Animist?

[TeaDidikai]

AisuruTsuki

the priest from the shrine in America was trained at a shrine in japan, his book is on the site, im reading it now,

At which point we need to look at the quality of authority.
After all, Scott Cunningham was a Wiccan initiate, that doesn't mean his books are Wiccan.

Like I said- do the assertions made about this shrine meet the standards for those in authority? I'm not seeing anything to suggest it does.

He can say it does all he would like- but that doesn't make it true.

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and there is folk shinto which doesn't hold the same type of dogma as shrine shinto does at least it looks that way from what i am reading. i do like the folk aspect of using some of the divination or even a kamidama.

However- even folk shinto rests on Japanese culture for it's context.

And this shrine isn't pretending to be Folk Shinto.

Let's use this example:

There are Folk Saints in many countries. Now- the Roman Catholic Church says "These are Not Recognized Saints." Most of the people don't care what the Catholic Church says about their Saints- but their desire to venerate them as Saints does not mean they are Catholic Saints. Even so- if the whole community venerates a Saint claiming they did something amazing (let's say- turned the Black Death)- but one person venerates them saying they broke a World Jump Rope record, the person who venerates them for that isn't even agreeing with the most basic aspect of the tradition.

The Roman Catholic Church is to the different groups with established Shinto theology as the Folk Saints are to Folk Shinto as a False Shinto Priest making claims about Shinto Tradition is to the person venerating the Saint for skipping rope.  

[iRTsuki]

TeaDidikai

AisuruTsuki

the priest from the shrine in America was trained at a shrine in japan, his book is on the site, im reading it now,

At which point we need to look at the quality of authority.
After all, Scott Cunningham was a Wiccan initiate, that doesn't mean his books are Wiccan.

Like I said- do the assertions made about this shrine meet the standards for those in authority? I'm not seeing anything to suggest it does.

He can say it does all he would like- but that doesn't make it true.

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and there is folk shinto which doesn't hold the same type of dogma as shrine shinto does at least it looks that way from what i am reading. i do like the folk aspect of using some of the divination or even a kamidama.

However- even folk shinto rests on Japanese culture for it's context.

And this shrine isn't pretending to be Folk Shinto.

Let's use this example:

There are Folk Saints in many countries. Now- the Roman Catholic Church says "These are Not Recognized Saints." Most of the people don't care what the Catholic Church says about their Saints- but their desire to venerate them as Saints does not mean they are Catholic Saints. Even so- if the whole community venerates a Saint claiming they did something amazing (let's say- turned the Black Death)- but one person venerates them saying they broke a World Jump Rope record, the person who venerates them for that isn't even agreeing with the most basic aspect of the tradition.

The Roman Catholic Church is to the different groups with established Shinto theology as the Folk Saints are to Folk Shinto as a False Shinto Priest making claims about Shinto Tradition is to the person venerating the Saint for skipping rope.

as for whether this shrine in america is valid

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Tsubaki America Shrine

Tsubaki America Heiden

Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America is the traditional Jinja Shinto Shrine located on a pristine 25 acre site near Granite Falls, Washington. Less than 1 hour from Seattle or Eastside. Tsubaki America Shrine is the branch of Ise-no-kuni Ichi-no-Miya, Sarutahiko Daihonguu, Tsubaki O Kami Yashiro (Tsubaki Grand Shrine) one of the oldest and most prestigious shrines in Japan with a history of over 2000 years."

and yes i already know about the limited works of scott cunningham, ive read them, just because it says wicca doesnt mean it is, i feel thats the point your trying to prove with what i have linked about shinto, but the shrine is a real shrine with real shinto priests who have gained their knowledge and teaching from other shinto priests in japan.
Shrine History
About Rev. Dr. Yukitaka Yamamoto the 96th High Priest
Tsubaki Grand Shrine (japanese)

When i mentioned the shrine it was to prove that its not limited by location.

as for folk practices that as you have read does not necessarily need a shrine. There is a book i am currently reading which has a quote about "one does not need to be shinto to feel shinto" Shinto Book

and if you want to question the author of that book ive linked im doing some research on that author, he has some articles and books up on jstor, which im not going to pay for ill find another way around to see what else he has written.  

[TeaDidikai]

AisuruTsuki

but the shrine is a real shrine with real shinto priests who have gained their knowledge and teaching from other shinto priests in japan. ...

