Birth control.

[Priestley]

`apple dumpling

Priestley

`apple dumpling

Priestley

Matt Pniewski

Priestley

It's irresponsible to procreate now?

I argue that the only irresponsible thing is not accepting the consequences of one's actions.

So is not taking the necessary precautions.

Assuming that precautions are always necessary.

When wouldn't those precautions be necessary? Only when a couple wanted a child, in which case they wouldn't be complaining about having one.

Precautions are used only to escape negatively perceived consequences, be those consequences giving/receiving sexually transmitted diseases and/or the inconvenience of getting pregnant. To me, the only valid reason for the condom is to reduce the risk of unknown spreading of STDs. The other consequences are just the inevitability of procreation which isn't inherantly sinful.

Since the drive to have sex is natural and powerful and is how procreation is stimulated, why should responsibility be so forcefully applied to it when we do not expect the same of animals? Just because we are humans, Christians, does not mean we should suddenly call the drive to reproduce a bad thing, nor get on people's cases for them having sex while being completely unprepared for the consequences: raising children. How many first time parents can say they were fully prepared to become parents, or that they fully understood what it was going to entail? One does what one can in the circumstances, just like animals depend on the hormones coursing through their bodies to give birth to and raise their offspring.

Fortunately, one of the characteristics that we have is the ability to prevent ourselves doing harm. Sure, condoms prevent STDs but, if one knows one has an STD, one must consider whether it's even wise to be participating in such a risky activity at all, let alone using a condom.

With all these options to protect against pregnancy, I find it really irresponsible to have an unwanted pregnancy. There's really no excuse as protecting your body is part of being sexually active. If someone is not mature enough to understand that, then they probably shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

Unwanted pregnancy need not be synonymous with sexual irresponisibility. I suppose that is the point I've been trying to get across all along. I know I wouldn't want someone lecturing me about my irresponsibility if I were to get a woman pregnant, especially when I've made it clear that I would be doing everything I could to support both the child and the mother of my child. If I was a woman, I'd not want to hear how stupid it was of me to let my body do what it is meant to do, so I choose not to call these people irresponsible.

I suppose your issue is with those who choose abortion to escape the consequences. I don't like that either but it should still be an option available to women. Even then, that still displays some kind of responsibility of taking control of the situation. The key is teaching acceptance of consequence and providing a stable support structure for the parties involved. I guarantee that would tackle the main issue of irresponsibility.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

Priestley

`apple dumpling

I think it's irresponsible to allow yourself to become pregnant when there are safe and effective means of preventing it all together.

It's irresponsible to procreate now?

I argue that the only irresponsible thing is not accepting the consequences of one's actions.

I'm with you on that one. if you have sex without protection and you concieve you should take responsimility for the child you brought into being.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

Priestley

Lazarus The Resurected

i think this issue as it realy is only vaguely discussed in the bible should be left up to the person in control of the body.

You're right. The Bible does not tackle the issue with any degree of certainty.

This creates a problem. In the absence of clear commandments about contraception, those Christians who yearn for a higher authority would rather seek inferences from scripture relating to a broader/different context (e.g. sex, marriage, adultery, the time of Adam, the time of Moses, the time of Jesus) to find that authority (God's will) rather than take the initiative by judging the possible physical and moral consequences of using contraception and acting on the best judgement. This is then what is used as an argument from Christians against contraception.

When i was (making an attempt at) Practicing Christianity, i found that unless there was a clear cut comandment against and action, one would have to draw thier own conclusions. The religious leaders who have delved through the bible to find these examples that you have mentioned are on the right path but to preach it to anyone else is wrong to me. i think any Christian struggleing with a moral issue that is not directly black and white in scripture should look into the surrounding subject matter for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

in the end you will either decide to acvcept or reject what your pastor/priest tells you you may as well make an informed descision.  

[`apple dumpling]

Priestley

`apple dumpling

Priestley

`apple dumpling

Priestley

Assuming that precautions are always necessary.

When wouldn't those precautions be necessary? Only when a couple wanted a child, in which case they wouldn't be complaining about having one.

