Symbols

[Collowrath]

Kashaku-Tatsu

btw hun, great job at wiki'ing, maybe ya should read further XD

Never assume familiarity.

Btw, you were the one who said the sun cross was "conveniently found in christianity [sic]". I worked off your own words and foreknowledge of a number of my own religious symbols that are similar and were adopted in similar and recontextualized ways and my own knowledge of the Germanic "sun cross."

That doesn't really address my post, however.

EDIT: this only really applies if it was meant for me. xp I assumed so because it was directly after my own post.  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

that was not for u btw ...


and so you're assuming it's ok for them to do it to a pagan symbol with one alteration (lengthening a side), but something that has been around for a long time as one addition differentials (wings versus no wings) is not alright...  

[Collowrath]

Of course, that's what I get for assuming. The statement about familiarity stands though. Some of us come from cultures that are not egalitarian at all and can be very uncomfortable when addressed in such a way.

I think Tea is handling the mistranslation pretty well. :/  

[Nines19]

Kashaku-Tatsu

and so you're assuming it's ok for them to do it to a pagan symbol with one alteration (lengthening a side), but something that has been around for a long time as one addition differentials (wings versus no wings) is not alright...

It's not like the Christians who came up with the cross as a symbol for the religion just looked at an equal-armed cross one day and willy-nilly said, "We like this, let's just lengthen this side and use it."
It's kind of how the chief figure of the religion allegedly died.

There's a hell of a lot of difference between a snake and a dragon besides just "wings versus no wings". Calling a snake a dragon because it suits you is also a hell of a lot different than using a symbol in one context that also exists slightly different in another context and not claiming it to be the same symbol with the same meaning.  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

Nines19

There's a hell of a lot of difference between a snake and a dragon besides just "wings versus no wings". Calling a snake a dragon because it suits you is also a hell of a lot different than using a symbol in one context that also exists slightly different in another context and not claiming it to be the same symbol with the same meaning.

obviously ... was a point of making. We're not arguing that a dragon is a snake but images of ouroborous be depicted in art, symbol of alchemy and other places as both a snake and dragon. I've seen both, I know alchemists, and hell they don't even take offense with their own symbol.

and tea, no need to get all butt hurt over an expression used to show I'm not getting mad or overheated on a topic lol. Or get upset cause I make a point I that you have done nothing to prove right, that it's ok for another religion to alter a symbol and have it be accepted, and somewhere years ago the alchemy symbol was altered and both versions are accepted by everyone who is of the path that symbol comes from. lol  

[Collowrath]

Kashaku-Tatsu

and tea, no need to get all butt hurt over an expression used to show I'm not getting mad or overheated on a topic lol.

...

This guild is not monocultural. There are a number of people here who belong to groups of people wherein using a diminutive term like "hun" is used specifically in a situation such as this in order to assert authority and to belittle.

You might as well have just said "hey, c**t."

Essentially, in a place like this, it's best to air on the side of caution and refer to people by their usernames. That's all.

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Or get upset cause I make a point I that you have done nothing to prove right, that it's ok for another religion to alter a symbol and have it be accepted, and somewhere years ago the alchemy symbol was altered and both versions are accepted by everyone who is of the path that symbol comes from. lol

The symbol isn't alchemical in origin. It is also described in ancient Greece - as a snake. It very well couldn't swallow itself perpetually if it had wings to get in the way.

Also, I don't think anyone's upset about the ouroboros.  

[rmcdra]

The ourborous is a serpent. The serpent represents wisdom. It is a symbol I often see in my path since it is used by some gnostic sects. By calling the serpent in the orboros a dragon, it destroys the hidden meaning behind the symbol and makes the symbol mean something different from it's original intended meaning.  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

Collowrath

Essentially, in a place like this, it's best to air on the side of caution and refer to people by their usernames. That's all.

I can see your point, but even in a business situation I'd rather people call me hun, sweety, deary (or other us terms commonly used with women, hell I'd take b***h with a laugh and witty come back). when they get ahold of my business card and call be by my birth name (both first and last) insanely pisses me off and I can't hold much demeanor after that ... ok fine when I get an extra 500$ that doesn't get put into my modified car, art supplies, ritual restocks, herbs or organic food I can change my name to stop that... but doesn't stop that offense from hitting me when I see the biz cards my company gave me to put in the office. And when Dori kept using sn's people kept assuming he was being combative when he wasn't (and trust he was being respectful, he is much more caustic when he doesn't care about rules of a place), so I used a softer term to lessen the tone of the over all post.

