Female Pastors

[Priestley]

Kazydi

zz1000zz

Priestley

zz1000zz

Priestley

Because my father did just that and it worked for our family.

I do not see how personal experiences can be used to tell other people how to behave.

Not that I am required to defend my position but that I am willing to point out your error, I direct you to the expressions "To me, ..." and "I think ...", which indicate opinion. If you're implying that I had "[told] other people how to behave" in this case, I have not. The accurate and correct statement for you to have used would have been that I had "[told] other people what I think is the correct course of action".

You have no ability to force your will upon people, so by telling them what to do you can only tell them what you think they should do. I made no mistake here. I simply did not elaborate on what was inherently implied by my statement.

You hate being wrong, don't you?

He wasn't. It was a misunderstanding. The issue is resolved. Let's move on.  

[Priestley]

Matt Pniewski

But my point both times was this: What's more important here? Yeah, I convoluted a simple point, but is it more important for the Pastor to be good or is it more important for them to be a male? Same thing as head of household.

Really, it's counter productive to put the man in charge when, quite frankly, a woman can do better in the same position. When do we say "The bible says" and when do we go "Dude, that guy has totally screwed everything up, but at least we have a man instead of a woman!" Do we look for another man, or do we put the more qualified woman in charge.

It just doesn't work to allow gender to determine these things. I'm not speaking as a liberal or as a Christian. I'm just speaking as somebody who thinks this is a huge breech of common sense.

Read my first two posts and consider whether they, in the majority, fit with your point of view.  

[zz1000zz]

Priestley

Is the idea of women in church ministry actually threat to the Church? Is it only seen that way by men in church ministry? Could the issue not be because it is a threat to the Church but in actuality be a threat to those men who hold positions of dominance, control and power within it?

These are all questions that are running through my mind right now. I thought I would offer them up to grease the wheels a little. smile

There is no doubt this is the primary reason for the gender differences in modern Christianity. Jesus did not treat either gender differently, but the patriarchal societies of the time refused to change. There are countless examples of the early Christians inserting their own patriarchal ideas into Christianity. Perhaps the best example of this is the translation of the Bible. A number of passages in the New Testament were mistranslated to remove the positive discussion of females.

Kazydi

You hate being wrong, don't you? In no way was he instructing anyone to do anything. Besides, aren't you doing the same thing in your rebuttal?

If you read the exchange between Priestley and me, you will see the issue has already been resolved. However, I would like to point out two things. The first is I do in fact do the exact same thing I mentioned Priestley doing. Everyone does. I was not saying it was a bad thing.

The second issue is a bit more important. That issue is, I hate being wrong. I despise it. However, this is not the bad trait you make it seem to be. It is a good trait. If you hate being wrong, you will strive not to be wrong. This does not mean you will argue an incorrect position because of some pride. In fact, it means the exact opposite.

If you hate being wrong, you will do everything you can to not be wrong. This means you will constantly question your own thoughts, you will always look for new view points, and most importantly, you will always consider criticism.

So yes. I hate being wrong.  

[Matt Pniewski]

Priestley

Matt Pniewski

But my point both times was this: What's more important here? Yeah, I convoluted a simple point, but is it more important for the Pastor to be good or is it more important for them to be a male? Same thing as head of household.

Really, it's counter productive to put the man in charge when, quite frankly, a woman can do better in the same position. When do we say "The bible says" and when do we go "Dude, that guy has totally screwed everything up, but at least we have a man instead of a woman!" Do we look for another man, or do we put the more qualified woman in charge.

It just doesn't work to allow gender to determine these things. I'm not speaking as a liberal or as a Christian. I'm just speaking as somebody who thinks this is a huge breech of common sense.

Read my first two posts and consider whether they, in the majority, fit with your point of view.

I did. I just realized reading the response that I needed to phrase it better.

The Ministry is no different than a household, or a workplace, in the fact that you want the best person for the job in there.  

[Marek James]

If my church utilized a women pastor I would leave.

I would leave because I would no longer be able to trust the leaders of the church to properly interpret the word of God. For me it is simple. It would not matter how many friendships I had developed in the church. It would not matter if I was being used in the church. And, it would not matter that people might look down on me for leaving. But that's what I would do because I would be afraid that the door to liberalism had been opened.