When i mentioned the shrine it was to prove that its not limited by location.

And I am saying that Shinto hangs on Japanese Culture. Of note- I have been to that Shrine. It was interesting, but it lacked context.

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as for folk practices that as you have read does not necessarily need a shrine.

I NEVER said it did.

What I am saying is that there is a difference between being Shinto Otaku and being Shinto.

Can you read Gardner's Book of Shadows? Yes. Does that make you a Gardnerian Wiccan? No.

Can people dress up a parcel of land like a Shinto Shrine? Yes. Does that make it a Shinto Shrine? No.

It's like saying you can take a Cathedral- and without any sanctioning from the Pope, call yourself a Roman Catholic Priest and start holding services without asserting you believe in Yeshua.  

[iRTsuki]

TeaDidikai

AisuruTsuki

but the shrine is a real shrine with real shinto priests who have gained their knowledge and teaching from other shinto priests in japan. ...

When i mentioned the shrine it was to prove that its not limited by location.

And I am saying that Shinto hangs on Japanese Culture. Of note- I have been to that Shrine. It was interesting, but it lacked context.

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as for folk practices that as you have read does not necessarily need a shrine.

I NEVER said it did.

What I am saying is that there is a difference between being Shinto Otaku and being Shinto.

Can you read Gardner's Book of Shadows? Yes. Does that make you a Gardnerian Wiccan? No.

Can people dress up a parcel of land like a Shinto Shrine? Yes. Does that make it a Shinto Shrine? No.

It's like saying you can take a Cathedral- and without any sanctioning from the Pope, call yourself a Roman Catholic Priest and start holding services without asserting you believe in Yeshua.

I understand and already knew about needing japanese culture, not trying to argue with you on that.

As far as shinto otaku and shinto, the shrine i did post is a shrine with someone who is an actual priest. I can understand the difference if it didn't have someone accredited to it. then it wouldn't have meaning like your pointing out. But i already knew that. I understand your point to be careful of the recourses. which is why i plan on reading anything i can get my hands on about shinto. I never said i was shinto. i like the ideas and some of its practices, i may see about adapting some of the ideas to my lifestyle. But i never said i was one. I also do plan on studying japanese culture and language after i get my art degree, so its not like i am trying to learn shinto because OMG SHINTO IS TEH JAPANESE RELIGION, im trying to learn for a genuine interest in the religion and culture. dont mistake that for "ignorant fluffy otaku" I am learning, and reading and studying what i can to have the knowledge, relax. =3  

[TeaDidikai]

AisuruTsuki

the shrine i did post is a shrine with someone who is an actual priest. I can understand the difference if it didn't have someone accredited to it.

You're not understanding.

Having a priest doesn't make it Shinto any more than having a Cathedral makes it Catholic or having the words of a First Degree initiate of Wicca makes someone a Wiccan, or wearing an ugly flowing skirt makes someone Rroma.

I cannot explain it more clearly. This shrine is a couple hours away from my home. I've been there. It has as much validity in claiming to be Shinto as someone who reads Buckland has claiming to be a Wiccan.

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I understand your point to be careful of the recourses.

It isn't just resources. It's context.

Further- correcting your assumptions is not the same as being upset. You assumed based on your research, that this was a valid Shinto Shrine. Lineage isn't the only thing that the concepts of Shinto hang on.  

[iRTsuki]

TeaDidikai

AisuruTsuki

the shrine i did post is a shrine with someone who is an actual priest. I can understand the difference if it didn't have someone accredited to it.

You're not understanding.

Having a priest doesn't make it Shinto any more than having a Cathedral makes it Catholic or having the words of a First Degree initiate of Wicca makes someone a Wiccan, or wearing an ugly flowing skirt makes someone Rroma.

I cannot explain it more clearly. This shrine is a couple hours away from my home. I've been there. It has as much validity in claiming to be Shinto as someone who reads Buckland has claiming to be a Wiccan.

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I understand your point to be careful of the recourses.

It isn't just resources. It's context.

