Ewwwww- Gross! (The nastier side of spells and paganism)

[ShadowSharrow]

I don't' consider such things gross at all.

Bodily fluids just don't freak me out, I guess when you have kids or come from a large family you just get on with what needs to be done, be it
tending cuts, to clearing up vomit and diarrhoea to ending the ulcerated leg wound on a grandparent. We are visceral beings and such is life.

I have made personal witches bottles on and off for years and consider them a wonderful magical thing for anyone to make and the gathering of bodily substances for then is not that gross at all, but I would consider the use of bodily fluids for the attempted creation of Homunculus to be abhorrent but that is more the purpose rather then the use of bodily fluids.

I also don't have a problem with using animal parts, then again I have 'cleaned' both fish, chicken and rabbits for cooking and think that a person should not eat meat unless they can face where it comes from.
My children know where meat comes from and that animals have to die for them to eat it and I plan of teaching them the same skills.

Currently I have a project waiting until after Samhain I have a Crow that will be taken out of the freezer and respectfully rendered into parts for ritual purposes.

I leave out liver and occasionally a lambs heart for the crows who live near my house and watch over it.

I have done blood magic and would so again if there was need for it.

While I would not kill an animal just for it's parts for a spell or ritual work if I get a gift of on and one is on my path then I will honour that gift and make use of it.

The use of milk , cream and eggs in magic in this country is well known be ti for blessing or cursing and at times it can be rotten eggs and curled cream/milk.

Most magical practitioners will have used what ever was around them.
Many modern pagans and witches seem loathe to sully thier hands with the more visceral side of life.  

[TeaDidikai]

ShadowSharrow

Many modern pagans and witches seem loathe to sully thier hands with the more visceral side of life.

Myself- I don't mind visceral. I do mind mokado. But then, whatcha gunna do when the gods say not to touch something?  

[TatteredAngel]

TeaDidikai

ShadowSharrow

Many modern pagans and witches seem loathe to sully thier hands with the more visceral side of life.

Myself- I don't mind visceral. I do mind mokado. But then, whatcha gunna do when the gods say not to touch something?

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! You do exactly what they say! ... and maybe sulk a bit sometimes, if they don't mind a little brattiness. wink  

[TeaDidikai]

TatteredAngel

TeaDidikai

ShadowSharrow

Many modern pagans and witches seem loathe to sully thier hands with the more visceral side of life.

Myself- I don't mind visceral. I do mind mokado. But then, whatcha gunna do when the gods say not to touch something?

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! You do exactly what they say! ... and maybe sulk a bit sometimes, if they don't mind a little brattiness. wink

That or find a role that excludes you from the contamination.  

[Pelta]

patch99329

1.A little something from hoodo and trad witchcraft, amongst other things: Putting menstrual blood in the food of a man. A love spell.
I have and would never do such a thing, but biology says it is likely to work.

Hamburger patties... Or alternatively in the red wine.

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5. The toad ritual, which name escapes me again. I'll try and find more info.

Are you referring to the toadstone? Because if my memory serves me right I think you're supposed to kill the toad, throw the bones in a running stream and find the one that floats. It's apparently somewhere in the toad's head.

I'm probably completely wrong though, considering I haven't exactly tested this hypothesis.  

[patch99329]

Pelta

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5. The toad ritual, which name escapes me again. I'll try and find more info.

Are you referring to the toadstone? Because if my memory serves me right I think you're supposed to kill the toad, throw the bones in a running stream and find the one that floats. It's apparently somewhere in the toad's head.

I'm probably completely wrong though, considering I haven't exactly tested this hypothesis.

No no, you're spot on wink
I listened to a podcast about it a little while back.
--
I found some info about the dried cat thing I mentioned.
http://www.apotropaios.co.uk/dried_cats.htm  

[TeaDidikai]

Hmmmm... reminds me of the dried cat at The Ye Olde Curiosity Shop Too.  

[patch99329]

Hehe, call me cynical if you like but I think a live cat would be more effective for repelling rats xD  

[PurpleDragonsGems]

patch99329

Hehe, call me cynical if you like but I think a live cat would be more effective for repelling rats xD

Depends on the cat and the rat. We have domestic rats and our cats aren't really intrested in them.  

