A bit confused regarding deities that I feel strongly toward

[Deoridhe]

TheDisreputableDog

Deoridhe

When doing a Blot, the Aesir, Vanir, ancestors, and landvaettir are invited as the opening salvo. I find it jarring when someone then calls in, individually, a deity from a different pantheon - especially if there are reasons why that deity might not appreciate what we are doing, why, or how.

At my first and only Sumbel as a very new and stupid pagan, I called Pele.

rofl rofl rofl

Actually, depending on how the Sumbel is opened, broadening it to other pantheons isn't a problem imo; ancestors and heros are already implied as welcome, and deities in other pantheons can come in under either of those auspices or via the simple presence of one of their worshipers. I got almost tackled and murdered when I invoked Diana at a blot, though, before they realized I was talking about a person not a Roman god.


Honestly, Tea, we have only a few Sagas to give us any hint as to how things might have been, and the one extra-cultural interaction I know of had no religious components. What we are fairly sure of is that the gods were invoked/evoked very rarely; it was the ancestors and landvaettir which predominated in peoples' lives. Explanations for modern practices vary between us all being priests to us all being self-important gits.  

[CricketBrain]

Deoridhe

CricketBrain

Steve McNallen likens the Morrigan to the Valkyrie
in his "Celts and Germans" essay.
My friend says, no, more like the Norns.
I think she encompasses both aspects, and more.

Um.... WHAT?

How is The Morrigan encompassing of the writers of wyrd and the gatherers of the slain? While the Celtic system of fate/future/etc... seems to have some things in common with wyrd, I wasn't aware of them having specific writers of it embodied. And I didn't think the Celts gathered Slain in Battle for Ragnarok (which makes sense since Ragnarok is Norse).

*completely baffled*

ok, I'm fairly ignorant, that's one of the reasons that I'm here,
and I spoke poorly using the word "encompassing"
perhaps "somewhat similar to" might have been a better turn of phrase.

Most of what I've said on these topics is based on readings of
online articles with varying degrees of fluff and gut feeling.

I don't really no where to look for Celtic lore from credible sources.  

[Deoridhe]

CricketBrain

ok, I'm fairly ignorant, that's one of the reasons that I'm here,
and I spoke poorly using the word "encompassing"
perhaps "somewhat similar to" might have been a better turn of phrase.

Most of what I've said on these topics is based on readings of
online articles with varying degrees of fluff and gut feeling.

I don't really no where to look for Celtic lore from credible sources.

I'm not even really seeing similar. Cu may correct me since my knowledge of The Morrigan is superficial, but my understanding is that she has to do with battle and the dead and the power centering around that. While battle is a "fateful" sort of thing (the Roman concept adopted by the Christians really doesn't work well when talking about either Celtic or Norse/Germanic cultures), that hardly makes every deity associated with war and death a deity associated with fate as well, especially not as directly as the Norns (who, I'll note, are not gods).

I suppose one could argue that all deities associated with war are similar to each other, but that's also not been my experience. The Valkyrie, like the Norns, are not gods; the Valkyrie serve Odin, who has some similarities to The Morrigan but somehow I'd imagine they wouldn't necessarily get along well, for a specific purpose which doesn't exist in Celtic mythology.

As for sources, try here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/index.htm

Not all of them are equal; more scholarly and primary is, as always, better.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

I got almost tackled and murdered when I invoked Diana at a blot, though, before they realized I was talking about a person not a Roman god.

rofl

Quote:

Explanations for modern practices vary between us all being priests to us all being self-important gits.

ninja You said it... I didn't.  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Deoridhe

Explanations for modern practices vary between us all being priests to us all being self-important gits.

ninja You said it... I didn't.

I'm a priest. You're a self important git.

razz  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

TeaDidikai

Deoridhe

Explanations for modern practices vary between us all being priests to us all being self-important gits.

ninja You said it... I didn't.

I'm a priest. You're a self important git.

razz

I'm pretty sure that's what Tony always says.  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

CricketBrain

Freya, Odin, The Morrigan, Bragi, Thor, Idunna.

"one of these things is not like the others"

The last time someone asked me what is my religion,
I said, Asatru, and it felt like the right thing to say,
but how does The Morrigan fit?

Maybe, from an astrological perspective,
The Morrigan possesses many Plutonian characteristics,
and Pluto, Plutonian themes,
have figured prominently in my life,
particularly over the last year or so.

Maybe I'm confusing a love of this performance
http://youtube.com/watch?v=H0zTPCQFJ2c
with love of that particular goddess.

Thoughts?
Opinions?

My main question is, whom is the Morrigan. From what I understand, the term is a title, rather than a particular goddess, and indeed, there are a number of goddesses whom seem to have been given the title of Morrigan at times. No doubt, there are some whom have fulfilled the role of Morrigan from time to time. So, in essence it should be A Morrigan, instead of THE Morrigan.

It also appears that for someone whom is a goddess, historically there wasn't a cult of the Morrigan.