Precautions are used only to escape negatively perceived consequences, be those consequences giving/receiving sexually transmitted diseases and/or the inconvenience of getting pregnant. To me, the only valid reason for the condom is to reduce the risk of unknown spreading of STDs. The other consequences are just the inevitability of procreation which isn't inherantly sinful.

Since the drive to have sex is natural and powerful and is how procreation is stimulated, why should responsibility be so forcefully applied to it when we do not expect the same of animals? Just because we are humans, Christians, does not mean we should suddenly call the drive to reproduce a bad thing, nor get on people's cases for them having sex while being completely unprepared for the consequences: raising children. How many first time parents can say they were fully prepared to become parents, or that they fully understood what it was going to entail? One does what one can in the circumstances, just like animals depend on the hormones coursing through their bodies to give birth to and raise their offspring.

Fortunately, one of the characteristics that we have is the ability to prevent ourselves doing harm. Sure, condoms prevent STDs but, if one knows one has an STD, one must consider whether it's even wise to be participating in such a risky activity at all, let alone using a condom.

With all these options to protect against pregnancy, I find it really irresponsible to have an unwanted pregnancy. There's really no excuse as protecting your body is part of being sexually active. If someone is not mature enough to understand that, then they probably shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

Unwanted pregnancy need not be synonymous with sexual irresponisibility. I suppose that is the point I've been trying to get across all along. I know I wouldn't want someone lecturing me about my irresponsibility if I were to get a woman pregnant, especially when I've made it clear that I would be doing everything I could to support both the child and the mother of my child. If I was a woman, I'd not want to hear how stupid it was of me to let my body do what it is meant to do, so I choose not to call these people irresponsible.

I suppose your issue is with those who choose abortion to escape the consequences. I don't like that either but it should still be an option available to women. Even then, that still displays some kind of responsibility of taking control of the situation. The key is teaching acceptance of consequence and providing a stable support structure for the parties involved. I guarantee that would tackle the main issue of irresponsibility.

I don't think an unwanted pregnancy and sexual irresponsibility are mutually exclusive. Birth control fails, it's a known fact. As I said, my big gripe is people who simply don't take the precautions. If you slip up and don't use a condom or miss a pill, you should go get Plan B. In the long run, it's cheaper than a pregnancy or an abortion. With all the different options, I don't see any excuse to not use protection.

That being said, if I knew someone who had an unwanted pregnancy due to having unprotected sex, I wouldn't be harping on them about being irresponsible. I think the pregnancy in and of itself is usually a wake up call about protecting your body. I would do my best to support them and be helpful to them. What's done is done so I don't see a point to telling them how irresponsible they were. On the other hand though, if I had a friend who I found out was having unprotected sex regularly, I would probably urge them to go buy some condoms and do my best to keep them out of a situation like that.

On the subject of abortion, I agree is should be an option that is kept open. In some situations I think an abortion is potentially the best choice for the mother, but I think it should always be a last option. All other options should be considered before having an abortion.

As I said, my biggest gripe is people who simply don't use protection when there's so many options to choose from.  

[Priestley]

`apple dumpling

As I said, my biggest gripe is people who simply don't use protection when there's so many options to choose from.

It's ignorance to say that pregnancy is somehow forgivable just because the use of any contraception suggests that pregnancy is unintentional. Only condoms used properly are anywhere close to 100% effective. There is still a chance that people will get pregnant even using two forms of contraception. This seems to be something you've overlooked.

Incidentally, this is why sexual education is important. Take one look at the shows over here where students are taught how to put on a condom by demonstrating on a d***o. It's both laughable and depressing how many break, or are put on inside out, or are removed and put back on.

Because of this, I think it's a double-standard to be forgiving of people who get pregnant while using contraception and unforgiving of people who get pregnant without it, since most pregnancies while using contraception are either due to the contraception being less than 100% effective by nature or by its misuse. One must be either unforgiving of their ignorance/stupidity about contraception and unforgiving of people who don't use it, or forgiving of both. I'd rather be forgiving of both because I too would want to be forgiven if ever I was in a situation where I got my partner pregnant at an inconvenient time.