[TeaDidikai]

Dragon_Witch_Woman

patch99329

Hehe, call me cynical if you like but I think a live cat would be more effective for repelling rats xD

Depends on the cat and the rat. We have domestic rats and our cats aren't really intrested in them.

My cat used to repel rats. She wouldn't share her food with them so they left for greener pastures! sweatdrop  

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

Myself- I don't mind visceral. I do mind mokado. But then, whatcha gunna do when the gods say not to touch something?

I would say then you have an issue you need to work through and there could be several reasons this has arose.

It could several tests on several levels.
( this is certainly me rambling on I do not expect answers to what can be such a personal thing ).

Are you open minded to consider and comtemplate the issue and puzzle the reasons why certain things are forbidden and come to an understanding greater then a person who parrots back things are just so.

Are you able to consider the need for such an action and to find a way to get the same result in a different way, with out breaking taboos.

Cultural morals aside it also helps you figure our your personal morals,
if you were not restrained by such things would you/could you

If this is a test of thinking, or of faith then it could be a case of Abraham's test and that can go either way.
That you are willing to break the taboos and are rebuked or reviled for it by diety and loose one type of honour and maybe gain another or that you
trune around and question why and rebuke tem for trying to test you in such a fashion.

I would say that it depends on a person's journey and what is going on.

TeaDidikai

That or find a role that excludes you from the contamination.

hmmmm yes and no.

See I would see that as I would not ask a person to do something I would not be willing to do myself, but a then again geasa and taboos have to be taken into consideration.

I guess if your honour allows you to take that course of action it is something that you can look into.

Personally I find that work arounds like a sabbath goy to be pixieing the spirit of the custom/tradition/geasa/taboo.

But there is also the fact that magic users / healer were shunned from thier community/society for just those type of reasons. They had broken or would break taboo's when it was needed to be done, part of the price to be paid when walking thier path.  

[TeaDidikai]

ShadowSharrow

I would say then you have an issue you need to work through and there could be several reasons this has arose.

And you would be incorrect.

I do not take issue with the standards of purity that my family's traditions hold. While I find some of them inconvenient at times, I love and respect my family and their sacrifices enough to continue their traditions.

It's not a matter of being open minded or closed minded. It's a matter of understanding why things happen, seeing them in action and being unwilling to toss away all that my Baba struggled to preserve.

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See I would see that as I would not ask a person to do something I would not be willing to do myself, but a then again geasa and taboos have to be taken into consideration.

And without understanding a particular vitsa's codes of conduct and the actual nature of the mokado observed, you wouldn't understand.

Keep in mind, some of these are tied to gender, age and profession.  

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

ShadowSharrow

I would say then you have an issue you need to work through and there could be several reasons this has arose.

And you would be incorrect.

I didn't mean for this to be personal it was generally speaking and I am sorry if you took it up that way and I have caused offence.

My brain is till a little sideways from having spent the weekend at a gaming con and playing 6 very different rpgs, oh the joy.

TeaDidikai

I do not take issue with the standards of purity that my family's traditions hold. While I find some of them inconvenient at times, I love and respect my family and their sacrifices enough to continue their traditions.

*nods*
but I would think that a person self reflecting and questioning the way, the standards, the customs and traditions they were brought up in and those of their community to be a good thing if it leads to a greater understanding and acceptance one way or the other with in themself.

TeaDidikai

It's not a matter of being open minded or closed minded.

For me being open minded is to question and query even it is just with in ones own self.

There are people who with certain traditions be they ones they grow up in or ones they adopt who will do thing in a certain way on a certain day as they were shown/told but never seek out more reasons then
that is has always done this way and don't look for more answers or thier own answers to why.

TeaDidikai

It's a matter of understanding why things happen, seeing them in action and being unwilling to toss away all that my Baba struggled to preserve.

I find that for me understanding comes from questioning then experiencing then questioning and reflection, esp when a new level unfolds.

She sounds like she was a wonderful lady and you are right to preserve all you can. A person never knows when what seems superficial today will make sense and be of great import in years to come or when the penny for them personally will drop.

For me that is why certain spiritual paths take a life time, there would be no point in me reaching back to my self 10 years ago with things I know now as I would not have the understanding.

TeaDidikai

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See I would see that as I would not ask a person to do something I would not be willing to do myself, but a then again geasa and taboos have to be taken into consideration.

And without understanding a particular vitsa's codes of conduct and the actual nature of the mokado observed, you wouldn't understand.

