Regarding Culture, and Entitlement

[TeaDidikai]

Asahi Sara

Someone said you can believe whatever you want, and someone else then accused them of culture rape.

Because whatever you want would include elements of entitlement to closed traditions.

Whatever you want would include the right to invoke deities who had sworn not to work with you. Not all deities are omnipotent.

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Are for example fairies, or maybe the spelling faeries, or elves or some other fantasy creatures, a product of oathbound knowledge being spread around?

Some beings are bound themselves to specific areas. By misrepresenting thoughtforms or local beings as being the same as these Otherlings, we're looking at culture rape.

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How am I to know then what culture rape is and is not,

Ask. 3nodding

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there is fairy stuff everywhere, just go to the mall and there's calendars by Amy Brown. If fairies/faeries = culture rape then I'm guilty of this on so many levels. I didn't want to open up this can of worms yet, but I feel like its the only way to help sort out some of this confusion.

Faeries wouldn't be culture rape unto themselves. But the contamination that Faerie-Subculture has wrought may be.

I'd start out with some good research.

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In another example after reading some of the recommended reading list I thought of purchasing "Witchcraft Today" by Gerald Gardener. I figured if he founded Wicca his books would probably be public domain. Why would he break oaths within his own faith?

He didn't. What you learn about Wica from his books (and about other traditions he comments on) isn't Oathbound.

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I know my questions are getting pretty silly but I think it will help clear some things up. confused

They aren't silly at all. Keep asking honest questions and no one in this guild in their right mind will fault you for it.  

[Adalyna]

TeaDidikai

Because whatever you want would include elements of entitlement to closed traditions.

Whatever you want would include the right to invoke deities who had sworn not to work with you. Not all deities are omnipotent.

That makes sense. I still think it was going a little too far instead of adding "within reason" or some explanation of why they would be outside of their rights, but I digress, I'm getting off topic here.

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Some beings are bound themselves to specific areas. By misrepresenting thoughtforms or local beings as being the same as these Otherlings, we're looking at culture rape.

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean quite exactly.

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Faeries wouldn't be culture rape unto themselves. But the contamination that Faerie-Subculture has wrought may be.

I'd start out with some good research.

again... I'm not sure what you mean by contamination... Any suggestions where I should go about researching this? This is relevant to what I'm wanting to learn in regards to my specific pathway as well.

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He didn't. What you learn about Wica from his books (and about other traditions he comments on) isn't Oathbound.

I still don't know if its the right starting point for me, but that does clear up a lot! thanks!  

[TeaDidikai]

Asahi Sara

That makes sense. I still think it was going a little too far instead of adding "within reason" or some explanation of why they would be outside of their rights, but I digress, I'm getting off topic here.

Sorry- I just lost track of the conversation. What "it" are you talking about when saying it was going a little too far?

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I'm afraid I don't know what you mean quite exactly.

Okay. I'm going to use an example from my back yard and the Gael.

There's a group near where I live that say the worship The Goddess (tm). They habitually evoke any number of deities at their rituals- sometimes ones that historically hate each other.

They said they invited an Irish Goddess at their last circle, and that it was "A Dark and Mysterious Mother who showed her love to her daughters present in the shrine". I laughed. In her face. I didn't mean to- the gal was being sincere. She honestly thought the Morrigan was a loving, dark and mysterious mother that had at their whim traveled half way around the world to tell the chicks who were gathered there that she loved them.

This was not the Morrigan. I wasn't at the event, so I don't know if they were Mr. Darking, or if they had made a Morrigan-Shaped-Thoughform.

Whatever they were doing- it wasn't the Morrigan. It was their interest in the Morrigan that had them apply a proper name to something that wasn't the Morrigan in order to make them feel special (or whatever).

This is culture rape. This is decontextualizing a deity from another culture and revamping it into what you want it to be.

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again... I'm not sure what you mean by contamination... Any suggestions where I should go about researching this? This is relevant to what I'm wanting to learn in regards to my specific pathway as well.

What Path- that will narrow it down enough for me to make suggestions.

