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Monergism

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:46 pm
Sir Priestley,

How can you interpret Romans 1:18-27 as a strict condemnation of temple prostitution? Its most certainly ridiculous!

Priestley
The entire passage from verses 18 to 27 is talking first about idolatry and then the worship of those idols through sexuality. The reasoning goes first from God being revealed through nature, to man seeing God in nature, to man deciding to worship nature rather than God, to God shaming man by letting it worship nature sexually. The passage is most certainly about temple prostitution.


This particular part of the chapter (Romans 1) discusses God's wrath on unrighteousness. Men would rather worship the creation rather than the Creator which lead themselves into God's wrath. God punished them by leaving them over to their own corruption. In their own depravity, God left them to lusts of their hearts to impurity because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie. Women exchanged natural sexual relations for those that are contrary to nature that God intended. Likewise, men likewise gave up natural sexual relations with women. They exchange the truth of what is natural that dwelled in their conscience and heart. So then, God left them to a debased mind to do what is unrighteous. Today, man still does that very same unrighteous evil before God.

There is nothing in the context of "God shaming man by letting them worship nature sexually" or suggesting prostitution. Eisegesis is a bad method to use.

Ph.D Thomas E. Schmidt
Romans 1:26-27. The remaining passage appears to be an unequivocal condemnation of homosexuality. While many modern revisionists simply disagree with Paul or discount his proscription as applying only to prostitution or pederasty, some have attempted to reinterpret the passage as tacit approval of homosexuality. The argument is that Paul portrays homosexual Acts as impure but carefully avoids the language of sin; he intends merely to distinguish a Gentile practice considered by Jews to be "unclean" in order to draw Jews (or "weaker brethren") into his subsequent explanation of the gospel. Careful investigation of the passage, however, shows this explanation to be untenable.

Paul's general purpose in the context (Rom 1:18-32) is to show the need for the gospel in the Gentile world. As a result of idolatry, God "gave them over" to all kinds of sinful behavior. The trifold structure of the passage is a rhetorical device to drive home the point: a general complaint (vv. 24-25), consideration of a specific vice (vv. 26-27), and a culminating list of various vices (vv. 28-32). The distinction between the second and third sections may follow another Greek-styled distinction of sins of passion and sins of the unfit mind.

Paul is accused of everything from extreme prejudice to repressed homosexual urges for choosing same-gender sex as his focus in verses 26-27. But the scarcity of other references and the use of impersonal, rhetorical language here suggests, on the contrary, considerable detachment. The choice of homosexuality in particular is due to Paul's need to find a visible sign of humankind's fundamental rejection of God's creation at the very core of personhood. The numerous allusions to the creation account in the passage suggest that creation theology was foremost in Paul's mind in forming the passage.

Paul's terminology in the passage clearly denotes sin and not mere ritual impurity. The context is introduced by the threat of wrath against "godlessness and wickedness" (v. 18 ). Those in view in verses 26-27 have been given over to "passions, " a word group that elsewhere in Romans and consistently in Paul's writings connotes sin. Words like "impurity" (v. 24) and "indecent" (v. 27; cf. "degrading, " v. 24) had in Paul's time extended their meaning beyond ritual purity to moral and especially sexual wrongdoing. To do that which is "unnatural" (vv. 26-27) or "contrary to nature" was common parlance in contemporary literature for sexual perversion and especially homosexual Acts. Paul uses several expressions here that are more typical of Gentile moral writers not because he is attempting to soften his condemnation but because he wishes to find words peculiarly suited to expose the sinfulness of the Gentile world in its own terms.

The substance of Paul's proscription of homosexuality is significant in several respects. First, he mentions lesbian relations first and links lesbianism to male homosexuality. This is unusual if not unique in the ancient world, and it demonstrates that Paul's concern is less with progeniture than with rebellion against sexual differentiation or full created personhood. Second, Paul speaks in terms of mutual consent (e.g., "inflamed with lust for one another, " v. 27), effectively including Acts other than rape and pederasty in the prohibition. Third, the passage describes corporate as well as individual rebellion, a fact that may have implications for modern discussions of "orientation." In other words, although Paul does not address the question here directly, it is reasonable to suppose that he would consign the orientation toward homosexual Acts to the same category as heterosexual orientation toward adultery or fornication. The "natural" or "fleshly" proclivity is a specific byproduct of the corporate human rebellion and in no way justifies itself or the activity following from that proclivity. On the basis of any of these three implications, it is legitimate to use the word "homosexuality" as it is conceived in the modern world when speaking of Romans 1 and, by cautious extension, when speaking of the related biblical passages.

