Suicide

[Priestley]

Kain1334

what makes it selfish Priestley is the fact that during the act they think not of the possibility of someone around them being saddened by their death.

This is not based in fact. Rather, your reasoning proves the selfishness of people around them, i.e. "It will hurt me. I do not want to be hurt. Don't kill yourself". This does nothing but place an unnecessary further burden of guilt on the shoulders of the person who wants to commit suicide. A person who wants to commit suicide should never be guilted into not doing so.

Kain1334

(even though i know one of the thoughts that goes through their head is 'no one cares for me') that does not change the fact the act itself still hurts others, and it is up to us to show them that there are ppl that care, and that they have a use(which their other thought is usually 'i am useless' which is sometimes a cause of the first i mentioned)

Of course someone's suicide will hurt the people who have made an emotional connection with that person. It is an inevitability. This happens whether it is a suicide, an accident, a murder or any action that threatens the life of a person with whom others have an emotional connection.

What you fail to consider is the further steps in the minds of a suicidal person. It is not only a case of "no one loves me" and "no one has a use for me". It is a case of "no one loves me, therefore I won't/don't/can't love myself" and "no one has a use for me, therefore there is no need for me to exist", with varying numbers of steps of faulty logic between the first statement and the last. It is basing one's very existence on the attitudes of others, not basing one's existence on one's attitude of oneself. Ultimately, the key is in helping a suicidal person have a positive self-attitude. Unfortunately, you have to accept that this approach fits the definition of selfish in that it relates to the self.  

[zz1000zz]

The complete dismissal of suicide has always struck me as strange. Suicide itself cannot be considered a sin unless one would consider martyrdom a sin.

Here are some rationales which would justify suicide:

Quote:

I am terminally ill suffering a great deal. My continued existence is ruining the finances of my family. I have made peace and am ready to die.

I am the carrier of a highly infectious and deadly disease. Killing myself will prevent the deaths of many others.

I am suffering from Alzheimer's. Soon I will not be able to remember who I am, and I will require constant care just to exist in a nigh-vegetative state. This will be a great burden on others, and I will not exist anymore.

As these examples demonstrate, suicide need not be selfish. Perhaps you can argue suicide is a sin in some cases, but that is a weak argument which can be applied to practically anything.  

[Rsnbl Faith]

Priestley

This is not based in fact. Rather, your reasoning proves the selfishness of people around them, i.e. "It will hurt me. I do not want to be hurt. Don't kill yourself". This does nothing but place an unnecessary further burden of guilt on the shoulders of the person who wants to commit suicide. A person who wants to commit suicide should never be guilted into not doing so.

Priestley

Of course someone's suicide will hurt the people who have made an emotional connection with that person. It is an inevitability. This happens whether it is a suicide, an accident, a murder or any action that threatens the life of a person with whom others have an emotional connection.

I wasn't targetting on the others around the suicidal person, i was targetting on the suicidal person. And I've delt with ALOT of suicidal people, each one only thought of themselves and not the others around them, and each one thought no one cared and that there life was useless, void of meaning.

Priestley

What you fail to consider is the further steps in the minds of a suicidal person. It is not only a case of "no one loves me" and "no one has a use for me". It is a case of "no one loves me, therefore I won't/don't/can't love myself" and "no one has a use for me, therefore there is no need for me to exist", with varying numbers of steps of faulty logic between the first statement and the last. It is basing one's very existence on the attitudes of others, not basing one's existence on one's attitude of oneself. Ultimately, the key is in helping a suicidal person have a positive self-attitude. Unfortunately, you have to accept that this approach fits the definition of selfish in that it relates to the self.

They bring themselves down by using the attitudes of others around them, so you must show them different and raise them up and showing them that people do care, and that they do matter, that they do have a reason for life. I say this is the perfect time to share Christ with them and show them their true reason for life, what God wants for them, and not what they want for themselves.  

[Priestley]

Kain1334

Priestley

This is not based in fact. Rather, your reasoning proves the selfishness of people around them, i.e. "It will hurt me. I do not want to be hurt. Don't kill yourself". This does nothing but place an unnecessary further burden of guilt on the shoulders of the person who wants to commit suicide. A person who wants to commit suicide should never be guilted into not doing so.

Priestley

Of course someone's suicide will hurt the people who have made an emotional connection with that person. It is an inevitability. This happens whether it is a suicide, an accident, a murder or any action that threatens the life of a person with whom others have an emotional connection.

I wasn't targetting on the others around the suicidal person, i was targetting on the suicidal person. And I've delt with ALOT of suicidal people, each one only thought of themselves and not the others around them, and each one thought no one cared and that there life was useless, void of meaning.