Is this an overreaction? Not at all. We must remain faithful to Scripture and this requires that we act. If I believe that women are not to teach and exercise authority in the Church, and that the pastorate is reserved for elders who are husbands of one wife, then how could I in good conscience sit under the teaching of those who would contradict such clear Scripture? I could not. Could you?  

[Priestley]

Marek James

If my church utilized a women pastor I would leave.

I would leave because I would no longer be able to trust the leaders of the church to properly interpret the word of God. For me it is simple. It would not matter how many friendships I had developed in the church. It would not matter if I was being used in the church. And, it would not matter that people might look down on me for leaving. But that's what I would do because I would be afraid that the door to liberalism had been opened.

Is this an overreaction? Not at all. We must remain faithful to Scripture and this requires that we act. If I believe that women are not to teach and exercise authority in the Church, and that the pastorate is reserved for elders who are husbands of one wife, then how could I in good conscience sit under the teaching of those who would contradict such clear Scripture? I could not. Could you?

The claims that liberalism is dangerous are based in fear that the Bible will not stand up to challenge and scrutiny. I argue that the only danger is that the Bible finds difficult proving itself through good reason and physical proof.

Could you point me to scripture that says that women are not qualified to hold positions in the church?

By the way, your signature is funny on so many levels.  

[zz1000zz]

Marek James

If my church utilized a women pastor I would leave.

I would leave because I would no longer be able to trust the leaders of the church to properly interpret the word of God. For me it is simple. It would not matter how many friendships I had developed in the church. It would not matter if I was being used in the church. And, it would not matter that people might look down on me for leaving. But that's what I would do because I would be afraid that the door to liberalism had been opened.

Is this an overreaction? Not at all. We must remain faithful to Scripture and this requires that we act. If I believe that women are not to teach and exercise authority in the Church, and that the pastorate is reserved for elders who are husbands of one wife, then how could I in good conscience sit under the teaching of those who would contradict such clear Scripture? I could not. Could you?

This mentality is actually reinforcing an incorrect view of the Bible. Nothing in the Bible says women cannot teach the word of God, and several portions of the Bible show them doing just that.

Priestley

By the way, your signature is funny on so many levels.

It is extremely inaccurate, but it can be humorous.  

[freelance lover]

Marek James

If my church utilized a women pastor I would leave.

I would leave because I would no longer be able to trust the leaders of the church to properly interpret the word of God. For me it is simple. It would not matter how many friendships I had developed in the church. It would not matter if I was being used in the church. And, it would not matter that people might look down on me for leaving. But that's what I would do because I would be afraid that the door to liberalism had been opened.

Is this an overreaction? Not at all. We must remain faithful to Scripture and this requires that we act. If I believe that women are not to teach and exercise authority in the Church, and that the pastorate is reserved for elders who are husbands of one wife, then how could I in good conscience sit under the teaching of those who would contradict such clear Scripture? I could not. Could you?

So then what of the women who were teachers in the Bible? There were plenty of women who took on roles of authority- there was even a female judge in the OT.

Liberalism is also very subjective and is based off of where culture and society are at that point in time. The truth is, even today's most conservative Christians probably would have been considered extremely liberal during Paul life time, and even beyond that. Besides, many of our most important Christian movements have been the result of liberalism- the Protestant Church being the largest example.

So if I feel called to ministry- to become an ordained minister, attend seminary, the whole nine yards- am I supposed to supress that urge? While I respect you for holding firm to your beliefs, it troubles me a little. We need to live in today's world- not the world of 100 years ago.

And I agree, I enjoy your sig xD  

[Xandris]

Marek James

But that's what I would do because I would be afraid that the door to liberalism had been opened.

Hey now! I represent that remark! mrgreen

Don't be too hard on the liberals. You'd be surprised how many church traditions were started because of a few people who went against the grain, and the conservatives eventually started to like the idea and made it stick. Don't be afraid that a female pastor would come in and turn your church upside down. She's heard the same call and gone through the same schooling as any man would. It's not going against the Bible to be led by a woman. There were female prophets and leaders. Don't dismiss a woman entirely out of hand. Sit on it for awhile. Pray and read. If you still feel that a female pastor isn't for you, that's fine. But ask yourself if it's because God is telling you that she's not for you, or if it's a fear of going against convention.  

