Just what is a witch anyway?

[Diamond Leaf Clover]

I'm so confused... gonk
So....would practices such as tarot and dowsing be considered witchcraft? I used to do both when I was still in Australia, but I didn't think I was a witch (Probably because I wasn't very good, and I didn't want to refer to myself using any kind of label in case I gave it a bad name xp )

Sorry, another question: if I were to pray to a god/goddess, would that be considered witchcraft, or would this be included in the traditions that already have their own names for such practices? I have prayed to Wepwawet before (I'm probably going to get in trouble for doing this, but it was a prayer as in, 'hold-onto-my-ankh-pendant-and-say-a-small-prayer-in-my-head' type of prayer) but would this be considered witchcraft, or fall under another category (specifically, Kemetic) ?

(I'll try and keep up with the conversation better from now on. 3nodding )  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Diamond Leaf Clover

I'm so confused... gonk
So....would practices such as tarot and dowsing be considered witchcraft? I used to do both when I was still in Australia, but I didn't think I was a witch (Probably because I wasn't very good, and I didn't want to refer to myself using any kind of label in case I gave it a bad name xp )

Sorry, another question: if I were to pray to a god/goddess, would that be considered witchcraft, or would this be included in the traditions that already have their own names for such practices? I have prayed to Wepwawet before (I'm probably going to get in trouble for doing this, but it was a prayer as in, 'hold-onto-my-ankh-pendant-and-say-a-small-prayer-in-my-head' type of prayer) but would this be considered witchcraft, or fall under another category (specifically, Kemetic) ?

(I'll try and keep up with the conversation better from now on. 3nodding )

Not knowing anything about tarot myself, and holding little interest in it, I'll address the second half.

I'd be more inclined to say it wasn't necessarily witchcraft of itself, but exactly what you called it "a prayer".  

[Diamond Leaf Clover]

Cyrus the Elder

Diamond Leaf Clover

I'm so confused... gonk
So....would practices such as tarot and dowsing be considered witchcraft? I used to do both when I was still in Australia, but I didn't think I was a witch (Probably because I wasn't very good, and I didn't want to refer to myself using any kind of label in case I gave it a bad name xp )

Sorry, another question: if I were to pray to a god/goddess, would that be considered witchcraft, or would this be included in the traditions that already have their own names for such practices? I have prayed to Wepwawet before (I'm probably going to get in trouble for doing this, but it was a prayer as in, 'hold-onto-my-ankh-pendant-and-say-a-small-prayer-in-my-head' type of prayer) but would this be considered witchcraft, or fall under another category (specifically, Kemetic) ?

(I'll try and keep up with the conversation better from now on. 3nodding )

Not knowing anything about tarot myself, and holding little interest in it, I'll address the second half.

I'd be more inclined to say it wasn't necessarily witchcraft of itself, but exactly what you called it "a prayer".

Thank you for clarifying that. heart

Argh, your response made me think of another question. (Not saying I will do this anytime in the future-I need to learn more so I don't do anything wrong) So if I were to do a 'ritual' (for lack of a better word) like, using incense, tools, etc, that would be more in the way of 'witchcraft' or would that still be considered 'prayer,' considering you are still doing what you were beforehand, just a bit more involved by using specific means? (Or did I just answer my own question?)  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Diamond Leaf Clover

Thank you for clarifying that. heart

Argh, your response made me think of another question. (Not saying I will do this anytime in the future-I need to learn more so I don't do anything wrong) So if I were to do a 'ritual' (for lack of a better word) like, using incense, tools, etc, that would be more in the way of 'witchcraft' or would that still be considered 'prayer,' considering you are still doing what you were beforehand, just a bit more involved by using specific means? (Or did I just answer my own question?)

Hmm, it'd depend on the specifics to be honest. If it's just a petition to a god, or some such, I'd say it falls on the prayer spectrum. If it's meant to do something of its own accord, I'd say it's witchcraft.

But I'm probably not the best person to ask as I tend to have a somewhat...dodgy definition of what I would and would not consider witchcraft ninja  

[Diamond Leaf Clover]

Cyrus the Elder

Diamond Leaf Clover

Thank you for clarifying that. heart

Argh, your response made me think of another question. (Not saying I will do this anytime in the future-I need to learn more so I don't do anything wrong) So if I were to do a 'ritual' (for lack of a better word) like, using incense, tools, etc, that would be more in the way of 'witchcraft' or would that still be considered 'prayer,' considering you are still doing what you were beforehand, just a bit more involved by using specific means? (Or did I just answer my own question?)

Hmm, it'd depend on the specifics to be honest. If it's just a petition to a god, or some such, I'd say it falls on the prayer spectrum. If it's meant to do something of its own accord, I'd say it's witchcraft.

But I'm probably not the best person to ask as I tend to have a somewhat...dodgy definition of what I would and would not consider witchcraft ninja

By 'something of its own accord,' do you mean if I was trying to do something (sorry, that is horribly unspecific) and was asking a god to preside over what I was doing, then that would be witchcraft?