An unwanted pregnancy need not be an unwanted child.  

[`apple dumpling]

Priestley

`apple dumpling

As I said, my biggest gripe is people who simply don't use protection when there's so many options to choose from.

It's ignorance to say that pregnancy is somehow forgivable just because the use of any contraception suggests that pregnancy is unintentional. Only condoms used properly are anywhere close to 100% effective. There is still a chance that people will get pregnant even using two forms of contraception. This seems to be something you've overlooked.

I actually said multiple times that I don't begrudge people who use protection and then get pregnant anyway. I'm fully aware no form of birth control is 100% effective.

Priestley

Incidentally, this is why sexual education is important. Take one look at the shows over here where students are taught how to put on a condom by demonstrating on a d***o. It's both laughable and depressing how many break, or are put on inside out, or are removed and put back on.

I agree. And, in general, I think we need better sexual health education, but that's kind of beside the point.

Priestley

Because of this, I think it's a double-standard to be forgiving of people who get pregnant while using contraception and unforgiving of people who get pregnant without it, since most pregnancies while using contraception are either due to the contraception being less than 100% effective by nature or by its misuse. One must be either unforgiving of their ignorance/stupidity about contraception and unforgiving of people who don't use it, or forgiving of both. I'd rather be forgiving of both because I too would want to be forgiven if ever I was in a situation where I got my partner pregnant at an inconvenient time.

An unwanted pregnancy need not be an unwanted child.

I never said we shouldn't be forgiving of both. As I explain, I wouldn't hold it against them if it happened, because what's done is done. Chances are if someone is dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, they're already under enough stress. I would never think of adding to that by calling them irresponsible. I wouldn't begrudge it of them, I would help them look over their options and help them figure out what option was best suited to them. But if I found out someone was not using birth control, I would urge them to. It's just a matter of being sexual responsible. Get birth control and learn to use it properly.  

[Priestley]

`apple dumpling

But if I found out someone was not using birth control, I would urge them to. It's just a matter of being sexual responsible. Get birth control and learn to use it properly.

I appreciate that your intentions are good and your motives loving. I understand that the words "I don't want to get pregnant" prompt your conscience to inform those people about the various birth control options out there, but "I don't want to get pregnant" doesn't mean "I won't let myself get pregnant" or "I won't get someone pregnant", or simply "I don't care either way. If it happens, it happens".

I think the main issue I have with the term "irresponsible" with regard to sex is that it needs a lot of qualification and justification, since it's a natural process. What does responsibility with regard to sex actually entail? Is it defined by the responsibility of the act and/or the consequences? Is it defined by the intent or lack thereof? I would surely demand justification for the use of the term if someone called me irresponsible, so I would do the same for others who were in that situation.  

[Priestley]

`apple dumpling

Priestley

`apple dumpling

As I said, my biggest gripe is people who simply don't use protection when there's so many options to choose from.

It's ignorance to say that pregnancy is somehow forgivable just because the use of any contraception suggests that pregnancy is unintentional. Only condoms used properly are anywhere close to 100% effective. There is still a chance that people will get pregnant even using two forms of contraception. This seems to be something you've overlooked.

I actually said multiple times that I don't begrudge people who use protection and then get pregnant anyway. I'm fully aware no form of birth control is 100% effective.

Priestley

Incidentally, this is why sexual education is important. Take one look at the shows over here where students are taught how to put on a condom by demonstrating on a d***o. It's both laughable and depressing how many break, or are put on inside out, or are removed and put back on.

I agree. And, in general, I think we need better sexual health education, but that's kind of beside the point.

Priestley

Because of this, I think it's a double-standard to be forgiving of people who get pregnant while using contraception and unforgiving of people who get pregnant without it, since most pregnancies while using contraception are either due to the contraception being less than 100% effective by nature or by its misuse. One must be either unforgiving of their ignorance/stupidity about contraception and unforgiving of people who don't use it, or forgiving of both. I'd rather be forgiving of both because I too would want to be forgiven if ever I was in a situation where I got my partner pregnant at an inconvenient time.