[Lindsey B3]

God made the rues to apply to this world and the word 100 years ago. Now you can go to seminary if you want but you can't PREACH over men or in a church unless you are on a missionary trip or something to that extent. In my family I have a problem with being discriminated against for being female (seeing as its 4 boys and 1 girl) but my dad showed me the verse in the bible and explained that its not that men are more powerful its just that since they were here first they are the leaders.  

[freelance lover]

Xandris

Marek James

But that's what I would do because I would be afraid that the door to liberalism had been opened.

Hey now! I represent that remark! mrgreen

Don't be too hard on the liberals. You'd be surprised how many church traditions were started because of a few people who went against the grain, and the conservatives eventually started to like the idea and made it stick. Don't be afraid that a female pastor would come in and turn your church upside down. She's heard the same call and gone through the same schooling as any man would. It's not going against the Bible to be led by a woman. There were female prophets and leaders. Don't dismiss a woman entirely out of hand. Sit on it for awhile. Pray and read. If you still feel that a female pastor isn't for you, that's fine. But ask yourself if it's because God is telling you that she's not for you, or if it's a fear of going against convention.

You, sir, are brilliant -bow-

@Lindsay B3: It really depends on what branch of Christianity you're in. I'm a United Methodist, and I've been to tons of Methodist churches with female pastors as well as female head pastors. Some denominations allow it, and some don't.

And I think the whole "men where here first, they get to lead" thing is a pretty pood argument. As I would say to my kids at camp "Just because you're here first, doesn't mean it's yours! You have to share."  

[Iron Faith]

zz1000zz

This mentality is actually reinforcing an incorrect view of the Bible. Nothing in the Bible says women cannot teach the word of God, and several portions of the Bible show them doing just that.

*hits buzzer* actually, i believe paul does say something about how women should not teach in the church, but i'll have to find exactly where.  

[zz1000zz]

the last mage

zz1000zz

This mentality is actually reinforcing an incorrect view of the Bible. Nothing in the Bible says women cannot teach the word of God, and several portions of the Bible show them doing just that.

*hits buzzer* actually, i believe paul does say something about how women should not teach in the church, but i'll have to find exactly where.

There are plenty of passages in the Bible people have used to say the Bible says certain things. That has been the case for many things which were not actually said by the Bible.

A prime example of this would be the discussions on homosexuality this guild has hosted.  

[Iron Faith]

zz1000zz

the last mage

zz1000zz

This mentality is actually reinforcing an incorrect view of the Bible. Nothing in the Bible says women cannot teach the word of God, and several portions of the Bible show them doing just that.

*hits buzzer* actually, i believe paul does say something about how women should not teach in the church, but i'll have to find exactly where.

There are plenty of passages in the Bible people have used to say the Bible says certain things. That has been the case for many things which were not actually said by the Bible.

A prime example of this would be the discussions on homosexuality this guild has hosted.

no, i mean paul actually says that women are not to lead in the church. not in those exact words, but what i'm getting at is that it isn't "read between the lines" doctrine. and im still looking for for the verse(s).  

[Priestley]

the last mage

zz1000zz

the last mage

zz1000zz

This mentality is actually reinforcing an incorrect view of the Bible. Nothing in the Bible says women cannot teach the word of God, and several portions of the Bible show them doing just that.

*hits buzzer* actually, i believe paul does say something about how women should not teach in the church, but i'll have to find exactly where.

There are plenty of passages in the Bible people have used to say the Bible says certain things. That has been the case for many things which were not actually said by the Bible.

A prime example of this would be the discussions on homosexuality this guild has hosted.

no, i mean paul actually says that women are not to lead in the church. not in those exact words, but what i'm getting at is that it isn't "read between the lines" doctrine. and im still looking for for the verse(s).

And this was the same Paul who said that man came from woman, right after saying that the man is the head of the woman, then begging the question as to whether he is right or not.