That's okay, I'm sure your definition of witchcraft is a lot better defined that mine! 3nodding  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Diamond Leaf Clover

By 'something of its own accord,' do you mean if I was trying to do something (sorry, that is horribly unspecific) and was asking a god to preside over what I was doing, then that would be witchcraft?

That's okay, I'm sure your definition of witchcraft is a lot better defined that mine! 3nodding

Something along those lines. Or simultaneously petitioning a deity to do something, with the added effect of the act influencing the desired outcome itself.

Generally, I'm of the opinion that when the will is moved out of your hands, it ceases to be witchcraft. For instance, solely petitioning a deity to do something for you.  

[Diamond Leaf Clover]

Cyrus the Elder

Diamond Leaf Clover

By 'something of its own accord,' do you mean if I was trying to do something (sorry, that is horribly unspecific) and was asking a god to preside over what I was doing, then that would be witchcraft?

That's okay, I'm sure your definition of witchcraft is a lot better defined that mine! 3nodding

Something along those lines. Or simultaneously petitioning a deity to do something, with the added effect of the act influencing the desired outcome itself.

Generally, I'm of the opinion that when the will is moved out of your hands, it ceases to be witchcraft. For instance, solely petitioning a deity to do something for you.

Okay, your definition makes that easier for me to understand. (Ah, I can see where this could lead to grey areas-like when I asked if Tarot is witchcraft or not...hmmm...I'll have to read up on that.)  

[TeaDidikai]

Diamond Leaf Clover

So....would practices such as tarot and dowsing be considered witchcraft?

Tarot as a tradition stemmed from Christian tradition. In fact- there is an amazing system that uses the Tarot as a flash card-divination based on the Bible. Neat stuff. That said- it being a Christian-European tradition and not a Pre-Christian one, I'd argue that it can't even remotely be considered witchcraft as it wasn't a folk practice- it was a tool of the educated elite at it's inception. That isn't to say that it cannot become part of a witchcraft tradition by virtue of it's application as a tool.

Look at it this way- is cooking your food so you don't die from food born illness witchcraft in and of itself?

Quote:

Sorry, another question: if I were to pray to a god/goddess, would that be considered witchcraft, or would this be included in the traditions that already have their own names for such practices?

I never consider prayers to be witchcraft.

Cyrus the Elder

I'd be more inclined to say it wasn't necessarily witchcraft of itself, but exactly what you called it "a prayer".

3nodding

Diamond Leaf Clover

So if I were to do a 'ritual' (for lack of a better word) like, using incense, tools, etc, that would be more in the way of 'witchcraft' or would that still be considered 'prayer,' considering you are still doing what you were beforehand, just a bit more involved by using specific means? (Or did I just answer my own question?)

Ritual is not synonymous with witchcraft. I mean- Catholic Mass is ritual after all. Gnostic Mass is ritual too. That doesn't make them witchcraft. Nor would it automatically make it a prayer.

Ritual can include both or neither.

Cyrus the Elder

Hmm, it'd depend on the specifics to be honest. If it's just a petition to a god, or some such, I'd say it falls on the prayer spectrum. If it's meant to do something of its own accord, I'd say it's witchcraft.

But I'm probably not the best person to ask as I tend to have a somewhat...dodgy definition of what I would and would not consider witchcraft ninja

I'd be arguing that we're talking about three very different concepts- one of which can include both or neither of the other two.

For example, there are honorific rituals I participate in that have no prayers- and I don't practice witchcraft so...

Diamond Leaf Clover

By 'something of its own accord,' do you mean if I was trying to do something (sorry, that is horribly unspecific) and was asking a god to preside over what I was doing, then that would be witchcraft?

I'm not sure why that would be considered witchcraft myself.

Perhaps it would help if we knew what your tradition was?

Cyrus the Elder

Generally, I'm of the opinion that when the will is moved out of your hands, it ceases to be witchcraft. For instance, solely petitioning a deity to do something for you.

Interesting. Could you explain this a bit more?

I'm trying to sync up your understanding of witchcraft and mine and I don't think I can without more information.

If you had to give a quick definition of witchcraft off the top of your head that we could refine through discussion and debate- what would it be?  

[Cyrus the Elder]

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

Generally, I'm of the opinion that when the will is moved out of your hands, it ceases to be witchcraft. For instance, solely petitioning a deity to do something for you.

Interesting. Could you explain this a bit more?

I'm trying to sync up your understanding of witchcraft and mine and I don't think I can without more information.

If you had to give a quick definition of witchcraft off the top of your head that we could refine through discussion and debate- what would it be?

I'm a bit tired, so this might not come out too great ninja

Explain a bit more...hmm. Anything which is a form of working with one's own will via metaphysical means to achieve a specified outcome.

What I wouldn't include as witchcraft would be, for instance, anything that shifts the will onto another entity. Whilst this wouldn't necessarily include such things as, say, summoning of itself, the exception would include what you petition the entity to do afterwards. Invocation, for instance, may very well be witchcraft depending on how it is specifically achieved, however, what the entity would do afterwards wouldn't be witchcraft of itself.