An unwanted pregnancy need not be an unwanted child.

I never said we shouldn't be forgiving of both. As I explain, I wouldn't hold it against them if it happened, because what's done is done. Chances are if someone is dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, they're already under enough stress. I would never think of adding to that by calling them irresponsible. I wouldn't begrudge it of them, I would help them look over their options and help them figure out what option was best suited to them. But if I found out someone was not using birth control, I would urge them to. It's just a matter of being sexual responsible. Get birth control and learn to use it properly.

My post was kind of cohesive so to be broken up like that kinda ruined the flow.

What I suppose I was getting at was asking whether you begrudge people who have sex without wanting to get pregnant and without using contraception. If it's accepted beforehand as an inevitability and/or the consequences are accepted afterward, I don't understand where your problem lies.  

[Priestley]

`apple dumpling

Priestley

`apple dumpling

As I said, my biggest gripe is people who simply don't use protection when there's so many options to choose from.

It's ignorance to say that pregnancy is somehow forgivable just because the use of any contraception suggests that pregnancy is unintentional. Only condoms used properly are anywhere close to 100% effective. There is still a chance that people will get pregnant even using two forms of contraception. This seems to be something you've overlooked.

I actually said multiple times that I don't begrudge people who use protection and then get pregnant anyway. I'm fully aware no form of birth control is 100% effective.

Priestley

Incidentally, this is why sexual education is important. Take one look at the shows over here where students are taught how to put on a condom by demonstrating on a d***o. It's both laughable and depressing how many break, or are put on inside out, or are removed and put back on.

I agree. And, in general, I think we need better sexual health education, but that's kind of beside the point.

Priestley

Because of this, I think it's a double-standard to be forgiving of people who get pregnant while using contraception and unforgiving of people who get pregnant without it, since most pregnancies while using contraception are either due to the contraception being less than 100% effective by nature or by its misuse. One must be either unforgiving of their ignorance/stupidity about contraception and unforgiving of people who don't use it, or forgiving of both. I'd rather be forgiving of both because I too would want to be forgiven if ever I was in a situation where I got my partner pregnant at an inconvenient time.

An unwanted pregnancy need not be an unwanted child.

I never said we shouldn't be forgiving of both. As I explain, I wouldn't hold it against them if it happened, because what's done is done. Chances are if someone is dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, they're already under enough stress. I would never think of adding to that by calling them irresponsible. I wouldn't begrudge it of them, I would help them look over their options and help them figure out what option was best suited to them. But if I found out someone was not using birth control, I would urge them to. It's just a matter of being sexual responsible. Get birth control and learn to use it properly.

My post was kind of cohesive so to be broken up like that kinda ruined the flow.

What I suppose I was getting at was asking whether you begrudge people who have sex without wanting to get pregnant and without using contraception. If it's accepted beforehand as an inevitability and/or the consequences are accepted afterward, I don't understand where your problem lies.  

[`apple dumpling]

Priestley

`apple dumpling

Priestley

`apple dumpling

As I said, my biggest gripe is people who simply don't use protection when there's so many options to choose from.

It's ignorance to say that pregnancy is somehow forgivable just because the use of any contraception suggests that pregnancy is unintentional. Only condoms used properly are anywhere close to 100% effective. There is still a chance that people will get pregnant even using two forms of contraception. This seems to be something you've overlooked.

I actually said multiple times that I don't begrudge people who use protection and then get pregnant anyway. I'm fully aware no form of birth control is 100% effective.

Priestley

Incidentally, this is why sexual education is important. Take one look at the shows over here where students are taught how to put on a condom by demonstrating on a d***o. It's both laughable and depressing how many break, or are put on inside out, or are removed and put back on.

I agree. And, in general, I think we need better sexual health education, but that's kind of beside the point.

Priestley

Because of this, I think it's a double-standard to be forgiving of people who get pregnant while using contraception and unforgiving of people who get pregnant without it, since most pregnancies while using contraception are either due to the contraception being less than 100% effective by nature or by its misuse. One must be either unforgiving of their ignorance/stupidity about contraception and unforgiving of people who don't use it, or forgiving of both. I'd rather be forgiving of both because I too would want to be forgiven if ever I was in a situation where I got my partner pregnant at an inconvenient time.

