In a bad mood? come here and rant till you feel better

[Cunning Witch Angus]

Esiris

I also don't feel that the tables should be turned and have you look down on us because we feel it can be appropriate to show sexuality in public.

What about the thoughts of others? Sexuality should be a private thing; by making it public you are ruining the sacredness of it. I am not going to keep quiet about it because that shows weakness.

Esiris

I don't see it as showing off, I see it as bringing awareness to the shortfalls and triumphs.

(Suck on that Prop 8!)

More like bring awareness to what people like to do in the bedroom which is no one's business. No one needs to know how I act in the bedroom and no one will force me to to show it to anyone.

Esiris

Do you think women would be able to vote if we had quietly asked repeatedly? Would the Woman's Rights Movement have given us the legal protection we have now if we had decided to be silent?

Ah, but did women run around naked? Boycotting is just as much a protest as shouting and tossing about paraphernalia.

Esiris

Sometimes being loud gets the most change in the shortest amount of time.

Impatience gets us no where. We are celebrating before we have full equality.

Esiris

I understand some of how you feel. The only thing that the mainstream comments on is what makes us different. That means who we have sex with and what's in our pants. There isn't the support for us and a lot of mistakes happen when we start to deal with who we are. I know how frustrating that can be.

And yet having parades and things only shows how completely different we are from the rest of society. It is the same with Black History month; why not just integrate it into the normal history curriculum! Way to separate the diverse peoples more than they need to be!

Esiris

If you feel degraded, it isn't for you. But if I don't, why should I do what is right for you instead of what is right for me?

Go ahead and streak, but if you run past me I am going to say something about how rude you are being when I am taking a nice morning walk. Do you think I would just close my eyes and wait until you pass?

Esiris

I think hating someone for being naked has more to do with their head then mine though. But then, I'm a big fan of Sex Positive Culture and a casual nudist.

I do not hate them for being naked, I think it is rude. Children don't need to see giant cocks waving in their faces. And others that are there just to support their friends don't need to see what their friends see in the bedroom. It is rude and disgraceful and creates stereotypes about the community that are not needed.  

[rmcdra]

Esiris

Mighty Morphing Power Ranger,
Have you seen the Boondocks?
Do you understand what Uncle Ruckus is about?

Yes I have and yes I do understand what Uncle Ruckus represents but do explain how you feel that Angus is being an "Uncle Ruckus" since you felt it was appropriate to compare him to that.  

[Cunning Witch Angus]

Esiris

Mighty Morphing Power Ranger,
Have you seen the Boondocks?
Do you understand what Uncle Ruckus is about?

I feel offended that you would compare me to such a character! I do not hate gay people, nor do I hate myself. I hate the fact that the community shuns me because I do not wish to be placed in a box. I hate the fact that they think I have to be like them. I hate the fact that gay men that I meet want me to have sex with them just because I am gay. I love the LBGT community, they just piss me the hell off.  

[Esiris]

Arcanist Angus

Sexuality should be a private thing; by making it public you are ruining the sacredness of it. I am not going to keep quiet about it because that shows weakness.

I think you said it best in the Witchcraft thread. "I've also come to this conclusion: I shouldn't try to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct."

I think Sexuality doesn't have to be hidden like a dirty little secret for it to be sacred. Sex Positive Culture allows for sexuality and love to be sacred without being hidden.

When I am at my Master's side, I am sacred, no matter where I am.

Quote:

More like bring awareness to what people like to do in the bedroom which is no one's business. No one needs to know how I act in the bedroom and no one will force me to to show it to anyone.

Good for you. Don't show it. But
"I've also come to this conclusion: I shouldn't try to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct." Which means that if I want to show it (and largely the over-sexed actions during pride are parody of the stereotypes) I will.

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Ah, but did women run around naked? Boycotting is just as much a protest as shouting and tossing about paraphernalia.

Yep. Boycotting and picketing are good forms of protest. There are other forms of protest too.
I shouldn't try to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct, so I'll use what forms of protest I please.

Quote:

Impatience gets us no where. We are celebrating before we have full equality.

I don't know about you, but I'm celebrating the steps forward we've made. I don't have to be on my deathbed to celebrate my life and I don't have to be viewed as an equal to celebrate the triumphs we've already made.

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And yet having parades and things only shows how completely different we are from the rest of society. It is the same with Black History month; why not just integrate it into the normal history curriculum! Way to separate the diverse peoples more than they need to be!

Because being invisible makes it easier for people to ignore the fact we're second class citizens.

Because being different isn't bad. And the sooner people learn that, the sooner life will be better for all of us.

Being invisible is a subtle way of trying to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct.

