In a bad mood? come here and rant till you feel better

[Shearaha]

Hawk Atreides

I'm sorry, did you just justify honor killings, gay-bashing, lynching, human trafficking, and religious oppression? I don't hate to be harsh. This is the end of the "that's just how it's done" rope you're not acknowledging.

I am not trying to justify those things. I'm sorry if that's where you're taking my statement. But there is a big difference between the posturing, and that's all it is, of what I described and what you think I'm approving by extension.

Hawk Atreides

And the whole "stand up to her father" thing...gods below. So a daughter is a possession that a man must take by show of strength and defiance to prove that he is capable of protecting her against things that might never happen. I refuse to accept that this is ever a good thing.

Did you miss the point where I said OF HER CHOOSING I would never have married a man who couldn't stand up to my father and brother. Because if he couldn't stand up to them, he doubtfully could have stood up to me, and he doubtfully would have been able to protect my future children.
I never said that women are the possession of men, but that it is the mans responsibility to see to the safety and protection of his family. There's a big difference there.
I am capable of taking care of myself, and did so on my own for 2 years before I met my husband. Had I not met him, I would have continued on caring for and protecting myself, I expect the same of my future children. But while the children, male or female, reside in the parents home, it is the fathers duty to be able to protect and care for them. Baring injury and disease.

Hawk Atreides

And yes, as Esiris says, it's criminal behavior. Making a person believe, through show of force or use of threatening words, that you will cause harm to come to them, is at least assault. Start bringing weapons into the mix and you could start getting into felony territory.

I just don't see it. So you're saying that everytime I was threatened with violence I should have reported it to the police? Even when I knew it was an empty threat?  

[Esiris]

Shearaha

Sorry, I just don't see it as assult. Assult is an action, not the threat of action.

I didn't see a lot of abuse as abuse when I was growing up.
Assault 4 includes threats with deadly weapons.

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What I was doing was comparing the gun to the spanking. I put a child in time out, letting them know that if the behavior continues they will get spanked. See the comparison now.

Threatening people with a deadly weapon isn't acceptable. I don't even hitting kids is acceptable. Violence isn't a good thing.

If you want to teach a child to behave, teach them- don't hit them until they stop doing things you dislike.

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My abuse may have messed up my perception, but I still think that there are times and cultures/sub-cultures where this in entirely appropriate behavior.

Which is why Hawk pointed out that groups can do things that they consider "appropriate", but that doesn't make it right.

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This is not domestic abuse. Unless you're saying that the daughter is being abused in this situation.

DV isn't limited to blood relations. In this case- the DV is against the daughter's BF- and it is abuse. I don't care if it's a married couple threatening each other with a gun, a couple that is dating, a parent or child threatening each other or what- and really? The law doesn't care either. It's assault- and it's not okay.  

[Esiris]

Shearaha

but that it is the mans responsibility to see to the safety and protection of his family.

That's really sexist.  

[Shearaha]

Esiris

Shearaha

Sorry, I just don't see it as assult. Assult is an action, not the threat of action.

I didn't see a lot of abuse as abuse when I was growing up.
Assault 4 includes threats with deadly weapons.

Quote:

What I was doing was comparing the gun to the spanking. I put a child in time out, letting them know that if the behavior continues they will get spanked. See the comparison now.

Threatening people with a deadly weapon isn't acceptable. I don't even hitting kids is acceptable. Violence isn't a good thing.

If you want to teach a child to behave, teach them- don't hit them until they stop doing things you dislike.

Quote:

My abuse may have messed up my perception, but I still think that there are times and cultures/sub-cultures where this in entirely appropriate behavior.

Which is why Hawk pointed out that groups can do things that they consider "appropriate", but that doesn't make it right.

Quote:

This is not domestic abuse. Unless you're saying that the daughter is being abused in this situation.

DV isn't limited to blood relations. In this case- the DV is against the daughter's BF- and it is abuse. I don't care if it's a married couple threatening each other with a gun, a couple that is dating, a parent or child threatening each other or what- and really? The law doesn't care either. It's assault- and it's not okay.

Then I'm just going to drop it. It may be as you said, my past abuses messing with my perspective, but I still see nothing wrong with this action unless taken to an extreme.  

[Shearaha]

Esiris

Shearaha

but that it is the mans responsibility to see to the safety and protection of his family.

That's really sexist.

Possibly. Then again this may be a function of my upbringing, but I would not have a man that is unable to protect me. But until I found that man I was and still am perfectly capable of protecting myself. I think that had my sexual orientation been different I may think of this as the dominate partner, or the one who takes the lead. This isn't to say that the female or less dominate person in the relationship belongs to or is less then the other, just that they have different roles within the relationship.
This is a very small sample, but I have one gay friend who thinks that a man he has a relationship with also needs to be like this.

Then again you can take everything I say and toss it out the window.
I do see what you're saying, I just can't wrap my head around your point of view enough to change mine. I will continue to think about it though.  

[Esiris]

Shearaha

Then I'm just going to drop it. It may be as you said, my past abuses messing with my perspective, but I still see nothing wrong with this action unless taken to an extreme.

You should get some counseling for that. You don't want to put your kids through the same stuff.

Shearaha

Possibly. Then again this may be a function of my upbringing, but I would not have a man that is unable to protect me. But until I found that man I was and still am perfectly capable of protecting myself. I think that had my sexual orientation been different I may think of this as the dominate partner, or the one who takes the lead. This isn't to say that the female or less dominate person in the relationship belongs to or is less then the other, just that they have different roles within the relationship.
This is a very small sample, but I have one gay friend who thinks that a man he has a relationship with also needs to be like this.

Then again you can take everything I say and toss it out the window.
I do see what you're saying, I just can't wrap my head around your point of view enough to change mine. I will continue to think about it though.