An unwanted pregnancy need not be an unwanted child.

I never said we shouldn't be forgiving of both. As I explain, I wouldn't hold it against them if it happened, because what's done is done. Chances are if someone is dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, they're already under enough stress. I would never think of adding to that by calling them irresponsible. I wouldn't begrudge it of them, I would help them look over their options and help them figure out what option was best suited to them. But if I found out someone was not using birth control, I would urge them to. It's just a matter of being sexual responsible. Get birth control and learn to use it properly.

My post was kind of cohesive so to be broken up like that kinda ruined the flow.

What I suppose I was getting at was asking whether you begrudge people who have sex without wanting to get pregnant and without using contraception. If it's accepted beforehand as an inevitability and/or the consequences are accepted afterward, I don't understand where your problem lies.

Sorry, I tend to break posts up by paragraph as that's as much as my attention span can handle sweatdrop

I don't begrudge people who have sex without wanting to get pregnant. Whenever I have sex, which is becoming and more and more viable option, it will definitely simply be for pleasure because I don't really intend to ever have children of my own. Since I don't want to become pregnant, I have fully educated myself on various kind of contraception and options in case pregnancy should occur due to a contraception failure.

I suppose my problem is I don't understand why you would have unprotected sex if you didn't want the pregnancy. No one wants to deal with the stress of an unwanted pregnancy, so I don't understand why you would do that. I think being sexually active means understanding and accepting your responsibilities to protect your body from STDs and unwanted pregnancies. To me, that is an essential and inherent part of being sexual active. If you don't want a child, wear a condom.  

[Priestley]

`apple dumpling

Sorry, I tend to break posts up by paragraph as that's as much as my attention span can handle sweatdrop

It's okay. Break it down! Keep it funky, now. xd

`apple dumpling

I don't begrudge people who have sex without wanting to get pregnant. Whenever I have sex, which is becoming and more and more viable option, it will definitely simply be for pleasure because I don't really intend to ever have children of my own. Since I don't want to become pregnant, I have fully educated myself on various kind of contraception and options in case pregnancy should occur due to a contraception failure.

I suppose my problem is I don't understand why you would have unprotected sex if you didn't want the pregnancy. No one wants to deal with the stress of an unwanted pregnancy, so I don't understand why you would do that. I think being sexually active means understanding and accepting your responsibilities to protect your body from STDs and unwanted pregnancies. To me, that is an essential and inherent part of being sexual active. If you don't want a child, wear a condom.

I guess you pretty much answered your own question. Many people have sex without contraception because it feels better for them than with contraception. Some have difficulties actually using contraception such as condoms that ruin the moment. Some fetishise the act of unprotected sex and insemination. While these aren't as sensible reasons as for using contraception, they are based around pleasure, which is the reason you yourself are considering having sex. While the merits of protection are obvious, I do not see any detriment other than disease for not using them. I guess I believe in what Jesus said about God providing for the birds and how much more God would provide for people, e.g. in the form of support for parents raising children, whether they were unwanted originally or not. If God doesn't have a problem with that, I don't see why I should.  

[`apple dumpling]

Priestley

`apple dumpling

Sorry, I tend to break posts up by paragraph as that's as much as my attention span can handle sweatdrop

It's okay. Break it down! Keep it funky, now. xd

`apple dumpling

I don't begrudge people who have sex without wanting to get pregnant. Whenever I have sex, which is becoming and more and more viable option, it will definitely simply be for pleasure because I don't really intend to ever have children of my own. Since I don't want to become pregnant, I have fully educated myself on various kind of contraception and options in case pregnancy should occur due to a contraception failure.

I suppose my problem is I don't understand why you would have unprotected sex if you didn't want the pregnancy. No one wants to deal with the stress of an unwanted pregnancy, so I don't understand why you would do that. I think being sexually active means understanding and accepting your responsibilities to protect your body from STDs and unwanted pregnancies. To me, that is an essential and inherent part of being sexual active. If you don't want a child, wear a condom.