Quote:

Go ahead and streak, but if you run past me I am going to say something about how rude you are being when I am taking a nice morning walk. Do you think I would just close my eyes and wait until you pass?

You're welcome to say something rude. That makes you a rude person and if you don't care about that, fine.

It also means that you're a hypocrite if you feel hurt when people say something rude about the fact we're not hetero.

Quote:

I do not hate them for being naked, I think it is rude. Children don't need to see giant cocks waving in their faces. And others that are there just to support their friends don't need to see what their friends see in the bedroom. It is rude and disgraceful and creates stereotypes about the community that are not needed.

That's fine that you feel that way.
But I've also come to this conclusion: I shouldn't try to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct.  

[Cunning Witch Angus]

Esiris

I think you said it best in the Witchcraft thread. "I've also come to this conclusion: I shouldn't try to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct."

I was speaking in terms about my beliefs, actually. I can still speak out against people flaunting their sexuality in public just as I can speak out against people flaunting their beliefs in public. I hate political correctness.

Esiris

I think Sexuality doesn't have to be hidden like a dirty little secret for it to be sacred. Sex Positive Culture allows for sexuality and love to be sacred without being hidden.

I never said it was a dirty little secret, stop putting words in my mouth.

Esiris

Good for you. Don't show it. But
"I've also come to this conclusion: I shouldn't try to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct." Which means that if I want to show it (and largely the over-sexed actions during pride are parody of the stereotypes) I will.

And yet I can still speak out against it. Stop parroting me, it is doing nothing but affirming my beliefs.

Esiris

Yep. Boycotting and picketing are good forms of protest. There are other forms of protest too.
I shouldn't try to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct, so I'll use what forms of protest I please.

Way to copy me and contradict the point of my statement at the same time. Again, I can still speak out against it.

Esiris

I don't know about you, but I'm celebrating the steps forward we've made. I don't have to be on my deathbed to celebrate my life and I don't have to be viewed as an equal to celebrate the triumphs we've already made.

And furthering the schism between heterosexuals and homosexuals by creating a "hetersexual agenda" way to be.

Esiris

Because being invisible makes it easier for people to ignore the fact we're second class citizens.

Because being different isn't bad. And the sooner people learn that, the sooner life will be better for all of us.

Being invisible is a subtle way of trying to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct.

And yet, I am not invisible. And yet, I am not a second class citizen. And yet I am different and an anomaly and still the center of a crowd. I stand up for myself and hold people accountable for their actions and don't make an entire group of people my enemy because they aren't homosexual.

Esiris

You're welcome to say something rude. That makes you a rude person and if you don't care about that, fine.

It also means that you're a hypocrite if you feel hurt when people say something rude about the fact we're not hetero.

Putting words in my mouth again: I said I would tell you off for being rude. I would do so in a polite manner and explain to you why running about naked offends me. If you see that as rude then on your head be it.

Esiris

That's fine that you feel that way.
But I've also come to this conclusion: I shouldn't try to force myself into a box of what I think is the correct way of doing something because someone else says it is correct.

No, I have come to that conclusion, you are parroting me. I never said that having cloths is "correct" nor is it "true". I think that it is polite for other people to see others in cloths and that to wave cocks and boobs in front of innocent children is a horribly immoral thing to do and I will speak out against it out of respect of the parents of those children.

Because I, apparently unlike you, respect the individual rights of others and the minds of others and will speak for them when they can not find a voice.

The only reason that you like to be loud is, from what I gather, for the shock value of "OMG There are gay people here and they are all naked, what do I do?" and try to force them to concede that that is how gay people are and that they "have to accept it". I am not like that and I will not be affiliated with the nudist society of the homosexual community, thank you very much. I will not be affiliated with the drugged out homosexuals and the flamers and the hetero-haters and the Christian-haters.

I am Angus, I am gay and I will be gay in the privacy of my own home without fear of conviction or anything like that. I will walk the streets proudly being gay, dressed in fantastic cloths that are not overtly flashy and do not offend the general public around me.

And if one more person calls me straight-acting because I choose not to have a lisp, and not to go to gay-only bars, and not to take off my shirt and wear short shorts because everyone else is I am going to throttle them!

The latter is not directed at you but at the person who just IMed me about my suit on a gay chat site!  

[Esiris]

Arcanist Angus

I hate political correctness.

Ironic, since shuffling off sexuality as a secret is often found in political correctness.

Quote:

I never said it was a dirty little secret, stop putting words in my mouth.

Not putting words in your mouth. I'm pointing out that this is the attitude that breads the whole "OH NO! No Sexuality in Public!" mindframe.

The Christian Church treated sexuality as dirty and wrong. As Christianity developed, some branches took it more seriously than others. The Puritans, some of the earliest European settlers took it very seriously. This has been handed down through our country because of it and inherited by us.