Responses to Paul's Proscription. The discussion does not end with the conclusion that Paul condemns homosexuality. Some argue that a modern understanding of "natural" differs from Paul's and requires that we absolve those who discover rather than choose a homosexual orientation. These, it is argued, should be seen as victims, or simply different, and our definition of allowable sexual activity expanded accordingly. The major problem with this response is that it shifts the meaning of "natural" from Paul's notion of "that which is in accord with creation" to the popular notion of "that which one has a desire to do." But deeply ingrained anger does not justify murder, nor does deeply ingrained greed justify theft or materialism, nor does the deeply ingrained desire of many heterosexuals for multiple partners justify promiscuity. Desire in all of these areas, chosen or not, must come under the reign of Christ. The action in question must be considered not in terms of its source in the person but in light of the relevant biblical principles. These principles often involve denial of deeply ingrained desires, for the heterosexual who desires multiple partners no less than for the homosexual who laments the option of celibacy.
 
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 1:15 am
Actually if I may interject here, there are at least two scriptures that specify that homosexuality is wrong from my NIV bible.

1 Corinthians 6:9 9.) Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultury, or are male prostitutes, or (practice homosexuality).

1 Timothy 1:10 10.) The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who (practice homosexuality), or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching.

Here would be a good reason why I follow my beliefs.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 7.) And God provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, 8.) in flaming fire, bringing judgement on those who don't know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 9.) They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever seperated from the Lord and from his glorious power. 10.) When he comes on that day, he will receive glory from his holy people-praise from all who believe. And this includes you, for you believed what we told you about him.
11.) So we keep on praying for you, asking our God to enable you to live a life worthy of his call. May he give you the power to accomplish all the good things your faith prompts you to do. 12.) Then the name of our Lord Jesus will be honored along with him. This is all made possible because of the grace of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ.  

Zuleus


zz1000zz
Crew

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:55 pm
Monergism
Sir Priestley,

How can you interpret Romans 1:18-27 as a strict condemnation of temple prostitution? Its most certainly ridiculous!

Priestley
The entire passage from verses 18 to 27 is talking first about idolatry and then the worship of those idols through sexuality. The reasoning goes first from God being revealed through nature, to man seeing God in nature, to man deciding to worship nature rather than God, to God shaming man by letting it worship nature sexually. The passage is most certainly about temple prostitution.


This particular part of the chapter (Romans 1) discusses God's wrath on unrighteousness. Men would rather worship the creation rather than the Creator which lead themselves into God's wrath. God punished them by leaving them over to their own corruption. In their own depravity, God left them to lusts of their hearts to impurity because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie. Women exchanged natural sexual relations for those that are contrary to nature that God intended. Likewise, men likewise gave up natural sexual relations with women. They exchange the truth of what is natural that dwelled in their conscience and heart. So then, God left them to a debased mind to do what is unrighteous. Today, man still does that very same unrighteous evil before God.

There is nothing in the context of "God shaming man by letting them worship nature sexually" or suggesting prostitution. Eisegesis is a bad method to use.


I do not know why Priestly said this was an issue of temple prostitution. It is an issue of pagan rituals and the like, but prostitution was not an issue. That said, the quoted material you offered does not show the Bible passage as condemning homosexuality.

Beyond that, it shows a poor understanding of the language of Romans. For example, the word "unnatural" is a moral condemnation. The original text used the phrase "para physin," which is not a moral condemnation (as can been seen by its use in 1 Corinthians 11:14 and Romans 11:24). Given the lack of any reference for the quoted material, as well as such an obvious error existing in it, I cannot take it seriously.

Zuleus
Actually if I may interject here, there are at least two scriptures that specify that homosexuality is wrong from my NIV bible.


Both of those passages have been discussed in this guild before. In both passages the word "arsenokoitai" was translated into homosexuality. There is no justification for this translation, meaning these passages do not condemn homosexuality. As with most verses supposedly condemning homosexuality, the condemnation does not exist in the original text.  
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:06 am
Monergism
Sir Priestley,

How can you interpret Romans 1:18-27 as a strict condemnation of temple prostitution? Its most certainly ridiculous!

Priestley
The entire passage from verses 18 to 27 is talking first about idolatry and then the worship of those idols through sexuality. The reasoning goes first from God being revealed through nature, to man seeing God in nature, to man deciding to worship nature rather than God, to God shaming man by letting it worship nature sexually. The passage is most certainly about temple prostitution.


This particular part of the chapter (Romans 1) discusses God's wrath on unrighteousness. Men would rather worship the creation rather than the Creator which lead themselves into God's wrath. God punished them by leaving them over to their own corruption. In their own depravity, God left them to lusts of their hearts to impurity because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie. Women exchanged natural sexual relations for those that are contrary to nature that God intended. Likewise, men likewise gave up natural sexual relations with women. They exchange the truth of what is natural that dwelled in their conscience and heart. So then, God left them to a debased mind to do what is unrighteous. Today, man still does that very same unrighteous evil before God.

