There has to be more

[Nines19]

TeaDidikai

ShadowCatSoul

I know who I'm dealing with.

How?

The answer to this question is relevant to a lurker's interest.  

[TeaDidikai]

Nines19

TeaDidikai

ShadowCatSoul

I know who I'm dealing with.

How?

The answer to this question is relevant to a lurker's interest.

I'm curious why "she" has taken most really.

Most of the people who seem to claim her don't really fit within her realm of interest- don't seem to maintain the standards by which it would have been acceptable to approach her in, or anything of the sort.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

I want this to be in context for you Shadow.

Bast is sometimes depicted as the hand of Ra's anger.
When you talk about her wrath, you're talking about things like her destroying humans- not her telling you to ******** off.

What myth are you referring to here?  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

What myth are you referring to here?

That depends on if we are going pre-Hellenic bastardization or not.
Then we get to pick Upper, Lower or Central Egypt, then the era. wink  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

What myth are you referring to here?

That depends on if we are going pre-Hellenic bastardization or not.
Then we get to pick Upper, Lower or Central Egypt, then the era. wink

Any pre-Hellenic myth would catch my interest. I don't think I've heard any of her actually smiting anyone, even if this is one of her titles (Eye of Ra).  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

TeaDidikai

Sophist

What myth are you referring to here?

That depends on if we are going pre-Hellenic bastardization or not.
Then we get to pick Upper, Lower or Central Egypt, then the era. wink

Any pre-Hellenic myth would catch my interest. I don't think I've heard any of her actually smiting anyone, even if this is one of her titles (Eye of Ra).

You'd have to understand the shifts in how people approached her. Naming conventions show an organic understanding wherein some aspects have later been attributed to other gods- and in some renditions actions are hers are attributed to others- such as Ra.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

TeaDidikai

Sophist

What myth are you referring to here?

That depends on if we are going pre-Hellenic bastardization or not.
Then we get to pick Upper, Lower or Central Egypt, then the era. wink

Any pre-Hellenic myth would catch my interest. I don't think I've heard any of her actually smiting anyone, even if this is one of her titles (Eye of Ra).

You'd have to understand the shifts in how people approached her. Naming conventions show an organic understanding wherein some aspects have later been attributed to other gods- and in some renditions actions are hers are attributed to others- such as Ra.

I'm not disputing that more than one goddess was an Eye of Ra, nor that some Pharaohs would claim to smite their foes in battle as Bast might have ferociously have done, but with what you said here:

Quote:

When you talk about her wrath, you're talking about things like her destroying humans ...

I thought you might have been referring to a specific myth where she actually destroys a human herself, rather than it being understood that she's entirely capable of it. I guess I'm saying I'm not clear on whether you were being literal or not.  

[TeaDidikai]

I'm being literal, in so far as there is illusion to it and that the historic references to her merge and separate her from other deities, as is evidenced by historical naming conventions and cult status- especially amongst Lower Egypt where at times she wasn't viewed as the distinct Bast that we might think of, but as a hybred between Mut, Sekhmet and others.

Within these myths we see her slaughtering humans. In similar positions, she is the one who slayed Apep, as Ra's agent.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

I'm being literal, in so far as there is illusion to it and that the historic references to her merge and separate her from other deities, as is evidenced by historical naming conventions and cult status- especially amongst Lower Egypt where at times she wasn't viewed as the distinct Bast that we might think of, but as a hybred between Mut, Sekhmet and others.

Within these myths we see her slaughtering humans. In similar positions, she is the one who slayed Apep, as Ra's agent.

I think it depends on the attitude toward syncretism. For me I consider the deities as themselves unless they specifically merge together for an allotted amount of time, or purpose (such as praise or entreaties by her devotees). But this would probably be erroneous in an Egyptian perspective. They would have been sole deities and merged at the same time, allowing for a polyvalent understanding. It's just that when I think of Sekhmet killing people and drinking their blood, I only ever think of her as Sekhmet doing it, not necessarily Sekhmet-Mut. Similarly I would not attribute the killing of people to Bast if Sekhmet had done it, even if they are associated with each other.

There was an argument that I recently came across that says there were basic archetypes of Egyptian gods, and that Mut, Sekhmet, Bast, and Tefnut would have fallen under the archetype "female deity." I don't know if I can attest to its veracity, but it would clear things up a bit.

I didn't think of the second one, however, and I'm curious to see whether Ra specifically takes on the form of Bast, or of simply a cat. I'll have to look it up.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

TeaDidikai

I'm being literal, in so far as there is illusion to it and that the historic references to her merge and separate her from other deities, as is evidenced by historical naming conventions and cult status- especially amongst Lower Egypt where at times she wasn't viewed as the distinct Bast that we might think of, but as a hybred between Mut, Sekhmet and others.