I wish you the best.  

[Satyr Prince]

Shearaha

What I was doing was comparing the gun to the spanking. I put a child in time out, letting them know that if the behavior continues they will get spanked. See the comparison now.

spanking a child is abuse. point blank. i dont care if it's culturally acceptable, it is abuse.  

[Taliah]

Strega Mama

Shearaha

What I was doing was comparing the gun to the spanking. I put a child in time out, letting them know that if the behavior continues they will get spanked. See the comparison now.

spanking a child is abuse. point blank. i dont care if it's culturally acceptable, it is abuse.

No. There's a line between a spanking and child abuse. Eventually when I have children, if primary disciplinary measures do not get the kid to behave, a spanking is in order. A spanking does not automatically mean I am inflicting pain because I want to, or that I will use full force - not in the slightest. But that child will understand they cannot get away with the inappropriate behavior, and if they push it then I will spank them. It's a last resort, because I will work hard to have primary discipline be emphasized and understood, and not just spank the kid stupid because I won't take the time to explain right and wrong.  

[Esiris]

Taliah

No. There's a line between a spanking and child abuse. Eventually when I have children, if primary disciplinary measures do not get the kid to behave, a spanking is in order. A spanking does not automatically mean I am inflicting pain because I want to, or that I will use full force - not in the slightest. But that child will understand they cannot get away with the inappropriate behavior, and if they push it then I will spank them. It's a last resort, because I will work hard to have primary discipline be emphasized and understood, and not just spank the kid stupid because I won't take the time to explain right and wrong.

Hitting someone to scare them into doing things you want them to isn't any different in my eyes than a partner who smacks their spouse around to teach them.  

[Taliah]

Esiris

Taliah

No. There's a line between a spanking and child abuse. Eventually when I have children, if primary disciplinary measures do not get the kid to behave, a spanking is in order. A spanking does not automatically mean I am inflicting pain because I want to, or that I will use full force - not in the slightest. But that child will understand they cannot get away with the inappropriate behavior, and if they push it then I will spank them. It's a last resort, because I will work hard to have primary discipline be emphasized and understood, and not just spank the kid stupid because I won't take the time to explain right and wrong.

Hitting someone to scare them into doing things you want them to isn't any different in my eyes than a partner who smacks their spouse around to teach them.

That's kind of a weird comparison. Adults have different cognitive levels than children do. Yours seems more like plain abuse.  

[Esiris]

Taliah

That's kind of a weird comparison. Adults have different cognitive levels than children do. Yours seems more like plain abuse.

Different ways of learning isn't the same as different capacities to learn.

Children are bright- and if you work to teach them, they learn. After all, all hitting does is "teach them" that you're a person to be feared because if they don't do what you say, you'll hurt them.

That's all "spanking" is after all- control through fear. And really, that's all domestic abuse is. But parents "loose patience" and they don't want to work on helping the child understand- they just want a behavior to stop so they hit.  

[Taliah]

Children are bright, but up to a certain age, they don't quite understand concepts like "put yourself in their shoes" or "mom says no because that will hurt me". That's going by my Human Development classes if I remember right. It's not that they won't understand, it's just that it takes a few years.

But what I said was spanking was a last resort. I don't want to spank necessarily, but when the primary disciplinary tactics aren't getting through (and I mean to put serious emphasis on it early on) and they are testing the boundaries, I will not let my child run over me.

From my experience, spankings weren't traumatic. They stung, yeah, made me rethink disobeying for sure. Understanding came a little later. Oh, mom spanked me because I drew on the wall with a permanent marker - it will be hard to clean off, or never will come out. The concept of permanence, of the work to clean up as a kid I did not, and honestly probably couldn't quite grasp at that time. So I was spanked to be deterred from that behavior.

I guess it makes me old fashioned, but I think it builds character when done properly.  

[Esiris]

Taliah

Children are bright, but up to a certain age, they don't quite understand concepts like "put yourself in their shoes" or "mom says no because that will hurt me". That's going by my Human Development classes if I remember right. It's not that they won't understand, it's just that it takes a few years.

I've seen studies that contradict that.

Damn, I mean- infants will often cry out of empathy for other crying infants. So again- I think they understand when they are educated, but how good that education is will always be the key.

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But what I said was spanking was a last resort. I don't want to spank necessarily, but when the primary disciplinary tactics aren't getting through (and I mean to put serious emphasis on it early on) and they are testing the boundaries, I will not let my child run over me.

And hitting them to teach them people will hurt them if they don't do what other people want them to do is a good thing? No.

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From my experience, spankings weren't traumatic. They stung, yeah, made me rethink disobeying for sure. Understanding came a little later. Oh, mom spanked me because I drew on the wall with a permanent marker - it will be hard to clean off, or never will come out. The concept of permanence, of the work to clean up as a kid I did not, and honestly probably couldn't quite grasp at that time. So I was spanked to be deterred from that behavior.

And now you think it's acceptable to hit your child. Well, if that kind of programming isn't evidence of trauma, I'm not sure what would count. Call it being old fashioned if you want- but so are a lot of horrible things- but then, Abuse is a character trait- so you're right about that.

The real question is if it's good character.  

[Satyr Prince]

Taliah

Children are bright, but up to a certain age, they don't quite understand concepts like "put yourself in their shoes" or "mom says no because that will hurt me". That's going by my Human Development classes if I remember right.

from my experience parenting twins i can tell you that that is all bogus. they do understand all that before they can even talk. i make my very sad and hurt face when they hit mommy, and they get sad and give mommy apology hugs. i have never and never will hit my kids. there is NEVER an excuse to do so.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Strega Mama

i have never and never will hit my kids. there is NEVER an excuse to do so.

Self defense.

Just sayin.