There is nothing in the context of "God shaming man by letting them worship nature sexually" or suggesting prostitution. Eisegesis is a bad method to use.

If it were eisegesis, I would understand your objections, but it is not. Repeating what I have already said in words more appropriate to your understanding neither furthers nor disproves my point. It only creates the illusion that we are on opposite sides and that one of us must be right and the other wrong. The fact is that you and I are not divided on the issue.

The swiftness that Paul's writing goes from idol worship to sexual depravity and the overlapping of such writing means that one cannot completely ignore the possibility that it was to do with, for example, temple prostitution and the uses of sex in cult worship. Not only that, but Paul is even said to have written Romans while in Corinth, where such activities were recorded to have taken place (http://www.goodhopemcc.org/ghmcc/content/view/464/332/ - particularly the second footnote). It is a common theme in all of Paul's letters that he writes about issues affecting each church.

Please note that I did not say that the passage was condemning temple prostitution exclusively but intended to mention it as one practice of many which fits closest to the subjects in this section of Paul's writings.
 

Priestley


Mental Self

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:18 pm
I think that almost everyone will agree that we as humans have a inherit tendency to sin. Homosexuals have these same tendency to sin as us, plus the sin of Homosexuality.
Just as we need to resist sinning in the common sins, they should also resist that extra tendency to sin.  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:20 pm
Mental Self
I think that almost everyone will agree that we as humans have a inherit tendency to sin. Homosexuals have these same tendency to sin as us, plus the sin of Homosexuality.
Just as we need to resist sinning in the common sins, they should also resist that extra tendency to sin.


Please do not post without reading. As has already been discussed in this topic, there is nothing in the Bible which says homosexuality is a sin.  

zz1000zz
Crew


Mental Self

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:08 pm
zz1000zz
Mental Self
I think that almost everyone will agree that we as humans have a inherit tendency to sin. Homosexuals have these same tendency to sin as us, plus the sin of Homosexuality.
Just as we need to resist sinning in the common sins, they should also resist that extra tendency to sin.


Please do not post without reading. As has already been discussed in this topic, there is nothing in the Bible which says homosexuality is a sin.


While it may not say explicitly that it is a sin, it can still be a sin.
As I understand it, sin is anything to goes against what God wants.
As is was mentioned, God obviously didn't make it so that two men or two women, can be lovers.  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:35 am
Mental Self
zz1000zz
Mental Self
I think that almost everyone will agree that we as humans have a inherit tendency to sin. Homosexuals have these same tendency to sin as us, plus the sin of Homosexuality.
Just as we need to resist sinning in the common sins, they should also resist that extra tendency to sin.


Please do not post without reading. As has already been discussed in this topic, there is nothing in the Bible which says homosexuality is a sin.


While it may not say explicitly that it is a sin, it can still be a sin.
As I understand it, sin is anything to goes against what God wants.
As is was mentioned, God obviously didn't make it so that two men or two women, can be lovers.


Two people of the same gender can be lovers as easily as two people of different genders. There is nothing in the Bible which would indicate homosexuality is any less pleasing to God than heterosexuality.

If you wish to discuss any reasons you believe would indicate otherwise, you are welcome to. However, I would ask you to explain your reasons, rather than just say things are "obviously" that way.  

zz1000zz
Crew


Mental Self

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:49 am
zz1000zz
Mental Self
zz1000zz
Mental Self
I think that almost everyone will agree that we as humans have a inherit tendency to sin. Homosexuals have these same tendency to sin as us, plus the sin of Homosexuality.
Just as we need to resist sinning in the common sins, they should also resist that extra tendency to sin.


Please do not post without reading. As has already been discussed in this topic, there is nothing in the Bible which says homosexuality is a sin.


While it may not say explicitly that it is a sin, it can still be a sin.
As I understand it, sin is anything to goes against what God wants.
As is was mentioned, God obviously didn't make it so that two men or two women, can be lovers.


Two people of the same gender can be lovers as easily as two people of different genders. There is nothing in the Bible which would indicate homosexuality is any less pleasing to God than heterosexuality.

If you wish to discuss any reasons you believe would indicate otherwise, you are welcome to. However, I would ask you to explain your reasons, rather than just say things are "obviously" that way.

I said obviously because two men can not have a child, and two women can not have a child. If homosexual relationships were equally pleasing to God as Heterosexual, would he not make it so they could have a child?  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:12 pm
Mental Self
zz1000zz
Mental Self
zz1000zz
Mental Self
I think that almost everyone will agree that we as humans have a inherit tendency to sin. Homosexuals have these same tendency to sin as us, plus the sin of Homosexuality.
Just as we need to resist sinning in the common sins, they should also resist that extra tendency to sin.