I guess you pretty much answered your own question. Many people have sex without contraception because it feels better for them than with contraception. Some have difficulties actually using contraception such as condoms that ruin the moment. Some fetishise the act of unprotected sex and insemination. While these aren't as sensible reasons as for using contraception, they are based around pleasure, which is the reason you yourself are considering having sex. While the merits of protection are obvious, I do not see any detriment other than disease for not using them. I guess I believe in what Jesus said about God providing for the birds and how much more God would provide for people, e.g. in the form of support for parents raising children, whether they were unwanted originally or not. If God doesn't have a problem with that, I don't see why I should.

I suppose my thing is when I start having sex, I will be taking every precaution to not get pregnant, I suppose I just simply don't understand the mentality behind not using protection. I know some people don't like condoms, but there's a variety of other options. I suppose it's just my nature- I like being sure of things and doing as much to prevent things that would derail my plans. But at the same time, I respect other people's beliefs and if they choose no to use contraception, that's their choice so long as they're prepared to deal with it.

Though, I never said I felt that God would not accept it if a couple didn't use protection and got pregnant. I believe God works in mysterious ways and there are a lot of instances in which unplanned pregnancies end up being good. I think in the event of an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy, the couple should be in prayer as to keeping the child, giving it up for adoption, or aborting. I think it's a case by case basis as to what is best for the couple and the child.  

[Priestley]

`apple dumpling

Priestley

`apple dumpling

Sorry, I tend to break posts up by paragraph as that's as much as my attention span can handle sweatdrop

It's okay. Break it down! Keep it funky, now. xd

`apple dumpling

I don't begrudge people who have sex without wanting to get pregnant. Whenever I have sex, which is becoming and more and more viable option, it will definitely simply be for pleasure because I don't really intend to ever have children of my own. Since I don't want to become pregnant, I have fully educated myself on various kind of contraception and options in case pregnancy should occur due to a contraception failure.

I suppose my problem is I don't understand why you would have unprotected sex if you didn't want the pregnancy. No one wants to deal with the stress of an unwanted pregnancy, so I don't understand why you would do that. I think being sexually active means understanding and accepting your responsibilities to protect your body from STDs and unwanted pregnancies. To me, that is an essential and inherent part of being sexual active. If you don't want a child, wear a condom.

I guess you pretty much answered your own question. Many people have sex without contraception because it feels better for them than with contraception. Some have difficulties actually using contraception such as condoms that ruin the moment. Some fetishise the act of unprotected sex and insemination. While these aren't as sensible reasons as for using contraception, they are based around pleasure, which is the reason you yourself are considering having sex. While the merits of protection are obvious, I do not see any detriment other than disease for not using them. I guess I believe in what Jesus said about God providing for the birds and how much more God would provide for people, e.g. in the form of support for parents raising children, whether they were unwanted originally or not. If God doesn't have a problem with that, I don't see why I should.

I suppose my thing is when I start having sex, I will be taking every precaution to not get pregnant, I suppose I just simply don't understand the mentality behind not using protection. I know some people don't like condoms, but there's a variety of other options. I suppose it's just my nature- I like being sure of things and doing as much to prevent things that would derail my plans. But at the same time, I respect other people's beliefs and if they choose no to use contraception, that's their choice so long as they're prepared to deal with it.

You've clearly expressed on several occasions what precautions you plan to take when you're ready. To be clear, I respect your choices because they have merit. I consider them responsible not because you are taking control and ownership of your sexual activities. I'm not arguing against it. However, I am concerned that your attitudes towards sex, pregnancy and their places in your life are preventing you from understanding the reasoning behind other courses of action. Another point of concern is that, because you are taking the course of action that you deem more responsible, you expect the same level of responsibility from others. If you can happily accept that you would want someone to have the same expectations of responsibility from you and your partner, then there is no problem. However, if you would feel uncomfortable about that, then I think you would have to reconsider the fairness of your expectations. Also, something to consider is that, if there were no unwanted children via sexual responsibility, there would be no adoption. While I think this would be ideal, how you manage to balance your views against sexual irresponsibility and for adoption? Is your desire to adopt independent of or part of your personal faith?