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I still don't know if its the right starting point for me, but that does clear up a lot! thanks!

Happy to help.  

[Adalyna]

TeaDidikai

Sorry- I just lost track of the conversation. What "it" are you talking about when saying it was going a little too far?

I just think if the person who said you could believe anything you want, had been given the chance to think about it, I doubt she would have worded it that way. I don't think that many people are openly morally supportive of say, using religion to justify sexual assault. Admittedly said person might not understand the consequences of culture rape either, so I'm running myself into circular logic.

Incidentally is there a more "textbook" term for culture rape?

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Okay. I'm going to use an example from my back yard and the Gael.

There's a group near where I live that say the worship The Goddess (tm). They habitually evoke any number of deities at their rituals- sometimes ones that historically hate each other.

They said they invited an Irish Goddess at their last circle, and that it was "A Dark and Mysterious Mother who showed her love to her daughters present in the shrine". I laughed. In her face. I didn't mean to- the gal was being sincere. She honestly thought the Morrigan was a loving, dark and mysterious mother that had at their whim traveled half way around the world to tell the chicks who were gathered there that she loved them.

This was not the Morrigan. I wasn't at the event, so I don't know if they were Mr. Darking, or if they had made a Morrigan-Shaped-Thoughform.

Whatever they were doing- it wasn't the Morrigan. It was their interest in the Morrigan that had them apply a proper name to something that wasn't the Morrigan in order to make them feel special (or whatever).

this is a pretty clear example for me. I don't see myself calling on Irish Deities for any reason, my understanding is that they want nothing to do with me, and I wouldn't want to bother them. I guess I'm more worried about grayer areas. Suffice to say I have a pretty basic idea of what's not okay, I'm not so sure about what IS okay.

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What Path- that will narrow it down enough for me to make suggestions.

specific path was a poor choice of words on my part. I imagine when I've found a path for myself it will be quite eclectic. I have an obsession with fairies, I confess, and I am very much interested in learning about traditions that have to do with, or include fairies, or entities that could be thought of as fairies. Otherlings in general interest me a lot. I don't know of any such traditions that would be open to me, if they even exist. I'm also interested in understanding the general practice of magic, and what it means to people, and how to go about it myself. I figured the latter would be a safer starting point merely because, as a friend pointed out, fairies are very contextual. What I'm trying to say, is I'm trying to find my path, and fairies are one major area of interest. I know very little and don't know where to begin. I hope I'm making sense confused

Sorry if I'm a bother. x_X  

[TeaDidikai]

Asahi Sara

I just think if the person who said you could believe anything you want, had been given the chance to think about it, I doubt she would have worded it that way.

She was given a chance. No one forced her to post at a specific time.

Being given a chance and actually taking it are two different things. Some folks (myself included) jump on people who make blanket assertions about the validity of religions because they are so hung up on being "Open Minded" they forget to actually think.

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Incidentally is there a more "textbook" term for culture rape?

Yes and no. Anthropologists will sometimes talk about Cultural Appropriation, but Culture Rape is specifically cultural misappropriation.

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this is a pretty clear example for me. I don't see myself calling on Irish Deities for any reason, my understanding is that they want nothing to do with me, and I wouldn't want to bother them. I guess I'm more worried about grayer areas. Suffice to say I have a pretty basic idea of what's not okay, I'm not so sure about what IS okay.

Fair enough. The problem is that the list of what isn't prohibited is a lot longer. Without specifics, I don't know what to suggest.

What I can say is that the advice you have been given about talking to members of the groups in question is pretty sound. As someone who has taken part in some Squaxin ceremonies and the like, I can tell you I was personally invited by friends who are cornerstones of the Long House trads. They knew me, they gave me rules and I followed them.