Further- correcting your assumptions is not the same as being upset. You assumed based on your research, that this was a valid Shinto Shrine. Lineage isn't the only thing that the concepts of Shinto hang on.

i understand that you are trying to tell me that just because its a claim doesn't make it valid. and its nice that you have been there, but have you done any other research about the place? i haven't and would like to know why you say its not a valid place. Since i cannot visit the place myself. Thats just my curiosity there. And i understand lineage isn't the only concept of shinto. Then again there are different types of shinto, and like i said various times im still learning about it and doing research. Based on the research i did it looks valid. Unless i find proof otherwise. Which i haven't found and would like to see. i don't mind saying its not valid if there is proof saying it isn't. But i have not found that yet. Please share what you learned from your visit.  

[TeaDidikai]

AisuruTsuki

but have you done any other research about the place?

Indeed I have.

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i haven't and would like to know why you say its not a valid place.

It is a valid place. It exists. However- it isn't Shinto since Shinto exists as an expression of a culture that isn't present.

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And i understand lineage isn't the only concept of shinto. Then again there are different types of shinto, and like i said various times im still learning about it and doing research.

Which forms of Shinto have you researched that do not exist within the context of Japanese culture?  

[iRTsuki]

TeaDidikai

AisuruTsuki

but have you done any other research about the place?

Indeed I have.

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i haven't and would like to know why you say its not a valid place.

It is a valid place. It exists. However- it isn't Shinto since Shinto exists as an expression of a culture that isn't present.

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And i understand lineage isn't the only concept of shinto. Then again there are different types of shinto, and like i said various times im still learning about it and doing research.

Which forms of Shinto have you researched that do not exist within the context of Japanese culture?

i didnt say the japanese culture wasnt important i was just thinking out loud how there are different types that i should study, bad choice of words on my part. As for the shrine can we agree that its ideas were based off of Shinto and japanese culture?  

[TeaDidikai]

AisuruTsuki

As for the shrine can we agree that its ideas were based off of Shinto and japanese culture?

To a certain extent.

But then, being based off and in many cases, thoroughly bastardized, isn't the same thing as being valid.  

[iRTsuki]

TeaDidikai

AisuruTsuki

As for the shrine can we agree that its ideas were based off of Shinto and japanese culture?

To a certain extent.

But then, being based off and in many cases, thoroughly bastardized, isn't the same thing as being valid.

note in that sentence i didnt say valid.  

[TeaDidikai]

AisuruTsuki

note in that sentence i didnt say valid.

Never said you did say it was in that sentence. However- by citing it as an example as a "Shinto Shrine" previously, I was addressing that issue as you haven't said anything to the contrary.  

[iRTsuki]

TeaDidikai

AisuruTsuki

note in that sentence i didnt say valid.

Never said you did say it was in that sentence. However- by citing it as an example as a "Shinto Shrine" previously, I was addressing that issue as you haven't said anything to the contrary.

it was being used as a possible example of Shinto practice outside of japan.  

[Ashley the Bee]

I wonder how one would decide upon what, particularly "inanimate" objects, to interact with?

Also, I'm just wondering... so each object would have a spirit, as you say, a piece of hair would have one, and it would, while in your head, identify itself as part of you, but it would still be itself if it were plucked out.

How small an object would it reasonably go down to? A grain of sand? A molecule? An atom?

Sorry, it's just, perhaps, a bit daunting to think about? ^_^  

[TeaDidikai]

AisuruTsuki

it was being used as a possible example of Shinto practice outside of japan.

And I am saying it isn't an example due to the lack of context.

Ashley the Bee

I wonder how one would decide upon what, particularly "inanimate" objects, to interact with?

Depends on if you need their help/cooperation/insight or not.

For example, I don't usually awaken items I use for sacrifice, but I do awaken items for medicine.

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Also, I'm just wondering... so each object would have a spirit, as you say, a piece of hair would have one, and it would, while in your head, identify itself as part of you, but it would still be itself if it were plucked out.

My experience is that the hair is itself attached or not.

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How small an object would it reasonably go down to? A grain of sand? A molecule? An atom?

Could indeed be. Never had a desire or need to speak with things so small.  

[bondage bunnie]

I am not an EXPERT^^ I am talking from my experience ONLY^^

I think animism is real enough in that everything has energy, or spirit. I do not think that everything has self aware spirit or a soul. Some objects nurtured or fed or shaped may attain something similar to a soul, or a soul may bind itself to an object with high energy. I don't think my keyboard is going to talk to me though or be pissed that I'm pounding the keys to hard. Seems a little too far fetched even for religion.