As for a Morrigan being outside the purview of the Germanic Folkways, it needs to be understood that the Folkways of the Germanic, Celtic and Slavic peoples are closely inter-related, and as such, if one is to engage in a pan-Germanic belief system, then one needs to be able to at least acknowledge ones Celtic and Slavic cousins.

What of the Germanic Cunning Folk whom studied with the Saami? Did they ignore the Saami deities because they were 'Utgardr'? No, they worked with them, because they were in the world of the Saami Folk, and indeed, we see a pattern of localised belief, where when a Germanic person would move to another location, they'd then adopt the gods and goddesses of that location, or at least become familiar with the spirits of that location at least.

It can be inferred that many of the first 'conversions' to Christianity worked that way. When our ancestors were in Christian territory, they were Christian, and when they returned home, they were the same as they ever were.

I certainly know some groups and persons whom even the mere sniff of someone whom holds beliefs which are cross-cultural, will send them reeling and the person being shunned, and then there are those at the other extreme, whom will accept pretty much anything and everything, although their focus is on the Germanic Folkway.

Myself, personally, I am of the opinion, that if one can integrate cultural patterns well enough, then there shouldn't be any issue of having deities from different cultures, however, it should be noted that the further one is away from the primary cultural focus, the harder it is to integrate the cultural practices. It's a bit like learning multiple languages at once, yes, in the end you'd be fluent in many, but it takes so much more time and energy to get to a point of fluency, than if you learned one after the other, and they used similar linguistic and phonic characteristics.  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

CricketBrain

CuAnnan

I've been trying really hard to formulate a response to this post for some time now.
I'm going to ask some questions, they're not going to be particularly tactfully phrased, they're not going to be particularly nice, but they are particularly necessary.

Honest straightforwardness IS nice,
just doesn't always feel that way at first,
thank you for the questions.

What makes me a Celt?
Ancestry, a Primal Love of the Music,
feelings of longing when I see pictures
of Irish and Scottish countryside.

What makes one a Celt in your opinion?

I'll be glad to discuss further,
but it's getting Late over here.

Hmmm, Celt... Ancestry... okay, what IS your ancestry? Why do I ask the question? Well, there was much tooing and froing of the Scandinavian folk in both the area now known as Scotland, as well as Ireland in the day, and let us also remember a thing called the Danelaw. So, if one is to state that Celtic is specifically related to the areas of Ireland/Scotland and some areas of England, then one needs to be careful as to how one defines that, as ones ancestry could actually be rather mixed.  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

Deoridhe

CricketBrain

Steve McNallen likens the Morrigan to the Valkyrie
in his "Celts and Germans" essay.
My friend says, no, more like the Norns.
I think she encompasses both aspects, and more.

Um.... WHAT?

How is The Morrigan encompassing of the writers of wyrd and the gatherers of the slain? While the Celtic system of fate/future/etc... seems to have some things in common with wyrd, I wasn't aware of them having specific writers of it embodied. And I didn't think the Celts gathered Slain in Battle for Ragnarok (which makes sense since Ragnarok is Norse).

*completely baffled*

Yep, agreed, a very interesting concept, and it seems to be something derived from the three as one thing. Unfortunately for those involved in such basic comparisons and matchings, the evidence for such quickly dissolves. If people want to read about what is the real characteristics of the Norns, whom have separate names for a reason, and are named in the Sagas specifically for a reason (as opposed to translations which tend to just use 'Fate' as the catch-all for all of them), check out my Wyrd and the Norns article on the AET Website. Link in Sig...  

[Deoridhe]

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

As for a Morrigan being outside the purview of the Germanic Folkways, it needs to be understood that the Folkways of the Germanic, Celtic and Slavic peoples are closely inter-related, and as such, if one is to engage in a pan-Germanic belief system, then one needs to be able to at least acknowledge ones Celtic and Slavic cousins.

What of the Germanic Cunning Folk whom studied with the Saami? Did they ignore the Saami deities because they were 'Utgardr'? No, they worked with them, because they were in the world of the Saami Folk, and indeed, we see a pattern of localised belief, where when a Germanic person would move to another location, they'd then adopt the gods and goddesses of that location, or at least become familiar with the spirits of that location at least.

It can be inferred that many of the first 'conversions' to Christianity worked that way. When our ancestors were in Christian territory, they were Christian, and when they returned home, they were the same as they ever were.

It's interesting that you talk about this, because it's long been my pattern of interaction with all religions but YHWH's (due to the implications drawn by the followers of YHWH and my own knowledge of how he demands a different sort of loyalty). There is something about coming to a new place and learning to fit within it that feels right to me.  

[CricketBrain]

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

CricketBrain

CuAnnan

I've been trying really hard to formulate a response to this post for some time now.
I'm going to ask some questions, they're not going to be particularly tactfully phrased, they're not going to be particularly nice, but they are particularly necessary.

Honest straightforwardness IS nice,
just doesn't always feel that way at first,
thank you for the questions.

What makes me a Celt?
Ancestry, a Primal Love of the Music,
feelings of longing when I see pictures
of Irish and Scottish countryside.