When we describe the different symbols we tell our students it's the alchemy symbol for rebirth, we never claimed to be Hellenic Recons. So in the context of it being a dragon to alchemists and us sayin it's the alchemy symbol and adorning my alchemy journal, it's still within proper context. If I claimed to be a Hellenic Recon or even any form of Hellenic I could see your beef, but we use the alchemy symbol. Physiologically snakes swallow things with much more than wings in the way so there isn't much to stretch to see a dragon devouring itself wings and all.

I could've gone on a butthurt rant about the five wounds of christ being associated with a pagan symbol but I kept that peeve to myself and let it go. There are a few more peeves I have like that which I suppress for the sake of those followers in here. Like I've said a few times if one religion can adapt use of another religion's icons and it be right, how can you be elitist and say it's not ok for a path to do the same. If there are carvings from a few hundred years ago that depict the symbol a certain way, and it's still used in that way, it'd be the same thing.

I usually leave a group/chat/area when I find followers of Yeshua because of that kind of double standard when dealing with any aspect of religion comparison, etc. The only reason I stayed is because I find the antics mildly amusing while I'm at work. lol  

[rmcdra]

@Kashaku-Tatsu

Could you please show me how the pentagram is exclusively a pagan symbol and that Christianity stole it?

Why call an ouborous a dragon when the word means serpent and a dragon is not a serpent? I'm actually curious about this. Why not call this new symbol that uses a dragon something else?

Which followers of Yeshua here have set a double standard when dealing with any aspect of religion comparison, etc.? What antics have the followers of Yeshua displayed?  

[rmcdra]

TeaDidikai

rmcdra

Yeah there's a lot in my tradition that I am completely oblivious of just because there's so much.

Well... and really, who knows how old that tradition is?

Yeah really. New Advent suggests that it predates Christianity. Many gnostics that don't want to be associated with Christianity share this view along with Christians that don't want to claim that the Gnostics were a part of their history. Oddly enough my tradition teaches that gnosticism predates all religions but I think that is to reinforce some of the mythology and to explain gnosis that might be similar to ours own within other systems. The verse used to justify this stance is

Matthew 5:45

45...He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

The sun and the rain being interpreted as the gnosis that is available to all who wish to seek it. The use of the nature as a description of gnosis is a seen as a subtle way of stating that gnosis is something natural available to all people.  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

rmcdra

Why call an ouborous a dragon when the word means serpent and a dragon is not a serpent?

"this is why ...(yes i know it's a bunch of sites, but eh, I'm at work)

Ouroboros is an ancient alchemy symbol depicting a snake or dragon [DNA] swallowing its own tail, constantly creating itself and forming a circle. It is the Wheel of Time - The Alchemy Wheel - 12 Around 1 to manifest grid programs that give the illusion of linear time allowing souls to experience emotions. (http://www.crystalinks.com/ouroboros.html)

Oroborus / Tail-Biter
Return to the Egyptian Page
Return to the African Page

Region: Egypt, Africa
Time Period: Unknown
References in Literature: None
Sources: China and Japan, pg 53

Notes:
Circles the earth and bites his own tail
Symbol of Eternity
Osiris, through the Nile connection, has been linked as Ouroborus.

More on Orborus under Types of Dragons.(from the serene dragon)

(next few snips from http://www.geocities.com/bweatherby/bw_symbols.html)
The origin of the symbol is unclear. Some trace it to Neolithic cultures, and the seventh century writer Horopollon stated that the Egyptians used the ouroboros to illustrate their concept of the universe--eternity and immortality (Shepard 1232)....
The Gnostic text Pistis Sophia states that the sun disk was imagined as a great dragon with its tail in its mouth, an image also featured on Gnostic gems (Walker 268-9)...
Sometimes two creatures, the top one a winged dragon standing for volatility, were depicted swallowing each other (Biedermann Dictionary 363). Occasionally, the symbol consisted of two long-necked birds (Becker 316)....
Furthermore, the ouroboros is related to the dragon, a common symbol of beginnings and ends--and in Semitic and Indo-European myths, the primordial chaos that must be overcome to create life and order (Moon 132).


(hmmm would appear only the name ouroborus is the only part of him that originated in greece.... I see many places where he's called a serpent, but just as many where he's called a dragon, hell even one states long necked birds....)

Like this part would matter to anyone, but I have a metal worker friend who practices alchemy and uses the dragon image as ouroborus and calls it such. He and his wife recognized my cg image of him and were happy with it calling it Ouroborus.

