on Surā?

Lemme check my resources. I don't know that I do though. 3nodding

Okay, this is the best I've got, and it's used in a sentence. It's from the Vinaya Pitaka, the Buddhist Monastic code - the list of 10 training rules:

Surā-meraya-majja-pamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī,
* Refraining from alcohol and fermented liquors that cause heedlessness,  

[TeaDidikai]

Byaggha

TeaDidikai

Byaggha, do you by chance have any better translation on Surā?

Lemme check my resources. I don't know that I do though. 3nodding

Okay, this is the best I've got, and it's used in a sentence. It's from the Vinaya Pitaka, the Buddhist Monastic code - the list of 10 training rules:

Surā-meraya-majja-pamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī,
* Refraining from alcohol and fermented liquors that cause heedlessness,

I'm hoping to find a literal translation of it.
The only thing I can piece together based on my piss poor understanding of Pali and how it translates into English is that there may have been a form of alcohol that was made from a flour paste, and that was what was initially prohibited. sweatdrop  

[Cranium Squirrel]

TeaDidikai

I'm hoping to find a literal translation of it.
The only thing I can piece together based on my piss poor understanding of Pali and how it translates into English is that there may have been a form of alcohol that was made from a flour paste, and that was what was initially prohibited. sweatdrop

Best I've got is alcohol in general, and we lack a really good Pali-to-English in this house, so that's from Access to Insight - every time I see it crop up, it's in the same usage. Alchohol and Intoxicants.

Ah, wait, here we go - the Pali Text Society's dictionary. They're widely reknowned as one of the best Pali to English groups around. 3nodding Here's their entry on Surā:

Surā (f.) [Vedic surā] spirituous (intoxicating) liquor ("drink")

I can give you the list of references too, but I'm not sure how easy they'll be to sort out.

Vin ii.295; 301; iv.110; D i.146; A i.212, 295; It 63; J i.199, 252 (tikhiṇaŋ suraŋ yojetvā mixing a sharp drink); DhA ii.9; Dh 247; as nt. at J vi.23 (v. l. surā as gloss). -- Five kinds of surā are mentioned, viz. piṭṭha˚, pūva˚, odana˚ (odaniya˚), kiṇṇapakkhitta˚, sambhāra -- saŋyutta˚ VvA 73; VbhA 381.

Plus! Get this - suffixes to surā! Now you can say things like 'drinking house'!

-- âdhiṭṭhaka addicted to drink J v.427. -- geha a drinking house J i.302. -- ghaṭa a pitcher of liquor J iii.477. -- ghara=˚geha J v.367. -- chaṇa a drinking festival J i.489; DhA iii.100. -- dhutta a drunkard Sn 106; J i.268; iii.260. -- nakkhatta a drinking festival J 362; SnA 185. -- pāna drinking strong liquor J i.50; iv.23; VbhA 383. -- pāyikā a woman drinking liquor J v.11. -- pipāsita thirsty after strong drink S ii.110. -- pīta one who has drunk liquor J i.426. -- mada tipsiness, intoxication A iv.213; J i.352, 362. -- meraya ( -- pāna) (drinking) rum & spirits A i.261; ii.53. See also (pañca -- ) sikkhāpada. -- vitthaka bowl for drinking spirits J v.427; DhA iii.66. -- soṇḍa a drunkard DhA iii.129. -- soṇḍaka id. J v.433.

And if you want the dictionary, http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/  

[redtearsblackwings]

Byaggha

redtearsblackwings

I'm not saying that I agree with it, I'm just stating what the religion has said to me.
I've read a couple of books on the subject and met a Monk.

Which books, by which authors? And which sect was the monk from, and from which sangha did he hail?

I've read a couple from the Dela Lama. And one from a guy who studied under a Monk.
I'm not sure which sect he was from.  

[TeaDidikai]

redtearsblackwings

I've read a couple from the Dela Lama. And one from a guy who studied under a Monk.
I'm not sure which sect he was from.