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specific path was a poor choice of words on my part. I imagine when I've found a path for myself it will be quite eclectic. I have an obsession with fairies, I confess, and I am very much interested in learning about traditions that have to do with, or include fairies, or entities that could be thought of as fairies. Otherlings in general interest me a lot. I don't know of any such traditions that would be open to me, if they even exist. I'm also interested in understanding the general practice of magic, and what it means to people, and how to go about it myself. I figured the latter would be a safer starting point merely because, as a friend pointed out, fairies are very contextual. What I'm trying to say, is I'm trying to find my path, and fairies are one major area of interest. I know very little and don't know where to begin. I hope I'm making sense confused

Sorry if I'm a bother. x_X

You're not a bother. Can you define faeries for us and give reasons why you hold your definition as accurate?

Also- why would you want to practice magic?  

[Adalyna]

TeaDidikai

Being given a chance and actually taking it are two different things. Some folks (myself included) jump on people who make blanket assertions about the validity of religions because they are so hung up on being "Open Minded" they forget to actually think.

I see what you mean, maybe I'm just too caught up in being nice. I do have a problem with this myself though, I mean in some cases religion is obviously being used as an excuse for immorality, but what about not so obvious cases. For example I used to work on the no on 8 campaign, (I live in California) I remember after the election was over, more than half the gay community in Hollywood was protesting the Mormon church. The Mormon church's president spoke against civil rights for LGBT people, who is if I'm not mistakened a highly regarded spiritual leader in the Mormon church. I complained later that the law was our enemy, not this church, as I've struggled with my own intolerance against Mormons for many years in my life, trying to tell myself I've no right to judge them. I guess I'm just a little confused about how I should feel now. I'm trying to be tolerant of a church that tells its people I shouldn't have any rights? Sorry for using this example, this keeps going off into another topic, and I'm not really even debating or disagreeing necessarily, just sharing whee my experiences have lead me on the topic. I'll move on.

TeaDidikai

Also- why would you want to practice magic?

I'm putting things out of order here because this question is a tiny bit easier to answer. My answer may be the wrong answer, but at least in this case I've got one. I want to be in touch with the metaphysical. I want to try to know if there is more to life than just matter. Something beyond dust to dust. I feel like if I am to know my soul, I must use it, and I believe magic can be a way of this. I don't proclaim to know what magic precisely is. I already meditate, perhaps I should more often. I pray on occasion to a diety I believe exists, who's name I do not know. For now, I want to learn about magic, what it is, what it is not. I'm not expecting to throw fireballs, turn people into frogs, or become "powerful."
I'm hoping magic can be a tool to help me come closer to spiritual enlightenment.

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Can you define faeries for us and give reasons why you hold your definition as accurate?

This is alot harder. For one I cannot explain this compulsion I have towards faeries. Perhaps it is not important to my spiritual enlightenment. I don't feel like I have any right to say what faeries are or are not, unless I first learn what other people believe they are, and come to some understanding of why. I've little education on the matter to begin with, so all I have to go by is either A. fantasy or B. my own foggy ideas about the metaphysical world. Under A. I would say beings from other worlds that inhabit ours. B. Things that are tied with specific regions, that are not gods, but not human beings or animals either. As to what regions are tied to cultures that are open to me I don't know. I suppose if entities like that existed they would be scattered all over the place, but if there were any here, I don't know how to look for them, nor anyone who does, nor any idea how to go about it safely, as while for whatever reason, these beings hold my interest, I expect they could be dangerous.

For the other question, I feel comfortable with my answer, it's honest, I've thought it through, and if it is the wrong answer, I probably shouldn't be practicing anything that can be regarded as magic.

For the faerie question, I just feel like an idiot. As far as why my ideas of what faeries are would be the right one... frankly, though i read your opinion on nihilism, I just don't believe religious beliefs are better than the next person's. I believe I don't need to be right to search for clues about how the world works. How can I say something with 100% conviction unless I have some way to prove it as fact?