You may have intended for your reasoning to strengthen your point that suicidal people are selfish. What your reasoning actually did was strengthen the point that the people surrounding them are selfish. This is made clear by you repeatedly directing our attentions towards the feelings of people who surround a suicidal person as though that were the solution to the problem, rather than dealing with the actual problem of the feelings of the suicidal person. Suicide is never about the feelings of others: it is about feelings about oneself. This is the only sense of the defintion of 'selfish' that suicide can fit. It is most certainly not the being inconsiderate of other people's feelings that makes it selfish, nor is upsetting others necessarily sinful. The connections you have made in your head are: Suicide = Upsetting Others = Inconsiderate = Selfish = Sinful

Kain1334

Priestley

What you fail to consider is the further steps in the minds of a suicidal person. It is not only a case of "no one loves me" and "no one has a use for me". It is a case of "no one loves me, therefore I won't/don't/can't love myself" and "no one has a use for me, therefore there is no need for me to exist", with varying numbers of steps of faulty logic between the first statement and the last. It is basing one's very existence on the attitudes of others, not basing one's existence on one's attitude of oneself. Ultimately, the key is in helping a suicidal person have a positive self-attitude. Unfortunately, you have to accept that this approach fits the definition of selfish in that it relates to the self.

They bring themselves down by using the attitudes of others around them, so you must show them different and raise them up and showing them that people do care, and that they do matter, that they do have a reason for life. I say this is the perfect time to share Christ with them and show them their true reason for life, what God wants for them, and not what they want for themselves.

This is doing exactly the same: using the attitudes of others around them to change the way that person feels. If the only source of love for them is external, it is most likely that they will fall into the same patterns of thought as before if those sources of love are no longer there. The problem is both solved and prevented for the future if a suicidal person learns to love themselves.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Priestley

This is doing exactly the same: using the attitudes of others around them to change the way that person feels. If the only source of love for them is external, it is most likely that they will fall into the same patterns of thought as before if those sources of love are no longer there. The problem is both solved and prevented for the future if a suicidal person learns to love themselves.

THIS  

[mangachan]

As strange as it sounds it goes into the realm of pride. God gives life, our lives and everything about us belong to Him and he does what he wants with them. When you take your life into your own hands like that you're challenging his right and authority over your life which is a huge insult to His omnipotence. It's the same thing as saying he doesn't know what he's doing and he isn't capable of getting you out of things.  

[Priestley]

mangachan

As strange as it sounds it goes into the realm of pride. God gives life, our lives and everything about us belong to Him and he does what he wants with them. When you take your life into your own hands like that you're challenging his right and authority over your life which is a huge insult to His omnipotence. It's the same thing as saying he doesn't know what he's doing and he isn't capable of getting you out of things.

Do you make decisions for yourself?  

[mangachan]

Priestley

mangachan

As strange as it sounds it goes into the realm of pride. God gives life, our lives and everything about us belong to Him and he does what he wants with them. When you take your life into your own hands like that you're challenging his right and authority over your life which is a huge insult to His omnipotence. It's the same thing as saying he doesn't know what he's doing and he isn't capable of getting you out of things.

Do you make decisions for yourself?

As in do I have free will? Of course. We all have the option of doing xyz. The point I was trying to make was that the things we do should be within the will of God. Doing anything outside of that is saying you know more than God.  

[Priestley]

mangachan

Priestley

mangachan

As strange as it sounds it goes into the realm of pride. God gives life, our lives and everything about us belong to Him and he does what he wants with them. When you take your life into your own hands like that you're challenging his right and authority over your life which is a huge insult to His omnipotence. It's the same thing as saying he doesn't know what he's doing and he isn't capable of getting you out of things.

Do you make decisions for yourself?

As in do I have free will? Of course. We all have the option of doing xyz. The point I was trying to make was that the things we do should be within the will of God. Doing anything outside of that is saying you know more than God.

If God has given us the ability to choose what to do with our lives then that would suggest that he has handed us rights and authority over ourselves at least in part, which suggests that rights and authority over ourselves are shared between us and God. It only so happens that our wills don't match up with God's will sometimes, but that is to be expected with such an arrangement. It does not necessarily follow that doing one's own will means that one is claiming one knows more than God. This is a non sequitur and is a logical fallacy.

As for suicide being about pride, if you had any idea of the mentality of a seriously suicidial person, you would know any sense of pride or love himself/herself is absent. That is the problem, as I have said previously in this thread.  