What chapter and page was the prohibition against tea found?

Byaggha>> Thanks. Well, I guess there isn't anything that actually prohibits tea outside of personal opinion. Which seems fair enough.  

[redtearsblackwings]

TeaDidikai

redtearsblackwings

I've read a couple from the Dela Lama. And one from a guy who studied under a Monk.
I'm not sure which sect he was from.

What chapter and page was the prohibition against tea found?

Byaggha>> Thanks. Well, I guess there isn't anything that actually prohibits tea outside of personal opinion. Which seems fair enough.

I never read anything about TEA only about COFFEE which IS what I said.
I don't own the books I borrowed them from the libeary.
How about you go and ask the Dela Lama himself? Or would you argue with him as well?  

[Aino Ailill]

redtearsblackwings

TeaDidikai

redtearsblackwings

I've read a couple from the Dela Lama. And one from a guy who studied under a Monk.
I'm not sure which sect he was from.

What chapter and page was the prohibition against tea found?

Byaggha>> Thanks. Well, I guess there isn't anything that actually prohibits tea outside of personal opinion. Which seems fair enough.

I never read anything about TEA only about COFFEE which IS what I said.
I don't own the books I borrowed them from the libeary.
How about you go and ask the Dela Lama himself? Or would you argue with him as well?

redtearsblackwings

TeaDidikai

Byaggha

redtearsblackwings

TeaDidikai

ShadowCat>> I don't know of any religious doctrine that prohibits caffeine.

Buddhism prohibits mind alutering substance and I've known of extream Monks who don't drink coffee.

They're in the extreme. Most monks I've met will happily drink tea, caffeinated or not. 3nodding

Is there an actual scriptural position on this? Or is it like the LDS, where there is no position, but it's become part of the culture.

The idea behind it is so that you're focused on Elightement rather then anything else, hece not having anything that aulters you're state of mind.

It seemed rather as if you were referring to caffeinated substances in general, as that is what the conversation was about. If you weren't, clarification would've been helpful.  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

ShadowCat>> I don't know of any religious doctrine that prohibits caffeine.

Mormons.
Depending on how they interpret the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants, any substance that can alter your behavior or create addiction is suspect. Altho I have my own observations on the why, and they waffle 'twixt Tannic Acid and Caffeine being the devil (so to speak), in many wards, tea is just as forbidden as coffee.

As for the colour schema mentioned... I would thing Violet and Red would be opposites. As far as we can see. This being visible light spectrum, rather than pigmentation play of course.

So, on the main topic, I have been engaging with some Nichiren Buddhists who are very very fond of their chanting. It is used as a focusing aid, not just for creating mindset, but sorta for attuning oneself to Myoho (they have thus far explained this as the cosmic law of causality). I will be speaking with a more senior member this weekend for my own edification and to answer some questions.  

[Ainwyn]

Aino Ailill

redtearsblackwings

TeaDidikai

Byaggha

redtearsblackwings

TeaDidikai

ShadowCat>> I don't know of any religious doctrine that prohibits caffeine.

Buddhism prohibits mind alutering substance and I've known of extream Monks who don't drink coffee.

They're in the extreme. Most monks I've met will happily drink tea, caffeinated or not. 3nodding

Is there an actual scriptural position on this? Or is it like the LDS, where there is no position, but it's become part of the culture.

The idea behind it is so that you're focused on Elightement rather then anything else, hece not having anything that aulters you're state of mind.

It seemed rather as if you were referring to caffeinated substances in general, as that is what the conversation was about. If you weren't, clarification would've been helpful.

Actually, in the conversation you quoted, Red makes reference only to coffee, while Byaggha makes reference to tea, and Tea makes reference to caffeine in general. But since Byaggha has found for us what surā means and Tea's concluded that prohibition of tea is only a personal decision of certain monks... can we get back on meditation now? Please?

redface Were you talking about the first part of her sentence? Cuz then what you said makes much more sense. Sorry!