Within these myths we see her slaughtering humans. In similar positions, she is the one who slayed Apep, as Ra's agent.

I think it depends on the attitude toward syncretism. For me I consider the deities as themselves unless they specifically merge together for an allotted amount of time, or purpose (such as praise or entreaties by her devotees). But this would probably be erroneous in an Egyptian perspective. They would have been sole deities and merged at the same time, allowing for a polyvalent understanding. It's just that when I think of Sekhmet killing people and drinking their blood, I only ever think of her as Sekhmet doing it, not necessarily Sekhmet-Mut. Similarly I would not attribute the killing of people to Bast if Sekhmet had done it, even if they are associated with each other.

There was an argument that I recently came across that says there were basic archetypes of Egyptian gods, and that Mut, Sekhmet, Bast, and Tefnut would have fallen under the archetype "female deity." I don't know if I can attest to its veracity, but it would clear things up a bit.

I didn't think of the second one, however, and I'm curious to see whether Ra specifically takes on the form of Bast, or of simply a cat. I'll have to look it up.

Part of this is also coming through the filter of Modern European theology- and some of the historical doctuments have of course been Hellenized. And we all know how crazy those Greeks were. ninja

When you look at the relationship between Lower Egypt and Female-Feline deities, the inscriptions of names suggest that they were one being, and attributed different naming conventions based on form. For example, the complete feline form was named differently than the feline-headed form, which varied depending on what kind of feline was being depicted.

I mean, we have to take into account the shifts in attitudes as Lower and Upper Egypt were unified in the Early Dynastic Period.

We have early depictions of her with the name as we are familiar with it attributed to a lion-headed goddess.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Part of this is also coming through the filter of Modern European theology- and some of the historical doctuments have of course been Hellenized. And we all know how crazy those Greeks were. ninja

Edit to previous post: I said female archetype but I meant feline, but I think you understood that.

It does perturb me somewhat, for example, when I see people refer to Isis as a peaceful mommy goddess. confused I mean yes, she did have a son but so did Sekhmet and you don't ever mistake her for being the happy-fluffy type. If anything Aset was more of a Great-of-Magic funerary/Pharaohnic retinue deity.

Quote:

When you look at the relationship between Lower Egypt and Female-Feline deities, the inscriptions of names suggest that they were one being, and attributed different naming conventions based on form. For example, the complete feline form was named differently than the feline-headed form, which varied depending on what kind of feline was being depicted.

The names differed? I didn't know that. Do you have a link for me? And do you mean names or did the titles differ?

Quote:

I mean, we have to take into account the shifts in attitudes as Lower and Upper Egypt were unified in the Early Dynastic Period.

We have early depictions of her with the name as we are familiar with it attributed to a lion-headed goddess.

Yes, I've read that she was depicted as a lion until around the Second Dynasty. (though I have yet to verify this) That's what makes me think that there were the feline archetypes...but at the same time the associations were different. Bast and Sekhmet were both known for their capability of ferocity, but Tefnut is a moisture deity. Yet all of them are Eyes of Ra. It's something to ponder further on. 3nodding

Sorry for being OT. sweatdrop Though I think the OP might benefit from this discussion as well.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

The names differed? I didn't know that. Do you have a link for me? And do you mean names or did the titles differ?

Sorry, pulling from archeology course notes, so no links.

One thing you can look into was the practice of transcribing names as being hyphenated and forms that are diminutive.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

The names differed? I didn't know that. Do you have a link for me? And do you mean names or did the titles differ?

Sorry, pulling from archeology course notes, so no links.

One thing you can look into was the practice of transcribing names as being hyphenated and forms that are diminutive.

Oh, are you talking about the difference between Bast and Bastet?  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

TeaDidikai

Sophist

The names differed? I didn't know that. Do you have a link for me? And do you mean names or did the titles differ?

Sorry, pulling from archeology course notes, so no links.

One thing you can look into was the practice of transcribing names as being hyphenated and forms that are diminutive.

Oh, are you talking about the difference between Bast and Bastet?

That's just one of the examples.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

TeaDidikai

Sophist

The names differed? I didn't know that. Do you have a link for me? And do you mean names or did the titles differ?

Sorry, pulling from archeology course notes, so no links.

One thing you can look into was the practice of transcribing names as being hyphenated and forms that are diminutive.

Oh, are you talking about the difference between Bast and Bastet?

That's just one of the examples.

I'm assuming when you say hyphenated forms you're talking about syncretization. I was under the impression that the extra -et hieroglyphic symbol denoted a feminine form rather than diminutive, although I have heard your argument as well.