Please do not post without reading. As has already been discussed in this topic, there is nothing in the Bible which says homosexuality is a sin.


While it may not say explicitly that it is a sin, it can still be a sin.
As I understand it, sin is anything to goes against what God wants.
As is was mentioned, God obviously didn't make it so that two men or two women, can be lovers.


Two people of the same gender can be lovers as easily as two people of different genders. There is nothing in the Bible which would indicate homosexuality is any less pleasing to God than heterosexuality.

If you wish to discuss any reasons you believe would indicate otherwise, you are welcome to. However, I would ask you to explain your reasons, rather than just say things are "obviously" that way.

I said obviously because two men can not have a child, and two women can not have a child. If homosexual relationships were equally pleasing to God as Heterosexual, would he not make it so they could have a child?

There are certain species of life which reproduce entirely by themselves. Sexual reproduction is another one of the methods by which species reproduce. In seahorses, the females deposit their eggs inside the males to be fertilized, rather than the males depositing their sperm inside the females. In humans and multitudes of other mammals, the opposite is true. Some species of animal are both sexes at once. That's the way it is. That's the way things work for each species.

Whether it does or does not happen bears no relevance to whether God does or does not want it to happen. I could punch you: God could have wanted that to have happened or could not have wanted that to have happened, but it still happened. You never got that interview for that job you wanted: God could have wanted that to have happened or could not have wanted that to have happened, but you still never got that interview.
 

Priestley


Mental Self

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:32 pm
Priestley
There are certain species of life which reproduce entirely by themselves. Sexual reproduction is another one of the methods by which species reproduce. In seahorses, the females deposit their eggs inside the males to be fertilized, rather than the males depositing their sperm inside the females. In humans and multitudes of other mammals, the opposite is true. Some species of animal are both sexes at once. That's the way it is. That's the way things work for each species.

Whether it does or does not happen bears no relevance to whether God does or does not want it to happen. I could punch you: God could have wanted that to have happened or could not have wanted that to have happened, but it still happened. You never got that interview for that job you wanted: God could have wanted that to have happened or could not have wanted that to have happened, but you still never got that interview.

That is a good point, but i disagree with comparing of human morals and animal instincts.  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:13 am
I 2nd that notion. Angels have wings but that doesn't make human beings part bird. Animals are not designed the same similar fashion as human beings. Each animal has different instincts, but human beings think a lot more in a sophisticated pattern while only producing in one way (a man and a woman.) God made it this way or he would have made man asexual and there would have been no reason for females. What I find fascinating is that even though we come from two different human beings *hint* *hint*, we all have different characteristics that seperate us from one another forming the process of individualism.  

Zuleus


Zuleus

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:31 am
Another good reason why not to accept homosexuality is the story of Sodom (or sodomy) & Gomorrah. Lot was brought to safety out of this sinful city and the it was burned to the ground by fire & brimstone.

Genesis 19:4--But before they retired for the night, all the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house (5.) They shouted to Lot, "where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!"
(6.) So Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind them. (7.) "Please, my brothers,"don't do such a wicked thing. (8.)Look, I have two virgin daughters. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do with them as you wish. But please, leave these men alone, for they are my guests and are under my protection."
(9.)"Stand back!" they shouted. "This fellow came to town as an outsider, and now he's acting like our judge! We'll treat you far worse than those other men!" And they lunged toward Lot to break down the door.

Now if someone could explain to me why angels came to Lot and men young and old came to have sex (with whom they may have presumed to be men and not angels) in Sodom? Why would Lot say "Please, my brothers," don't do such a wicked thing?" And yet now our society is tolerating this?  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:16 am
First off, there are people who are asexual. I am friends with one such person. She is not sexually attracted to anyone, she does not think about sex, she finds sex to be utterly silly and ridiculous. Asexuality exists.

As for your example- it is difficult to tell what about the situation God finds to be wicked. Is it the fact that the men of the town want to have sex with total strangers that God deems sinful? Is it the fact that this offense is directly against God (His angels representing Himself)? We don't know- we're never told. There is also an issue with this translation. Older translations say "bring out the men so that we may know them." It makes perfect sense that, in this time period, the people of the town would want to know who Lot had in his house- they could be enemies, spies of another nation looking to overtake them. Oftentimes in the Bible, the verb "to know" is meant in a sexual way, but here it could go either way. I'd have to know what the original original text said. Anyone who has access to or knows what the original language text said can feel free to enlighten me.
 

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Mental Self

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:18 am
First off, there is a differance between asexual and nonsexual, asexual implies that you are self reproductive.

On the other topic, you are right about your definitions of "know", but if the men weren't using it in a sexual way, then why did Lot offer his virgin daughters to the crowd in order to protect the men in his house.
In this situation the common definition of know doesn't make since.  
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