JRR Tolken

[Harbone]

Well, we all have out hang-ups. Mine's bank tellers and princesses (which are sometimes indistinguishable!)

By the way, I really was just kidding about the "mean" thing. I shoulda put a smiley face by it to show I was just ribbing.

Did they ever discuss the significance of rings, in and of themselves, in your old english class? As I recall, from some annotated version of Beowulf* I had in some class or other, rings represent riches. Gold was often worn as an arm-band of some sort and kings would give them away to show their generosity.

*Hardly the Eddas, I know, but our professor at the time was pretty good at Old English and read it to us as such. It was very difficult to understand!

Oh, and back to Tolkien, what do you think about his choice of the ring as the ultimate object of desire? I mean, it makes sense, sense gold = desire and rings = gold, but isn't it interesting that he made it such a small thing?  

[Ex Obscurum ut Incendia]

As you can tell - I am not Christian, but I will not put down the faith itself, but mark it the same way I will every other religion, until one is shown to me in a true light.

And I will be the first to disagree. The Edda's are NOT a good read. Prose or Poetic. They are immensely boring, long and very hard to decipher. But they do have underlying interests to me. I am a huge fan of Nordic Mythology, thus I had to read it, at least to be at peace with myself.

And again, I respect Tolkien, but I do not like his works, though I tend to agree it goes down smoother than the bible.

Sorry, I am a bit of a pessimist...  

[Harbone]

Ha! Don't worry about pessimism. I'm always happy to see another pessimist and I wish you well. I wish you didn't have to be afraid about stepping on my faith, either, because my faith is way, way too sensitive about things like that.

I'm just thinking that you might need to give Tolkien and the Eddas some time. For years I wouldn't touch epic poems because, like you, they bored me stiff. But, really, reading does become more engaging if you keep at it. Just come back to it later, is all I'm sayin'.

Thanks for keeping up the conversation, both of you: Bookwyrme and Tiamit.  

[Ex Obscurum ut Incendia]

No problem, I think... But no, the Edda's intrest me, after deciphered. But the long winded, free-style, epic poem does not, in itself, keep my intrest at all. Same with the long winded fantasy, 'epic detailer' whose first two books are boring. I did not read the third one, and don't get me started on the Hobbit. (I once got into a huge argument over the term 'hobbit'. I, myself prefer halfling for I am an avid dnd'er and am used to such.)
I just never could feel 'the flow' like I can with Martin, and Newcomb, (and goodkind before the fourth book). He was just too long winded and blatently dull. Though I admit his creative genius, I will not admit him a good writer just because he was a master of the english language.  

[Bookwyrme]

Harbone

Well, we all have out hang-ups. Mine's bank tellers and princesses (which are sometimes indistinguishable!)

Hm. It has been years since I've been to a bank--maybe I should go again, to see in what way a princess and a bank teller resemble one another (Why is a raven like a writing desk?)

Quote:

Did they ever discuss the significance of rings, in and of themselves, in your old english class? As I recall, from some annotated version of Beowulf* I had in some class or other, rings represent riches. Gold was often worn as an arm-band of some sort and kings would give them away to show their generosity.

That's pretty much it--the king was supposed to supply his followers with wealth in return for their steadfast allegience and support in battle. They demonstrated both his generosity and his abilities as a battle-leader (the gold was taken in battle).

Quote:

Oh, and back to Tolkien, what do you think about his choice of the ring as the ultimate object of desire? I mean, it makes sense, sense gold = desire and rings = gold, but isn't it interesting that he made it such a small thing?

I think that's relating back to the Eddas again--the whole plight of Sigurd et al was started by a cursed ring.

The gods accidentally killed someone's son--a giant, I think--and, in order to pay wereguild, had to cover said son's pelt with gold (the son was a shapeshifter in the form of an otter when the gods killed him). In order to get the gold, they tracked down a dwarf who had almost infinite riches. Loki, of course, was the one given the task and he wrung every last bit of gold out of the guy. The last thing Loki demanded was a gold ring the dwarf was keeping back. Now, the dwarf (Andveri?) was counting on using this ring (an enchanted one) to make more gold & was bitterly angry when Loki took it & placed a powerful curse on the ring. Loki, being Loki, just laughed. He'd planned on keeping the ring himself, but it was needed to cover the last bit of hide & so passed into the realm of mortals where it caused all kinds of problems.

Odin eventually got it--I don't think any of the stories indicate that he had any trouble with it.  

[Ex Obscurum ut Incendia]

Are you referring to Draupnir, the one that creates 9 rings every 9th night?  

[Bookwyrme]

Tiamit

Are you referring to Draupnir, the one that creates 9 rings every 9th night?

I think that's it . . .

*Will need to run to bookshelf soon.  

[Harbone]

I'm pretty certain Daupnir is right. He's one of the leading dwarves mentioned in niffleheim, if I recall. I probably ought to look it up on the net, but my dinner is getting cold.  

[Bookwyrme]

Ok, I went to my book of Norse Myths & found this note: "Snorri is alone in attributing to Andvari's ring the power of self-renewal. In this respect, it resembles the ring Draupnir made by the dwarfs Brokk and Eitri for Odin."

So it isn't the same ring, but one like it, and it is no wonder that Andvari wanted to keep it.  

[Ex Obscurum ut Incendia]

I though it was a bit weird. I do remember Draupnir being a gift, but the rest is mostly vague... I recall Mjolnir was also given to Thor by these dwarves, and an interesting story precedes it telling of how the Hammer has such a small handle.  

[Harbone]

I totally do not know the story of why Mjolnir has such a small handle.  

[Bookwyrme]

I don't remember the whole story, and I don't have my books with me atm, but it involves Loki (of course) and a bet.

Basically, Loki bet one batch of dwarves that they couldn't make a set of gifts worth those given by another batch. If he lost, the one dwarf could sew his mouth shut.

The dwarves got to work & created spectacular stuff, and Loki got worried. As they were working on the hammer, Loki turned himself into a fly and stung the dwarf working the bellows. Eventually, the dwarf gave in and swatted at the fly. The fire faltered & the dwarves were not able to finish the hammer as they'd planned.

It was still wonderful, though, as were the other gifts (I think including Draupnir), and Loki lost his bet & had his mouth sewn shut.

He was not happy about it and, in true Loki fashion, set about planning revenge.  

[Harbone]

Ha! That's a great story. I've always liked Loki. But I tend to like trickster characters.

Come to think of it, and to bring this back on topic, the closest thing that LtR has to trickster characters is the hobbits, isn't it?

I mean ol' J.R.R. did write some stories with tricksters (notable Famer Giles of Hamm, my fave) and Bilbo certainly has quite a few trickster qualities, but does anyone else fill the trickster roll in the Rings triology?

(Not Gandalf, surely!)  

[athair liath]

have you guys read the Smith of Wooton Major by Tolkein? (If anyone has already asked this, I aplogize) It was really ood. Farmer Giles was very cute (I LOVED the dog heart )

Cheers  

[Bookwyrme]

Yes--I love the bit where the Farmer & the dragon bargain & the farmer is very sensible & knows where to stop without pushing the dragon to desperation.

And the dog is wonderful.