`apple dumpling

Though, I never said I felt that God would not accept it if a couple didn't use protection and got pregnant. I believe God works in mysterious ways and there are a lot of instances in which unplanned pregnancies end up being good. I think in the event of an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy, the couple should be in prayer as to keeping the child, giving it up for adoption, or aborting. I think it's a case by case basis as to what is best for the couple and the child.

If God can accept it without placing unnecessary burden, why shouldn't we as Christians? There's nothing mysterious about that. I believe that God is the God of, essentially, "you make your bed, you lie in it, but I'll be here if you're scared of the dark". I believe all unwanted/unplanned pregnancies are good in God's eyes, because procreation is good in God's eyes. I don't think it is necessary to confuse this by making some sex irresponsible and therefore bad, and other sex responsible and good. We also associate "unwanted/unplanned" with "bad" because it's disruptive to our selfish routines. I think the issue is overcomplicated. I think the prayer to pray in such situations is "what does God want?". There's no need to confuse it with what we desire or what is convenient for us.  

[`apple dumpling]

Priestley

`apple dumpling

Priestley

`apple dumpling

Sorry, I tend to break posts up by paragraph as that's as much as my attention span can handle sweatdrop

It's okay. Break it down! Keep it funky, now. xd

`apple dumpling

I don't begrudge people who have sex without wanting to get pregnant. Whenever I have sex, which is becoming and more and more viable option, it will definitely simply be for pleasure because I don't really intend to ever have children of my own. Since I don't want to become pregnant, I have fully educated myself on various kind of contraception and options in case pregnancy should occur due to a contraception failure.

I suppose my problem is I don't understand why you would have unprotected sex if you didn't want the pregnancy. No one wants to deal with the stress of an unwanted pregnancy, so I don't understand why you would do that. I think being sexually active means understanding and accepting your responsibilities to protect your body from STDs and unwanted pregnancies. To me, that is an essential and inherent part of being sexual active. If you don't want a child, wear a condom.

I guess you pretty much answered your own question. Many people have sex without contraception because it feels better for them than with contraception. Some have difficulties actually using contraception such as condoms that ruin the moment. Some fetishise the act of unprotected sex and insemination. While these aren't as sensible reasons as for using contraception, they are based around pleasure, which is the reason you yourself are considering having sex. While the merits of protection are obvious, I do not see any detriment other than disease for not using them. I guess I believe in what Jesus said about God providing for the birds and how much more God would provide for people, e.g. in the form of support for parents raising children, whether they were unwanted originally or not. If God doesn't have a problem with that, I don't see why I should.

I suppose my thing is when I start having sex, I will be taking every precaution to not get pregnant, I suppose I just simply don't understand the mentality behind not using protection. I know some people don't like condoms, but there's a variety of other options. I suppose it's just my nature- I like being sure of things and doing as much to prevent things that would derail my plans. But at the same time, I respect other people's beliefs and if they choose no to use contraception, that's their choice so long as they're prepared to deal with it.

You've clearly expressed on several occasions what precautions you plan to take when you're ready. To be clear, I respect your choices because they have merit. I consider them responsible not because you are taking control and ownership of your sexual activities. I'm not arguing against it. However, I am concerned that your attitudes towards sex, pregnancy and their places in your life are preventing you from understanding the reasoning behind other courses of action. Another point of concern is that, because you are taking the course of action that you deem more responsible, you expect the same level of responsibility from others. If you can happily accept that you would want someone to have the same expectations of responsibility from you and your partner, then there is no problem. However, if you would feel uncomfortable about that, then I think you would have to reconsider the fairness of your expectations. Also, something to consider is that, if there were no unwanted children via sexual responsibility, there would be no adoption. While I think this would be ideal, how you manage to balance your views against sexual irresponsibility and for adoption? Is your desire to adopt independent of or part of your personal faith?