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Why not call this new symbol that uses a dragon something else?

Because I have not seen another term for it, even in dragon form. It's still ouroborus by the users before me and besides me. I could call it "tail devourer" but that is what the name means, all hell I'll try to find a way to get a sumerian translation for it to appease everyone teehee. We use the symbol to represent brith/death/rebirth, eternity, cycles.... just as the other groups use it as lol.

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Could you please show me how the pentagram is exclusively a pagan symbol and that Christianity stole it?

I have yet to see the pentagram (even in a sunday school i was sent to weekly) depicting anything other than pagan, It was there I learned that the X in Xian was a symbol of christ so that point changed my pov that it was an anti-christian way of saying christian. moot point, I've seen the swastika, the cross with a circle, etc used but never until now a pentagram.If there is a christian use for it before pagan then I would like to see it and I'll conceede that it's use is found in both legitimately.

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Which followers of Yeshua here have set a double standard when dealing with any aspect of religion comparison, etc.? What antics have the followers of Yeshua displayed?

You'd have to see my previous dealings in here or in other forums/RL situations. Usually I save myself the headache and just leave when I see anything judeo-christian mentioned, yes I know this is a personal issue steming from one too many bad situations (family included).

The double standard I find funny in this thread is that it's perfectly fine for this to be absorbed into this and it be fine for common use... but to find a version of ouroborus that's this instead of this is somehow mortally wrong. (lmao this is actually eating up down time at work lol not bored tonight lol)  

[Collowrath]

Kashaku-Tatsu

Very long posts.

Eh, it's a cultural difference. In general, I find it people can be very comfortable with that kind of familiarity. But then, I was raised by people who insist that even people close to us are referred to as Mr. or Mrs.

It can make me pretty uncomfortable to be referred to as hun, sweetie, etc, by someone I'm entirely unfamiliar with because at least from my perspective, that puts them in a place of authority - a place they really aren't in. If it's someone I've been chatting with for a while, it's not such a big deal, but the first time you meet someone? pretty uncomfortable.

I used an "unforgivable" word for it because unlike a more playful word, the assumed familiarity can often come with a lot of venom, especially on a forum. Usually when I see people use it, it's so they can disarm the other person's argument by making them look ridiculous and overly defensive.

As far as the symbol itself goes, I think the big difference here is that the sun cross has been recontextualized - it means something entirely different within Christendom, but it is a native symbol with a similar aesthetic to the other Christian one. The ouroboros in this case is being changed to fit Western imagery, and is removing a layer of the symbolism, but still referring to it in the same way.

*shrug*  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

Collowrath

I used an "unforgivable" word for it because unlike a more playful word, the assumed familiarity can often come with a lot of venom, especially on a forum.

Understood, and I did like your choice of words lol ... but I've gotten nothing but venom (from a few) even if I say something upbeat and not directed to anyone at all... so half about to give up on niceties all together. *shrugs* then again it's bout time for me to get off work and into bed, kinda bout to lean to crabby in a few lol.

Like I said, I can make up a completely new word for it once I can go through some sumerian texts I picked up when finding a word source for a term for our path and find some kind of sumerian translation for 'tail eater' (being that I wouldn't know what else to call that symbol) then inform all the people I know who use the symbol, but I doubt it'll catch on....  

[Collowrath]

Kashaku-Tatsu

Collowrath

I used an "unforgivable" word for it because unlike a more playful word, the assumed familiarity can often come with a lot of venom, especially on a forum.

Understood, and I did like your choice of words lol ... but I've gotten nothing but venom (from a few) even if I say something upbeat and not directed to anyone at all... so half about to give up on niceties all together. *shrugs* then again it's bout time for me to get off work and into bed, kinda bout to lean to crabby in a few lol.

Generally the people here aren't actively trying to be nasty, but sometimes the directness or bluntness can ride the line of rude. :/ Generally I just avoid posting if it gets to looking like people might start really fighting - but then I just can't help myself all the time.

Quote:

Like I said, I can make up a completely new word for it once I can go through some sumerian texts I picked up when finding a word source for a term for our path and find some kind of sumerian translation for 'tail eater' (being that I wouldn't know what else to call that symbol) then inform all the people I know who use the symbol, but I doubt it'll catch on....

