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 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:37 am
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:48 pm
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:17 pm
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Strega Mama i got accused of misappropriation today because i have neglect dreadlocks and am not African american.
If you were some kind of fashion victim who was just mimicing Rasta Vogue, I could see their point- but you're not, so they can step off. Dreads have been worn around the world for thousands of years by all kinds of different groups- religious groups, races- and it's pure bs to think that the only people who have worn dreads are Blacks.
(A few hundred years ago- even Europeans, especially the peasant class, would wear dreads, sometimes intensionally, sometimes not)
I've had dreads in the past- because I needed to.
Quote: i'm thinking about leaving it, because of alot of reasons, mainly that i keep seeing them talk about how allies in any struggle are basically trash and should keep out of it. what are your thoughts on the whole thing? i trust what you guys have to say on such topics.
WTF?
Lydia Maria Childe is as much a hero as MLK- John Stuart Mill as much as Susan B. Anthony.
I think real change only happens when more people than not work for equality- any minority can fight, but until allies step in and numbers overwhelm the people who abuse their power, nothing happens. |
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:48 am
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:50 am
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:20 am
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:40 am
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saint dreya Strega Mama i got accused of misappropriation today because i have neglect dreadlocks and am not African american. it happened in a feminist community on livejournal. i'm thinking about leaving it, because of alot of reasons, mainly that i keep seeing them talk about how allies in any struggle are basically trash and should keep out of it. what are your thoughts on the whole thing? i trust what you guys have to say on such topics. Since when does feminism lose its fight just because a male agrees with it? Why on earth should a white, Christian person not advocate equality because they already have fair treatment? How does a man supporting pro choice not support the cause? Gods, when people say that, I get so frustrated. Since when do you have to personally experience discrimination to be against it?
This is exactly the sort of frustration myself and our campus LGBT exec group had when we went to the national queer services conference about two months ago.
I had a person tell me point blank that it was wrong that our exec group had 3 (LE GASP) straight white females on it, after ironically, a caucus for people of colour to talk about issue they have as queer people of colour. Obviously, I totally didn't feel comfortable going back, not because I'm white because I'm not, but the sheer stupidity of complaining about racism and then in turn discriminating against white people.
In fact, by the end of the conference, the closing session said that the harrassment officers said that no queer or trans people brought issues to them, but a whole bunch of allies felt seriously uncomfortable.
The whole conference this year was a ******** and mention it all to a few of us and we get ranty-ragey (like this xD). |
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:08 am
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:13 pm
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Esiris Bane of Ezekiel I had a person tell me point blank that it was wrong that our exec group had 3 (LE GASP) straight white females on it, after ironically, a caucus for people of colour to talk about issue they have as queer people of colour. That stuff (and it's sister-problem, Race and Feminism) have a lot to do with people checking privilege against cross marginalization- or that's been my experience at least. sweatdrop
When someone starts getting a "holier than thou art" attitude because I haven't experienced the exact oppression they have, but also haven't done anything to continue that discrimination or might even have worked to eliminate it, I get fairly pissed.
How does it help, the "reverse" racism, or the "reverse" sexism, to alleviate the initial unifying issue?
I may be a white, doesn't mean I can't and don't imagine the prejudice that comes with being other than white.
Further, just because I'm female doesn't mean that a male can't or won't understand some of the crap I've experienced that they never will.
There are some white people who are racist. There are some males who are sexist. There are also some non white people who are racist and some non males who are sexist. The part doesn't define the whole and I will not act like it does. |
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:06 pm
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saint dreya When someone starts getting a "holier than thou art" attitude because I haven't experienced the exact oppression they have, but also haven't done anything to continue that discrimination or might even have worked to eliminate it, I get fairly pissed.
How do you know that it's "Holier Than Thou" and not something else? First hand- I've seen people mistake the "attitude" as an attack on them- it has to do with the whole of the movement.
There are two reasons that therapy teaches you don't try and say "I know how that feels". 1- because you can't, even if you experience something similar, no two experiences are alike and 2- because when someone is in that space- it's about them, their feelings are center stage.
I impulsively try and comfort by letting them know I've been there- but it doesn't help, because it makes people feel like their experiences are secondary to whoever's talking to them. Maybe they are- but they don't want to feel that way and it makes stuff worse.
Quote: How does it help, the "reverse" racism, or the "reverse" sexism, to alleviate the initial unifying issue?
Could you phrase this a different way- I think I get what you're saying- but if I don't, I'd rather not guess. sweatdrop
Quote: I may be a white, doesn't mean I can't and don't imagine the prejudice that comes with being other than white.
Your imagination doesn't give you those experiences though- there's a line between feeling bad for people who've been hurt and trying to "own" their feelings through empathy. I think "empathy" for something that doesn't happen to you is better channeled by letting us own our experiences, and rallying behind us.
