Abortion Made Simple

[Priestley]

UnfaithfulBeans

OK guys, im just wondering...
If this fetus or human DNA is just that: a fetus or human DNA; where does the soul come into play?
Is it leared in life?
or given at birth?
or perhaps, maybe God gives it at conception?
Just wondering...

Well, for me personally, I can't remember anything before about the age of three or four years of age. I'm pretty sure I was conscious of things before then, I just can't remember. I base this on the fact that I've experienced babies younger than that responding to stimuli like sound and movement.  

[zz1000zz]

Fushigi na Butterfly

Personally, I've always realized that's what I was saying. "Murder is okay sometimes." God clearly condoned it in the Bible, for His purposes, eventually bringing good from evil, instead of repaying evil for good.

I do not remember God ever condoning murder. It is important to remember killing and murder are two different things.

Fushigi na Butterfly

I will always feel abortion is murder, and I will always feel saddened by its presence in our world. But I won't question God's ability to turn it into something beneficial for the individuals involved.

I have always found abortion to be distasteful. I do not like the idea. However, I cannot justify calling it a sin without a biblical reason, and I cannot find that.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

zz1000zz

Fushigi na Butterfly

Personally, I've always realized that's what I was saying. "Murder is okay sometimes." God clearly condoned it in the Bible, for His purposes, eventually bringing good from evil, instead of repaying evil for good.

I do not remember God ever condoning murder. It is important to remember killing and murder are two different things.

Okay, you're right, I misspoke (mistyped?). God condones killing- not necessarily murder.

Quote:

Fushigi na Butterfly

I will always feel abortion is murder, and I will always feel saddened by its presence in our world. But I won't question God's ability to turn it into something beneficial for the individuals involved.

I have always found abortion to be distasteful. I do not like the idea. However, I cannot justify calling it a sin without a biblical reason, and I cannot find that.

To be prideful is a sin. At least a good handful of abortions are done out of selfish concerns- therein lies the sin.  

[zz1000zz]

Practically any action can be a sin depending on the reason it is done. I certainly would not disagree with some abortions being sinful, but that is no condemnation of the practice in general.  

[Kazydi]

zz1000zz

Pro-life activists claim abortion is murder. From this, abortion is a sin. For an abortion to be murder, two things must be true:

Quote:

1) A fetus must be killed.
2) A fetus must be a human.

The first is self-evident. The second is not true. A fetus is not a human, thus abortion cannot be murder. Ergo, abortion is not a sin.

If that's not a human being in your womb, then what the heck is it? Who are we to decide what counts as life and what isn't?  

[Priestley]

Kazydi

zz1000zz

Pro-life activists claim abortion is murder. From this, abortion is a sin. For an abortion to be murder, two things must be true:

Quote:

1) A fetus must be killed.
2) A fetus must be a human.

The first is self-evident. The second is not true. A fetus is not a human, thus abortion cannot be murder. Ergo, abortion is not a sin.

If that's not a human being in your womb, then what the heck is it? Who are we to decide what counts as life and what isn't?

The noun 'being' comes from the verb 'to be'. Once something has sentience, that is, it is aware of itself, it is a 'being'.

Have you ever heard the phrase "I think, therefore I am"?  

[Jessy_4 26 2008]

My opinion is that abortions shouldn't be used as birth control, if you had sex, you should have had a plan made in case you got pregnant. You can't say "Well, if I get 'knocked up' I'll just go have an abortion and do it again!" that's wrong. I'm pro-choice in that I think if the unborn baby is a product of rape or incest the mother should have the option to have an abortion. If you want to here my arguments about these qualifications, PM me, they are rather lengthy..and are off-topic because that isn't what this thread is about.

On the definition of whether a fetus is human, I tend to feel it is. I can't justify this further than anyone else has tried to, but it's my belief. It grows so rapidly in the first few months of development, mother's I've known have said they can already feel their child's personality, and I feel that all living things have souls. A fetus/unborn child is definitely alive, whether it would live outside the mother yet or not, inside the mother it is a living thing.

Edit:
The reason I include rape as a condition is because being impregnated by a rapist is 280 times as painful and scarring as simply being raped. You have the reminder and evidence inside of you for 40 weeks, 280 days. If someone thinks they can survive this mentally and emotionally, and that their stress wouldn't kill or harm the baby, then they should try. If they can't, they shouldn't harm themselves that way, and the potential baby could be killed or mentally/physically damaged by the mother's stress. It would be even worse for the rapist to have harmed one person, and destroyed the potential of another.

I'm talking about the feelings this would give someone as someone who's been there (not impregnated by the rapist thankfully, but raped.)

It isn't proven that people unable to communicate like us don't feel how different they are, and don't feel alone. I think that someone who is mentally delayed just has a way of thinking we don't recognize and to grow up on the outside of society because your mother was mentally traumatized is worse than not being born, you feel permanently alone.