What makes one a Celt in your opinion?

I'll be glad to discuss further,
but it's getting Late over here.

Hmmm, Celt... Ancestry... okay, what IS your ancestry? Why do I ask the question? Well, there was much tooing and froing of the Scandinavian folk in both the area now known as Scotland, as well as Ireland in the day, and let us also remember a thing called the Danelaw. So, if one is to state that Celtic is specifically related to the areas of Ireland/Scotland and some areas of England, then one needs to be careful as to how one defines that, as ones ancestry could actually be rather mixed.

On my mother's side it's clearly Scottish and Polish;
both of her parents were immigrants.
But that doesn't necessarily exclude other things from the mix.
On my father's side definitely Irish,
his grandfather was an Irish immigrant,
but the rest isn't too clear, his family has been in the US
a lot longer than my mother's.
IIRC, probably English, German and French are in there somewhere,
I'll have to pick his brain again soon.

So, yeah, I'm definitely of mixed ancestry,
with a substantial portion being Celtic.  

[CuAnnan]

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

My main question is, whom is the Morrigan. From what I understand, the term is a title, rather than a particular goddess, and indeed, there are a number of goddesses whom seem to have been given the title of Morrigan at times. No doubt, there are some whom have fulfilled the role of Morrigan from time to time. So, in essence it should be A Morrigan, instead of THE Morrigan.

I am not a follower of the Morrigan. But in the epics, it's the Morrigan. And while it is a title, as opposed to a name, it refers to a Triune entity. As to how it works, I don't know, I have never bothered to ask. I am a priest of Annan. I don't need to know how the Morrigan works.

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

It also appears that for someone whom is a goddess, historically there wasn't a cult of the Morrigan.

I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this.  

[Deoridhe]

CuAnnan

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

My main question is, whom is the Morrigan. From what I understand, the term is a title, rather than a particular goddess, and indeed, there are a number of goddesses whom seem to have been given the title of Morrigan at times. No doubt, there are some whom have fulfilled the role of Morrigan from time to time. So, in essence it should be A Morrigan, instead of THE Morrigan.

I am not a follower of the Morrigan. But in the epics, it's the Morrigan. And while it is a title, as opposed to a name, it refers to a Triune entity. As to how it works, I don't know, I have never bothered to ask. I am a priest of Annan. I don't need to know how the Morrigan works.

I asked a friend of mine who has had dealings with The Morrigan and she got one of those funny looks on her face...

It's definitely different from the three-associated-beings phenomena of the Norns, though. I'm not sure how the fates work; a lot of modern things have them being semi-interchangeable, but I don't know if that has any roots in the past or not.  

[CuAnnan]

Deoridhe

I asked a friend of mine who has had dealings with The Morrigan and she got one of those funny looks on her face...

I've had the same funny look from those who deal with the Morrigan.  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

CricketBrain

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

CricketBrain

CuAnnan

I've been trying really hard to formulate a response to this post for some time now.
I'm going to ask some questions, they're not going to be particularly tactfully phrased, they're not going to be particularly nice, but they are particularly necessary.

Honest straightforwardness IS nice,
just doesn't always feel that way at first,
thank you for the questions.

What makes me a Celt?
Ancestry, a Primal Love of the Music,
feelings of longing when I see pictures
of Irish and Scottish countryside.

What makes one a Celt in your opinion?

I'll be glad to discuss further,
but it's getting Late over here.

Hmmm, Celt... Ancestry... okay, what IS your ancestry? Why do I ask the question? Well, there was much tooing and froing of the Scandinavian folk in both the area now known as Scotland, as well as Ireland in the day, and let us also remember a thing called the Danelaw. So, if one is to state that Celtic is specifically related to the areas of Ireland/Scotland and some areas of England, then one needs to be careful as to how one defines that, as ones ancestry could actually be rather mixed.

On my mother's side it's clearly Scottish and Polish;
both of her parents were immigrants.
But that doesn't necessarily exclude other things from the mix.
On my father's side definitely Irish,
his grandfather was an Irish immigrant,
but the rest isn't too clear, his family has been in the US
a lot longer than my mother's.
IIRC, probably English, German and French are in there somewhere,
I'll have to pick his brain again soon.

So, yeah, I'm definitely of mixed ancestry,
with a substantial portion being Celtic.

The Scots had a lot to do with the Northern Germanic peoples. Poles, well, they are closely related to the Germanic Tribes, and it depends on where abouts in Poland, but areas of Poland were in fact Germanic, rather than Slavic, although there is a great deal of area that was border area.

Irish is always interesting. For example, Dublin, was founded by the Vikings. Many of the largest cities in Ireland are trade bases set up by the Vikings.

English, depends where from, there could be a great deal of mixture there, but generally Anglo-Saxon/Norman (both Germanic Tribes - well, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes were the first wave of Germanic migrants to England).

The history of France is tied very closely to the Germanic peoples.

So, looking at it, without being able to quantify, I'd say at a base level you'd have a good mix of Celtic & Germanic with a bit of Slavic smile

Cheers