`apple dumpling

Though, I never said I felt that God would not accept it if a couple didn't use protection and got pregnant. I believe God works in mysterious ways and there are a lot of instances in which unplanned pregnancies end up being good. I think in the event of an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy, the couple should be in prayer as to keeping the child, giving it up for adoption, or aborting. I think it's a case by case basis as to what is best for the couple and the child.

If God can accept it without placing unnecessary burden, why shouldn't we as Christians? There's nothing mysterious about that. I believe that God is the God of, essentially, "you make your bed, you lie in it, but I'll be here if you're scared of the dark". I believe all unwanted/unplanned pregnancies are good in God's eyes, because procreation is good in God's eyes. I don't think it is necessary to confuse this by making some sex irresponsible and therefore bad, and other sex responsible and good. We also associate "unwanted/unplanned" with "bad" because it's disruptive to our selfish routines. I think the issue is overcomplicated. I think the prayer to pray in such situations is "what does God want?". There's no need to confuse it with what we desire or what is convenient for us.

Like I said, I think a lot of it comes from my desire to have my plans and have as few hiccups in it as possible, and I have a difficult time understanding mentalities that are radically different. As I said, if a couple chooses not to use protection and is aware and ready to deal with the consequences, then that's fine. That is being responsible as well. I'm not gonna go crazy and shove condoms at everyone, but as I said, if I found out I had a friend who was having unprotected sex regularly and didn't want a child, I would urge them to use protection. Unless there's a reason, such as personal beliefs against it, if a person cannot handle the pregnancy I think it's more beneficial for everyone to avoid it if possible.

On the subject of adoption, I believe there would still be adoptions as contraception fails even when used correctly, and there are orphans as well. And my desire to adopt stems out of my irrational fear of pregnancy and my belief that there are too many children in the world without homes, and I would be more than willing to give them a loving home.

I don't see unplanned pregnancies as inherently bad. I think often times they can be blessings in disguises, or that's what many mothers would argue. But that stems out of my belief that God can take a bad situation and make it a learning and growing experience.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Holy crap, I'm gone for a few days and this topic explodes. eek

At any rate, I think both Liz and Priestley are making valid points, though I can understand Priestley's view better. From what I'm reading in your posts, Liz, and specifically from your comment about the hypothetical friend who was having unprotected sex but still didn't want children, it sounds like you don't want to deal with people who don't hold themselves to the same standard you hold yourself to. For you personally, it is important to barricade your uterus against any unwanted entity in any way possible (I would just be careful, because if, in the future, you change your mind, depending on the methods of contraception you decide to use, pregnancy may be difficult to achieve). That's all well and fine- if that's your choice, good on you. But it's not fair to judge someone else because of their apparent indifference to so-called responsibility. In the end, it becomes more of a "don't come crying to me because you didn't stop what you didn't want to happen," and that's not fair, by any means. God never holds us in that light- He gives us the choice, and no matter what we decide, He still wants us to go to Him with it, whatever the outcome. The responsibility does come into play in the prevention aspect, but I think it's more important in the consequences half of the situation- the part where a couple has to decide "what now?".

At any rate, you are aware that Plan B is abortion, right? There is no such pill or patch or anything that prevents implantation (aside, of course, from barrier methods of birth control). Plan B essentially forces you to have a period- my best friend said it sucks, and she said she was sick for a day and a half while her body churned out what may or may not have been a baby in the making. If you believe that life begins at conception, and if you are personally against abortion as an option for you, then you don't want to use morning after pills. It is abortion.

Also, as for birth control pills, they do regulat ovulation, as ovulation is a part of your menstrual cycle (ovulation, the few days little eggs spends in falopian tubes, implantation, expulsion (this is so awesome, isn't it, boys?? 8D)). You're given a month's worth of pills that trick your body into thinking it's pregnant by the release of estrogen (and progesteron too I think), and the last pill (or it may be the last few pills, I'll have to ask my bff) is/are sugar pill(s). You take them like the rest of your birth control, but the lack of extra hormones makes your body think it's no longer pregnant, and you have your period. What's convenient is that you know exactly when you'd be able to get pregnant, which is good for preventing or encouraging conception. 3nodding