That's what the Greeks did, for all intents and purposes. smile  

[rmcdra]

Kashaku-Tatsu

"this is why ...(yes i know it's a bunch of sites, but eh, I'm at work)

Ouroboros is an ancient alchemy symbol depicting a snake or dragon [DNA] swallowing its own tail, constantly creating itself and forming a circle. It is the Wheel of Time - The Alchemy Wheel - 12 Around 1 to manifest grid programs that give the illusion of linear time allowing souls to experience emotions. (http://www.crystalinks.com/ouroboros.html)

Oroborus / Tail-Biter
Return to the Egyptian Page
Return to the African Page

Region: Egypt, Africa
Time Period: Unknown
References in Literature: None
Sources: China and Japan, pg 53

Notes:
Circles the earth and bites his own tail
Symbol of Eternity
Osiris, through the Nile connection, has been linked as Ouroborus.

More on Orborus under Types of Dragons.(from the serene dragon)

(next few snips from http://www.geocities.com/bweatherby/bw_symbols.html)
The origin of the symbol is unclear. Some trace it to Neolithic cultures, and the seventh century writer Horopollon stated that the Egyptians used the ouroboros to illustrate their concept of the universe--eternity and immortality (Shepard 1232)....
The Gnostic text Pistis Sophia states that the sun disk was imagined as a great dragon with its tail in its mouth, an image also featured on Gnostic gems (Walker 268-9)...
Sometimes two creatures, the top one a winged dragon standing for volatility, were depicted swallowing each other (Biedermann Dictionary 363). Occasionally, the symbol consisted of two long-necked birds (Becker 316)....
Furthermore, the ouroboros is related to the dragon, a common symbol of beginnings and ends--and in Semitic and Indo-European myths, the primordial chaos that must be overcome to create life and order (Moon 132).


(hmmm would appear only the name ouroborus is the only part of him that originated in greece.... I see many places where he's called a serpent, but just as many where he's called a dragon, hell even one states long necked birds....)

Like this part would matter to anyone, but I have a metal worker friend who practices alchemy and uses the dragon image as ouroborus and calls it such. He and his wife recognized my cg image of him and were happy with it calling it Ouroborus.

Part of my issue with you calling the serpent a dragon isn't because I'm offended. It's just that when a symbol is changed, archetype that symbol represented is changed too thus changing the meaning of the symbol. Basically the serpent represents a specific concept. Since a dragon is not a serpent how can that concept be preserved unless of course you are going for a different meaning than what the symbol originally meant?

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Because I have not seen another term for it, even in dragon form. It's still ouroborus by the users before me and besides me. I could call it "tail devourer" but that is what the name means, all hell I'll try to find a way to get a sumerian translation for it to appease everyone teehee. We use the symbol to represent brith/death/rebirth, eternity, cycles.... just as the other groups use it as lol.

Okay

Quote:

I have yet to see the pentagram (even in a sunday school i was sent to weekly) depicting anything other than pagan, It was there I learned that the X in Xian was a symbol of christ so that point changed my pov that it was an anti-christian way of saying christian. moot point, I've seen the swastika, the cross with a circle, etc used but never until now a pentagram.If there is a christian use for it before pagan then I would like to see it and I'll conceede that it's use is found in both legitimately.

That is an argument from ignorance but regardless in the middle ages, the pentagram was used a ward to prevent spell and hexes because it represented the five wounds of Christ. It wasn't until the 20th cen. that it stopped being used my most churches because of its connection of usage in Ceremonial Magic. History of the Pentagram

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You'd have to see my previous dealings in here or in other forums/RL situations. Usually I save myself the headache and just leave when I see anything judeo-christian mentioned, yes I know this is a personal issue steming from one too many bad situations (family included).

I hope you can eventually overcome this issue. I'll try not to be a d**k. It's one of my curses I'm learning to overcome.

Quote:

The double standard I find funny in this thread is that it's perfectly fine for this to be absorbed into this and it be fine for common use... but to find a version of ouroborus that's this instead of this is somehow mortally wrong. (lmao this is actually eating up down time at work lol not bored tonight lol)

The difference between the crosses is context. One is an astrological symbol representing the earth. The other represent a critical concept in Christianity. The same symbol can have different meanings within different religions or magic systems. Example the symbols for the planets in astrology have a chemical meaning in alchemy.

With the other pictures there are two different symbols being claiming to be of the same concept. The problem lies in what archetype a dragon represents and what archetype a serpent represents. Most of us here see these as two very distinct archetypes conveying two distinct concepts. I would like to know why you personally see these archetypes as conveying the same concept. I have an idea in my head about how you could justify it but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it first.