I know someone who was an unwanted child, and they live every day feeling unloved, her parents basically played rock, paper, scissors over who would keep "it". Her Dad was never in her life, and her mother was physically and mentally abusive. This is only relevant because children who were products of rape could grow up in this situation as well, the mother targeting them because they look like or remind them of the rapist, and the male uninvolved. Even children put up for adoption seek out their real families, and if they find their mother, and hear that, it would more than definitely hurt them.

I received a lot of PM's about why I thought mother's who were raped should be able to abort, so I decided to include it either way.  

[Rsnbl Faith]

At the time of conception a unique being unlike any of us is made, his/her dna is seperate from ours, it begins growing(have u ever seen something NOT alive grow?) =P the 'fetus' inside of the whomb is already seperate from everyone else, its own being interly, it is literally an individual. =P that can die because it is living. and when u 'kill' it you are murdering it for the fact that it has done nothing wrong.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

zz1000zz

Practically any action can be a sin depending on the reason it is done. I certainly would not disagree with some abortions being sinful, but that is no condemnation of the practice in general.

Which is why I only condemn it in cases of irresponsible sex. It's selfish to want to have sex without consequences- there is no such thing. You are jumping to a level of intimacy that God intended only for strongly devoted couples, and to enjoy it casually is going to have its effects. Look at David in the Bible (I'm finding I'm having to qualify which David I'm talking about now in case Priestley decides to post another "I did no such thing!" response to my posts about David xd ). He wanted to enjoy a one-night stand with Bathsheba, and in the end, two people died as a result. His son, and Uriah. Sex has consequences, whether good or bad.  

[Rsnbl Faith]

Fushigi na Butterfly

zz1000zz

Practically any action can be a sin depending on the reason it is done. I certainly would not disagree with some abortions being sinful, but that is no condemnation of the practice in general.

Which is why I only condemn it in cases of irresponsible sex. It's selfish to want to have sex without consequences- there is no such thing.

when did you have the power to control the life of one of Gods precious beings (i say this to condemn it in all areas of the fact) when u say 'only at times its ok to murder the defenceless, the weak, and the innocent' when is it ever ok to murder the defenceless, the weak, and the innocent???  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Kain1334

Fushigi na Butterfly

zz1000zz

Practically any action can be a sin depending on the reason it is done. I certainly would not disagree with some abortions being sinful, but that is no condemnation of the practice in general.

Which is why I only condemn it in cases of irresponsible sex. It's selfish to want to have sex without consequences- there is no such thing.

when did you have the power to control the life of one of Gods precious beings (i say this to condemn it in all areas of the fact) when u say 'only at times its ok to murder the defenceless, the weak, and the innocent' when is it ever ok to murder the defenceless, the weak, and the innocent???

It's never okay, but it's sometimes necessary. It wasn't okay for Jesus to die for the sake of humanity, but it was necessary. It's never okay for a baby to die, for whatever reason, but to protect the LIFE (in cases of medical emergencies) and mental and emotional well-being of the mother (in cases of rape), it is necessary. It is unfortunate and deeply saddening, but sometimes, there really is no other safe option.  

[Rsnbl Faith]

Fushigi na Butterfly

Kain1334

Fushigi na Butterfly

zz1000zz

Practically any action can be a sin depending on the reason it is done. I certainly would not disagree with some abortions being sinful, but that is no condemnation of the practice in general.

Which is why I only condemn it in cases of irresponsible sex. It's selfish to want to have sex without consequences- there is no such thing.

when did you have the power to control the life of one of Gods precious beings (i say this to condemn it in all areas of the fact) when u say 'only at times its ok to murder the defenceless, the weak, and the innocent' when is it ever ok to murder the defenceless, the weak, and the innocent???

It's never okay, but it's sometimes necessary. It wasn't okay for Jesus to die for the sake of humanity, but it was necessary. It's never okay for a baby to die, for whatever reason, but to protect the LIFE (in cases of medical emergencies) and mental and emotional well-being of the mother (in cases of rape), it is necessary. It is unfortunate and deeply saddening, but sometimes, there really is no other safe option.

You place in equality the saving of many lives, to the saving of a life?  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Kain1334

Fushigi na Butterfly

Kain1334

Fushigi na Butterfly

zz1000zz

Practically any action can be a sin depending on the reason it is done. I certainly would not disagree with some abortions being sinful, but that is no condemnation of the practice in general.

Which is why I only condemn it in cases of irresponsible sex. It's selfish to want to have sex without consequences- there is no such thing.

when did you have the power to control the life of one of Gods precious beings (i say this to condemn it in all areas of the fact) when u say 'only at times its ok to murder the defenceless, the weak, and the innocent' when is it ever ok to murder the defenceless, the weak, and the innocent???