[mangachan]

Priestley

mangachan

Priestley

mangachan

As strange as it sounds it goes into the realm of pride. God gives life, our lives and everything about us belong to Him and he does what he wants with them. When you take your life into your own hands like that you're challenging his right and authority over your life which is a huge insult to His omnipotence. It's the same thing as saying he doesn't know what he's doing and he isn't capable of getting you out of things.

Do you make decisions for yourself?

As in do I have free will? Of course. We all have the option of doing xyz. The point I was trying to make was that the things we do should be within the will of God. Doing anything outside of that is saying you know more than God.

If God has given us the ability to choose what to do with our lives then that would suggest that he has handed us rights and authority over ourselves at least in part, which suggests that rights and authority over ourselves are shared between us and God. It only so happens that our wills don't match up with God's will sometimes, but that is to be expected with such an arrangement. It does not necessarily follow that doing one's own will means that one is claiming one knows more than God. This is a non sequitur and is a logical fallacy.

As for suicide being about pride, if you had any idea of the mentality of a seriously suicidial person, you would know any sense of pride or love himself/herself is absent. That is the problem, as I have said previously in this thread.

Who's authority do you think should count more though? All powerful all knowing being or humans who sometimes get so far into our messes that we can't even see a way out? Do you see where I'm going with this? God has a plan for us and knows what's best because he can see the future, etc,. IMO and experiance, not listening to God is nothing but saying that your way is better, even if you don't actually say it. I'm not talking about pride in the sense of "I'm better than you." It's actions that count. I hope my post is clear and you can understand where I'm coming from, I'll post more about this in the other thread.  

[Priestley]

mangachan

Priestley

mangachan

Priestley

mangachan

As strange as it sounds it goes into the realm of pride. God gives life, our lives and everything about us belong to Him and he does what he wants with them. When you take your life into your own hands like that you're challenging his right and authority over your life which is a huge insult to His omnipotence. It's the same thing as saying he doesn't know what he's doing and he isn't capable of getting you out of things.

Do you make decisions for yourself?

As in do I have free will? Of course. We all have the option of doing xyz. The point I was trying to make was that the things we do should be within the will of God. Doing anything outside of that is saying you know more than God.

If God has given us the ability to choose what to do with our lives then that would suggest that he has handed us rights and authority over ourselves at least in part, which suggests that rights and authority over ourselves are shared between us and God. It only so happens that our wills don't match up with God's will sometimes, but that is to be expected with such an arrangement. It does not necessarily follow that doing one's own will means that one is claiming one knows more than God. This is a non sequitur and is a logical fallacy.

As for suicide being about pride, if you had any idea of the mentality of a seriously suicidial person, you would know any sense of pride or love himself/herself is absent. That is the problem, as I have said previously in this thread.

Who's authority do you think should count more though?

Depends what you mean by 'count'. In a purely physical sense, it is whomever is in control of one's actions whose authority counts. We cannot act without making our bodies do things through sheer force of will.

However, it's common to appeal to a higher authority for help if one's will is not sufficient, whether it exists or not.

mangachan

All powerful all knowing being or humans who sometimes get so far into our messes that we can't even see a way out?

You assume that all actions without consulting God will be wrong actions that will "get [us] so far into our messes that we can't even see a way out". This is the responsibility that comes with being able to make one's own decisions.

mangachan

Do you see where I'm going with this? God has a plan for us and knows what's best because he can see the future, etc,. IMO and experiance, not listening to God is nothing but saying that your way is better, even if you don't actually say it.

Yes, I see where you're going with this. You are trying to force your opinion with faulty reasoning.

mangachan

I'm not talking about pride in the sense of "I'm better than you." It's actions that count.

I know what sense of pride you meant. However, you assume incorrectly that pride is the motivator behind the actions of everyone who acts without consulting God. I counter this by saying that you do not ask God's permission to eat. You eat when you are hungry. Pride is not the motivator in this case. Pride is not the motivator in serious cases of suicide.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Speaking of suicide, what you guys think about this?  

[Priestley]

Fushigi na Butterfly

Speaking of suicide, what you guys think about this?

The article deals with a number of topics relating to suicide as well as suicide itself. The topics include but aren't limited to assisted suicide, suicide pacts, mental capacity, depression, euthanasia, healthcare policies, associated professionalism, national law, international law, human rights, and degenerative and terminal illnesses.

Where would you like to start? xd  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

How about with mental capacity. The article talks about allowing completely healthy individuals dying alongside terminally ill loved ones. In this sense, wouldn't the suicide be selfish (as per the previous discussion), possibly even sinful?  

[zz1000zz]

Consider this reasoning:

Quote:

I am not interested in life. When I die I will go to heaven. I have no reason to live, so I will die now.

What about it would be a sin?