Quote: Further, just because I'm female doesn't mean that a male can't or won't understand some of the crap I've experienced that they never will.
Your petition is awesome- it talks about privilege. Sometimes people assume they know too much or can empathize too much with a group- that ability to not have to admit that one group is different and their struggles and feelings are unique to them- the drive to diminish that in them I think comes from privilege.
Quote: There are some white people who are racist. There are some males who are sexist. There are also some non white people who are racist and some non males who are sexist. The part doesn't define the whole and I will not act like it does.
You, Nuri and I are feminists. The feminist movement treats us each differently- military, race, gender and money contribute to that- That part, and how it effects us in the "whole" doesn't disappear.
What else is that privilege exists in these movements in ways people don't realize until they're confronted with an awkward situation.
Who owns the experiences? I think that "Too Much Empathy" can be just as bad as people playing "The Oppression Olympics".
I don't think that these different "unifying issues" are really that unifying.
I think there are a lot of different smaller groups that fit like a puzzle. Like with the feminist movement- it's more like there's Black Feminism, Latino Feminism, White Feminism, Trans Feminism, Cis Feminism, Upper Class Feminism, Middle Class Feminism, Lower Class Feminism, Straight Feminism, LGBP Feminism etc- and the combination of those things a person lives has a lot to say about how they experience the Feminist Movement- even amongst Feminists. |
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:28 am
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Esiris saint dreya When someone starts getting a "holier than thou art" attitude because I haven't experienced the exact oppression they have, but also haven't done anything to continue that discrimination or might even have worked to eliminate it, I get fairly pissed. How do you know that it's "Holier Than Thou" and not something else? First hand- I've seen people mistake the "attitude" as an attack on them- it has to do with the whole of the movement.
It's a combination of the victim role that people play when they go through, as you put it, the Oppression Olympics. It's the one up attitude, the "I'm more persecuted than you", which comes from many people also wanting to feel special. That's what I also associate with "holier than thou". My apologies for not making that more understood - I realize that's a connection I make and didn't know others don't.
Esiris There are two reasons that therapy teaches you don't try and say "I know how that feels". 1- because you can't, even if you experience something similar, no two experiences are alike and 2- because when someone is in that space- it's about them, their feelings are center stage. I impulsively try and comfort by letting them know I've been there- but it doesn't help, because it makes people feel like their experiences are secondary to whoever's talking to them. Maybe they are- but they don't want to feel that way and it makes stuff worse.
Yes. Part of why when someone is venting, let them continue, probe them about how they feel about it, let them come up with solutions until they ask you for help. If they are asking if someone else experiences the same thing, then offer one's own experience.
Definitely understand that.
Esiris Quote: How does it help, the "reverse" racism, or the "reverse" sexism, to alleviate the initial unifying issue? Could you phrase this a different way- I think I get what you're saying- but if I don't, I'd rather not guess. sweatdrop
I put reverse into quotes because it's still stereotypes and prejudices held against a race or gender, but because it's placed against the "dominate" one, some might not consider it such.
The idea that men are just trying to keep me down because I'm female - I find that sexist. Just like if a man were to say that all females are just trying to find the easy route. A stereotype experienced by one or a group of individuals and assigned to a common characteristic shared by the observed individual/group.
Esiris Quote: I may be a white, doesn't mean I can't and don't imagine the prejudice that comes with being other than white. Your imagination doesn't give you those experiences though- there's a line between feeling bad for people who've been hurt and trying to "own" their feelings through empathy. I think "empathy" for something that doesn't happen to you is better channeled by letting us own our experiences, and rallying behind us.
I agree that my experiences are limited. I say imagine because I substitute the minorities I belong to in place and direct the scene accordingly.
Do I know exactly what it feels to be discriminated because of my race? No. My imagination and attempts at putting myself in another's shoes because I've listened and seen the discrimination make it easier to understand the frustration and anger though, which is why I have no qualms with supporting those causes.
I don't know if I was communicating that effectively. I'm not trying to say that my imagination makes up for the experiences that I haven't gone through, but that it makes a bridge for me to see the outrage against it all. Does that make more sense?
Esiris Quote: Further, just because I'm female doesn't mean that a male can't or won't understand some of the crap I've experienced that they never will. They can understand things- and know how wrong it is for the stuff to happen. They can even get angry and frustrated!
Exactly! That's the point I was trying to make with the former example.
Many of us belong to numerous categories of sorts. Some are in the majority, some are in the minority. Some of us might be in the majority of one group and the minority of another, or vice versa.
Esiris Quote: There are some white people who are racist. There are some males who are sexist. There are also some non white people who are racist and some non males who are sexist. The part doesn't define the whole and I will not act like it does. You, Nuri and I are feminists. The feminist movement treats us each differently- military, race, gender and money contribute to that- That part, and how it effects us in the "whole" doesn't disappear.