On a side note, if I seem defensive, I'm really sorry. I haven't slept in two days, and I'm not sure I'll get any sleep tonight. Plus I get the impression you wanted to see that I can be assertive about the paths I wanted to take, but I'm known to misread into things.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Asahi Sara

...My answer may be the wrong answer, but at least in this case I've got one. I want to be in touch with the metaphysical. I want to try to know if there is more to life than just matter. Something beyond dust to dust. I feel like if I am to know my soul, I must use it, and I believe magic can be a way of this. I don't proclaim to know what magic precisely is. I already meditate, perhaps I should more often. I pray on occasion to a diety I believe exists, who's name I do not know. For now, I want to learn about magic, what it is, what it is not. I'm not expecting to throw fireballs, turn people into frogs, or become "powerful."
I'm hoping magic can be a tool to help me come closer to spiritual enlightenment.

eek crying
I weep for the beauty of that.
So often do I read people lusting for power, wishing to bend the world to their will, desiring self-aggrandizement and seeing the hidden Truths as means to these ends.

I am sorry for interjecting.
I cannot lead you to what you seek.
I cannot volunteer anything really...
There is Knowledge that will burn, it shall hurt, it shall threaten to tear the very heart from you. There is other Knowledge so sublime you may never recover from learning it.
I will admonish you, as I do all persons, to be very aware of the after affects of anything you do, and please seek a teacher you can meet in person whom you can learn from, this will cut down on collateral damage.
I know this likely means nothing, but if your intentions are as you state, I do not discourage you from seeking this path.

Also, the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the absolute spiritual authority of the church. It is similar in many ways to the Pope for Catholics, especially in regards to divine mandate. Prop 8 was very divisive for many Mormons. It lead to several resignations from the church. 'Twere I not already excommunicated, I would have been amongst that number.

Anyway, I now return you to Tea's tender mercies. ninja  

[maenad nuri]

Asahi, run, do not walk, to Thorn Coyles work, "Evolutionary Magic". It is exactly that, magic for spiritual enlightenment.  

[Adalyna]

Fiddlers Green

eek crying
I weep for the beauty of that.
So often do I read people lusting for power, wishing to bend the world to their will, desiring self-aggrandizement and seeing the hidden Truths as means to these ends.

I am sorry for interjecting.

I have no problem, others opinions and and knowledge are important to me too!

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I cannot lead you to what you seek.
I cannot volunteer anything really...
There is Knowledge that will burn, it shall hurt, it shall threaten to tear the very heart from you. There is other Knowledge so sublime you may never recover from learning it.
I will admonish you, as I do all persons, to be very aware of the after affects of anything you do, and please seek a teacher you can meet in person whom you can learn from, this will cut down on collateral damage.
I know this likely means nothing, but if your intentions are as you state, I do not discourage you from seeking this path.

This actually does mean a lot to me, and yes this is my honest reason. Thank you smile

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Also, the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the absolute spiritual authority of the church. It is similar in many ways to the Pope for Catholics, especially in regards to divine mandate. Prop 8 was very divisive for many Mormons. It lead to several resignations from the church. 'Twere I not already excommunicated, I would have been amongst that number.

That too actually. I try not to look down on others for their spiritual beliefs but, it gets difficult to tolerate the intolerant. Maybe I've been too hard on myself for my anger towards them all along. confused  

[Adalyna]

maenad nuri

Asahi, run, do not walk, to Thorn Coyles work, "Evolutionary Magic". It is exactly that, magic for spiritual enlightenment.

http://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Witchcraft-T-Thorn-Coyle/dp/1585423475/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238578967&sr=8-2 is this the right book? I'm thinking of ordering it next month most likely when I get my next check, *has like 5$ in her bank account* thanks to your suggestion. Thank you!!  

[maenad nuri]

Asahi Sara

maenad nuri

Asahi, run, do not walk, to Thorn Coyles work, "Evolutionary Magic". It is exactly that, magic for spiritual enlightenment.

http://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Witchcraft-T-Thorn-Coyle/dp/1585423475/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238578967&sr=8-2 is this the right book? I'm thinking of ordering it next month most likely when I get my next check, *has like 5$ in her bank account* thanks to your suggestion. Thank you!!

Exactly it. I also recomend her blog: http://yezida.livejournal.com/

She's very different from myself, but wow, is she good.  

[Adalyna]

Thanks again! I bookmarked it and I'll read through it when my eyes aren't coming out of their sockets XD