Hence why tarot is one of those grey areas, although that has a fair bit to do with my ignorance of it too, and thus my lack of being able to classify whether the will itself has shifted or not.  

[TeaDidikai]

I think I see the problem.

I don't tend to use witchcraft/witch in a way that can be applied externally to another's tradition. I consider it to have the similar problem that the word Shaman has in that regard.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

TeaDidikai

I think I see the problem.

I don't tend to use witchcraft/witch in a way that can be applied externally to another's tradition. I consider it to have the similar problem that the word Shaman has in that regard.

I'd say it depends on three things at the core. Context, specifics, outcome. Rituals as honorifics, for instance, I wouldn't necessarily consider witchcraft, yet depending on the three previously mentioned things, it could be.

I try not to define X or Y as witchcraft, unless I have a perfectly contextual understanding of X or Y. If someone asks me "Do you think X is witchcraft" I'd answer, and probably toss in a short disclaimer that I may or may not be correct, as I can only truly comment on that which I am familiar with.

So whilst I may see something as witchcraft, I acknowledge that I could be completely and utterly wrong 3nodding

Edit: I'll probably throw this into my pathways thread at some point ninja  

[TeaDidikai]

Cyrus the Elder

I'd say it depends on three things at the core. Context, specifics, outcome. Rituals as honorifics, for instance, I wouldn't necessarily consider witchcraft, yet depending on the three previously mentioned things, it could be.

Makes me twitchy. sweatdrop

Quote:

I try not to define X or Y as witchcraft, unless I have a perfectly contextual understanding of X or Y. If someone asks me "Do you think X is witchcraft" I'd answer, and probably toss in a short disclaimer that I may or may not be correct, as I can only truly comment on that which I am familiar with.

So whilst I may see something as witchcraft, I acknowledge that I could be completely and utterly wrong 3nodding

Yeah- see, I like things to be less subjective than that. I mean, at a glance based on your response I could pop up with an example of an incantation within a ritual designed to have a Priest transmute one thing into another. It's lack of context doesn't change it's nature- so I'm not sure why I would be able to argue if a Catholic Priest does it, it's not witchcraft but when someone like DB did it, it would be.

Quote:

Edit: I'll probably throw this into my pathways thread at some point ninja

Spiff.  

[Recursive Paradox]

@Cyrus:

I actually tend to dislike words that have a given specific context they apply in being applied to me through somewhat subjective reasoning.

There are a few people in the GD witchcraft thread that have insisted that I am a witch using a sort of general context based subjective viewpoint and it is... irritating.

I'm an energy channeler and an Etherist. Neither of these really mesh with what witchcraft is and to lump people like me into that category really reduces the usefulness of the word.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

TeaDidikai

Cyrus the Elder

I'd say it depends on three things at the core. Context, specifics, outcome. Rituals as honorifics, for instance, I wouldn't necessarily consider witchcraft, yet depending on the three previously mentioned things, it could be.

Makes me twitchy. sweatdrop

I've been told I have that effect ninja

Quote:

Quote:

I try not to define X or Y as witchcraft, unless I have a perfectly contextual understanding of X or Y. If someone asks me "Do you think X is witchcraft" I'd answer, and probably toss in a short disclaimer that I may or may not be correct, as I can only truly comment on that which I am familiar with.

So whilst I may see something as witchcraft, I acknowledge that I could be completely and utterly wrong 3nodding

Yeah- see, I like things to be less subjective than that. I mean, at a glance based on your response I could pop up with an example of an incantation within a ritual designed to have a Priest transmute one thing into another. It's lack of context doesn't change it's nature- so I'm not sure why I would be able to argue if a Catholic Priest does it, it's not witchcraft but when someone like DB did it, it would be.

This is where sleep deprivation starts to thwack me over the head screaming "IT'S 4:25AM GO TO ******** SLEEP"

I'm not trying to be subjective or anything, it's more a matter of "Even if it looks like X, I need to know if it quacks like X and walks like X". Something may appear to be witchcraft to me, yet, at its core, wouldn't meet the criteria I'd apply to it. For instance, rituals as honorifics may appear, to me, to be witchcraft, however, when looked at in proper context (why is this being done? Why is it being done the specific way it's being done? etc.) it may very well not be. Intent and reasons behind something can change what that something is to the point where it's not what it appears to be on the external.

In short, I guess what I'm trying to say is, I try not to judge books by their covers. Unless it reads "Silver Ravenwolf" on the cover, then I'm going to set fire to it ninja  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Recursive Paradox

@Cyrus:

I actually tend to dislike words that have a given specific context they apply in being applied to me through somewhat subjective reasoning.

There are a few people in the GD witchcraft thread that have insisted that I am a witch using a sort of general context based subjective viewpoint and it is... irritating.

I'm an energy channeler and an Etherist. Neither of these really mesh with what witchcraft is and to lump people like me into that category really reduces the usefulness of the word.

sweatdrop I think...there might have been a slight miscommunication in one of my last posts.

Context is important, not so I can subjectively brand things, but so that I can view traditions from their own points of view, see why they do or do not define something as witchcraft, and then judge based upon that. If that makes any sense sweatdrop