Certainly, other aspects beyond gender and race affect us, our positions and ideals.
My argument was that just because there might be some men who refuse to see the discrimination that still occurs in the name of gender doesn't mean I'm going to treat every male as someone who will further those discriminatory practices. I believe that males can be feminists and white people can be civil rights and equal opportunity activists.
Esiris Who owns the experiences? I think that "Too Much Empathy" can be just as bad as people playing "The Oppression Olympics".
As in how? I'm curious on that front actually.
Esiris I don't think that these different "unifying issues" are really that unifying. I think there are a lot of different smaller groups that fit like a puzzle. Like with the feminist movement- it's more like there's Black Feminism, Latino Feminism, White Feminism, Trans Feminism, Cis Feminism, Upper Class Feminism, Middle Class Feminism, Lower Class Feminism, Straight Feminism, LGBP Feminism etc- and the combination of those things a person lives has a lot to say about how they experience the Feminist Movement- even amongst Feminists.
Like a scale of -isms within a group defined by a common discriminatory status? |
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:41 am
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saint dreya It's a combination of the victim role that people play when they go through, as you put it, the Oppression Olympics. It's the one up attitude, the "I'm more persecuted than you", which comes from many people also wanting to feel special. That's what I also associate with "holier than thou". My apologies for not making that more understood - I realize that's a connection I make and didn't know others don't.
Thanks for describing it- maybe the "one up attitude" has to do with feeling like their experiences aren't being taken seriously- so they try and explain more and it comes across as "Holier Than Thou".
Quote: Yes. Part of why when someone is venting, let them continue, probe them about how they feel about it, let them come up with solutions until they ask you for help. If they are asking if someone else experiences the same thing, then offer one's own experience. Definitely understand that.
Quote: I put reverse into quotes because it's still stereotypes and prejudices held against a race or gender, but because it's placed against the "dominate" one, some might not consider it such. The idea that men are just trying to keep me down because I'm female - I find that sexist. Just like if a man were to say that all females are just trying to find the easy route. A stereotype experienced by one or a group of individuals and assigned to a common characteristic shared by the observed individual/group.
I'm all confused.
I think there are two things that look similar.
1- making sweeping statements about people, like your examples.
2- making statements about systems and cultures that confer privilege.
It's the difference between a direct action by people and people accepting and instinctively ignoring or even trying to protect their privilege.
Quote: I agree that my experiences are limited. I say imagine because I substitute the minorities I belong to in place and direct the scene accordingly. Do I know exactly what it feels to be discriminated because of my race? No. My imagination and attempts at putting myself in another's shoes because I've listened and seen the discrimination make it easier to understand the frustration and anger though, which is why I have no qualms with supporting those causes. I don't know if I was communicating that effectively. I'm not trying to say that my imagination makes up for the experiences that I haven't gone through, but that it makes a bridge for me to see the outrage against it all. Does that make more sense?
Quote: Exactly! That's the point I was trying to make with the former example. Many of us belong to numerous categories of sorts. Some are in the majority, some are in the minority. Some of us might be in the majority of one group and the minority of another, or vice versa.
I grew up thinking about this one a lot- mostly in terms of sexism and racism. I grew up feeling like there was some strange rules where white men had more rights than white women, but black men had more rights than black women- but did black men have more rights than white women or the other way around? I couldn't understand it- mostly because I was little and didn't really get how things fit together in society.
Quote: My argument was that just because there might be some men who refuse to see the discrimination that still occurs in the name of gender doesn't mean I'm going to treat every male as someone who will further those discriminatory practices. I believe that males can be feminists and white people can be civil rights and equal opportunity activists.
Quote: As in how? I'm curious on that front actually.
When you're part of a group and you're struggling, your experiences shape your culture. Someone like me- with all the different little things that indicate being under privileged, there are ways that even people who want to help can cross a line.
The "I know how you feel" card gets played- instead of peple getting that there are differences- there's a kind of assimilation through empathy.
There's a word I'm missing- it's something like "honoring", "respecting", "accepting". The lack of "honoring/respecting/accepting" the difference between being a member of the group v. being an ally is really frustrating.
It's like here I am fighting my battle on all these fronts- and instead of an ally bringing their own sword to the party, they're taking mine from me. Fighting as an ally because it's the right thing to do v. using empathy to take the fight away from the person who's underprivileged.
God I suck at this. Did any of that even make sense? Playing the Oppression Olympics minimizes struggles by saying "My oppression is worse than yours!". Overplaying the Empathy Card minimizes struggles by saying "Your oppression is just like mine!" when they're not.
Esiris Like a scale of -isms within a group defined by a common discriminatory status?
This stuff is really hard to write and I'm sorry I fail. sweatdrop |
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:18 pm
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:34 pm
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