Keep in mind, some of these are tied to gender, age and profession.

I do understand the difference between what for forbidden for an entire people and what is forbidden along community lines. I was thinking about what is forbidden for a people rather then a person due to their gender, rank and status.

If a person is forbidden due to their gender, rank and status then to my mind it is permissible indeed often the requirement of their community for a myriad of reasons they get the correct / appropriate person to preform that task or function on their behalf or so that they can do what is needed.

That to my mind is the correct and honourable action.
To my mind getting a person of a community to break taboos or preform a wrong action for thier gender, rank and status ( and geasa ) would not be honourable.

I would also have issues with getting a person who is an outsider and not bound to the same code of conduct do preform what would for me be a wrong action on my behalf.

ie it would be wrong for me to have a friend who was not a geal say I am not at home so that I would not have to greet a visitor and then would be honour bound to offer / provide them hospitality.  

[PurpleDragonsGems]

TeaDidikai

Dragon_Witch_Woman

patch99329

Hehe, call me cynical if you like but I think a live cat would be more effective for repelling rats xD

Depends on the cat and the rat. We have domestic rats and our cats aren't really intrested in them.

My cat used to repel rats. She wouldn't share her food with them so they left for greener pastures! sweatdrop

Ehehee, my mom used to tell me of rats up in the northern US states that would beat the crap out of the domestic cats.  

[TeaDidikai]

ShadowSharrow

TeaDidikai

ShadowSharrow

I would say then you have an issue you need to work through and there could be several reasons this has arose.

And you would be incorrect.

I didn't mean for this to be personal it was generally speaking and I am sorry if you took it up that way and I have caused offence.

My brain is till a little sideways from having spent the weekend at a gaming con and playing 6 very different rpgs, oh the joy.

Glad to hear you had a good time.

The implication that one would have "an issue [they] need to work through" would imply that such hasn't already been done.

That was the only "issue" I took.

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*nods*
but I would think that a person self reflecting and questioning the way, the standards, the customs and traditions they were brought up in and those of their community to be a good thing if it leads to a greater understanding and acceptance one way or the other with in themself.

If proper instruction is not present- very much so.

However- if you are raised in a fashion that explains things, it isn't needed. You either except the explanation or reject it.

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For me being open minded is to question and query even it is just with in ones own self.

You and I have slightly different understandings of what "open minded" is. For me, "open minded" is about understanding things within the context they sprang from, rather than shoving everything into my personal world view.

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There are people who with certain traditions be they ones they grow up in or ones they adopt who will do thing in a certain way on a certain day as they were shown/told but never seek out more reasons then
that is has always done this way and don't look for more answers or thier own answers to why.

I hear this a lot. To be honest- I don't believe it.

In my experience, everyone questions and and seeks the understanding they need.

Too often a rejection of our ideas of what is right, or an individual's favor towards their tradition or what we might view as a limited understanding is degraded because we do not understand why they came to that conclusion.

Case in point: I think Soft Polytheism is a lame understanding of the gods interact with humanity and each other. However- it is completely possible that individuals do seek and still come to the conclusion that it is valid- even when they are confronted with the huge differences in deities and other people's experiences.

Just because they don't agree with me doesn't mean they haven't questioned or thought about it in their own time.

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I find that for me understanding comes from questioning then experiencing then questioning and reflection, esp when a new level unfolds.

For me it comes from a combination of lore and upg- not always questioning.

Perhaps what got my hackles up was the implication that such is the only course- rather than a personal tool.

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I would also have issues with getting a person who is an outsider and not bound to the same code of conduct do preform what would for me be a wrong action on my behalf.

I have no qualm with this myself.

The laws that are tied to a people by their gods are not always universal.

In many traditions, those outside the culture are already taboo unto themselves. If they become more taboo, who cares?

When we divorce the concept of taboo and pure from "good" and "bad", it no longer is a tool of judgment but really a "matter of facts". Not too unlike asking someone who is already muddy to wade out on the sand and grab someone you dropped. It takes less effort and resources for one person to "clean up" than it does for two.

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ie it would be wrong for me to have a friend who was not a geal say I am not at home so that I would not have to greet a visitor and then would be honour bound to offer / provide them hospitality.

Which is all well and good in the context of your culture. I think your understanding of culture and honor might be projected into my traditions in a way that ignores some fundamental concepts.