It's never okay, but it's sometimes necessary. It wasn't okay for Jesus to die for the sake of humanity, but it was necessary. It's never okay for a baby to die, for whatever reason, but to protect the LIFE (in cases of medical emergencies) and mental and emotional well-being of the mother (in cases of rape), it is necessary. It is unfortunate and deeply saddening, but sometimes, there really is no other safe option.

You place in equality the saving of many lives, to the saving of a life?

In situations where a mother is going to die in childbirth, generally, the baby dies too, just FYI.

I have no idea how what you said even applies to mothers in severe psychological distress. How many extra lives get saved if she decides to keep her baby? Oh, right, just one, and then the chances of her ending up in a mental hospital and her not even being able to care for her child because CPS judges her an unfit mother, or the chances of her committing suicide because she is that psychologically unsound increase. God would not force that on anyone. I would not expect society to either.  

[zz1000zz]

Priestley

Kazydi

If that's not a human being in your womb, then what the heck is it? Who are we to decide what counts as life and what isn't?

The noun 'being' comes from the verb 'to be'. Once something has sentience, that is, it is aware of itself, it is a 'being'.

Have you ever heard the phrase "I think, therefore I am"?

I would agree with this position, but I still say Descartes sucks.

The Lady Who Knows

I'm pro-choice in that I think if the unborn baby is a product of rape or incest the mother should have the option to have an abortion.

Suppose a married couple has two children. They do not want any more, nor can they afford any more, so the husband has a vasectomy. They enjoy a healthy sexual relationship for several more years, then one day find out the wife is pregnant. They go see the doctor and find out the vasectomy reversed itself.

Can you provide any actual way of justifying allowing the rape victim to have an abortion without allowing this couple to have one? The medical risks to the fetus you offered are nonsense, and the issue of "unwanted" babies is not restricted to children of rape.  

[Jessy_4 26 2008]

zz1000zz

Priestley

Kazydi

If that's not a human being in your womb, then what the heck is it? Who are we to decide what counts as life and what isn't?

The noun 'being' comes from the verb 'to be'. Once something has sentience, that is, it is aware of itself, it is a 'being'.

Have you ever heard the phrase "I think, therefore I am"?

I would agree with this position, but I still say Descartes sucks.

The Lady Who Knows

I'm pro-choice in that I think if the unborn baby is a product of rape or incest the mother should have the option to have an abortion.

Suppose a married couple has two children. They do not want any more, nor can they afford any more, so the husband has a vasectomy. They enjoy a healthy sexual relationship for several more years, then one day find out the wife is pregnant. They go see the doctor and find out the vasectomy reversed itself.

Can you provide any actual way of justifying allowing the rape victim to have an abortion without allowing this couple to have one? The medical risks to the fetus you offered are nonsense, and the issue of "unwanted" babies is not restricted to children of rape.

I've been through a long discussion of what I thought. My opinion is largely clouded by my own experiences, and I wasn't being objective, instead really looking through myself, not through God. I was thinking of the trauma someone would go through, mentally and spiritually, because every day for 40 weeks they would be reminded, stronger than flash backs, of what happened to them. Stress raises blood pressure, which is known to harm the child, and after the mother, I worry about the child the most. Looking through God's eyes, I can see how the mother could seek help and be supported by Him through this. Looking through human eyes, I only see how painful it would be.

I also REALLY like how NO ONE disputes why children who are products of incest are an allowed restriction. Because if everyone is looking through God's eyes, then those children should get as much chance as anyone else as well. But no one has brought it up to me, not even mentioned it. Society has effected all of us to believe that incest damages a child's genes and it never has a chance. But if they survive their birth defects, then they do have a chance. Discussing my allotment for rape victims with Kain led me to question my motives towards the allotment for incest victims as well. Incest is harder to make it through than rape, but wouldn't God help them through it just as much as a rape victim? Of course He would. I don't mean to attack anyone, but I just noticed that incest wasn't disputed, it intrigued me, and led me to have a desire to discuss it.

I can say that if someone can't afford their child, then they should go through with adoption, not have an abortion to "get rid of the expense". Obviously though, God wanted this child to be born, along with every other child. But killing an innocent baby just because you don't have the funds is ridiculous! A true Christian would KNOW that God would provide, the only excuse they have for their actions is material wants. They wouldn't sacrifice cable or internet, or pricier items for this child, nor would they go through the paperwork to even give it a chance! Killing someone for STUFF is the worst reason to kill anyone! A rape or incest victim, while their choice is still self-concerned, won't gain anything from the abortion accept temporary relief from stress, until the guilt sets in. Killing your child because you haven't got the money, isn't only self-concerned, it's against the Bible. Jesus has told us not to build wealth and treasure on earth, for a man's heart lies with his treasure, he cannot serve two masters. He also told us that anyone who needed help, need only ask. If they needed help supporting their family, they could've consulted the church, and prayed to God for assistance.