I think it's stupid. I think it's ******** absurd that in the US a mom gets glares for breast feeding her child, that my boobs make it so I can't go topless on a hot day while my Master can.

I've lived in places where my body wasn't treated like a shameful thing that had to be hidden.

Quote:

And yet I can still speak out against it. Stop parroting me, it is doing nothing but affirming my beliefs.

Then you're a hypocrite. If you feel you don't have to do something just because someone else says it's correct, but then say rude things about the rest of us because we don't mindlessly agree with you, do you not see why that's a double standard?

Quote:

Way to copy me and contradict the point of my statement at the same time. Again, I can still speak out against it.

Way to be so emotionally in your own head that you can't even consider other people's positions.

Speak out all you want. Expect people who embrace a Sex Positive Culture to highlight that there is hypocrisy in your words, that you're tarring all of Pride with the same brush, that you're not understanding parody and that your "No Pride" stance is the kind of silence that homophobes want from us. If people don't have to think about the fact that we're second class citizens living in their midst, they don't have to do jack to give us any rights.

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And furthering the schism between heterosexuals and homosexuals by creating a "hetersexual agenda" way to be.

Actually, furthering the schism between homophobes and homosexuals. It's wrong of you to think all heterosexuals see parody as an insult, considering how much heterosexual support Pride has.

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And yet, I am not invisible. And yet, I am not a second class citizen.

If you're a gay man, you are a second class citizen. You do not have the rights that straight men have.
You're like my people were, back when the laws said we couldn't marry who we wanted if they didn't have the same color of skin.

In your case, you don't get to marry who you want because of what is in their pants.

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I stand up for myself and hold people accountable for their actions and don't make an entire group of people my enemy because they aren't homosexual.

Could you stop insulting the straights? They're not stupid sheep who engage in bigotry just because they're not GLBT.

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Putting words in my mouth again: I said I would tell you off for being rude. I would do so in a polite manner and explain to you why running about naked offends me. If you see that as rude then on your head be it.

Yep. I see it as rude. But then, the annual Mud Run is a time honored tradition and you'd be quite the a** to tell me, a person who is on a nude beach with a demonstration permit that I'm not allowed to do what I please.

Quote:

No, I have come to that conclusion, you are parroting me. I never said that having cloths is "correct" nor is it "true". I think that it is polite for other people to see others in cloths and that to wave cocks and boobs in front of innocent children is a horribly immoral thing to do and I will speak out against it out of respect of the parents of those children.

Are you afraid that if the kid sees some boobs they'll want a snack?

Clearly you consider clothes to be correct and lack of clothes to be incorrect.

While you're talking about children and morality- feel like yelling at any and all married couples that forget to lock their bedroom door only to have little Tommy wander in and see Mommy and Daddy wrestling? Or how about the heterosexuals who enjoy public sex?

Or is this only aimed at the GLBT community?

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Because I, apparently unlike you, respect the individual rights of others

Unless of course you don't like the individual rights of others- such as my right to be naked and my right to celebrate the strides we've made.

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The only reason that you like to be loud is, from what I gather, for the shock value of "OMG There are gay people here and they are all naked, what do I do?" and try to force them to concede that that is how gay people are and that they "have to accept it". I am not like that and I will not be affiliated with the nudist society of the homosexual community, thank you very much. I will not be affiliated with the drugged out homosexuals and the flamers and the hetero-haters and the Christian-haters.

It's funny you talk about putting words in people's mouth only to do it to me.

The public nudity I have seen has been in three forms:
The Annual Mud Run
Men and women ******** in the park
The Solstice Naked Bikers

Gee. No Pride. But then, two of those have to do with permitted public nudity and the third has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

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I am Angus, I am gay and I will be gay in the privacy of my own home without fear of conviction or anything like that. I will walk the streets proudly being gay, dressed in fantastic cloths that are not overtly flashy and do not offend the general public around me.

And if one more person calls me straight-acting because I choose not to have a lisp, and not to go to gay-only bars, and not to take off my shirt and wear short shorts because everyone else is I am going to throttle them!

The latter is not directed at you but at the person who just IMed me about my suit on a gay chat site!

I'm Riri. I'm Bi. I'm sex-positive. I'll do what I please, not breaking any laws and I won't let the fact that homophobes don't want me to celebrate the strides the GLBT community has made quite me. I'll roll my eyes at parody in Pride, because it's not very well done. I will not defame them for their frustration causing them to act out. I will not insult Pride because it causes rifts between homophobes and decent human beings.

If one more person tries to prey on the inbuilt cultural fear of my body and sexuality in order to silence me into doing what they want- I'll shove my boot up their a**. Same goes for anyone who tries to tell me that I'm not Bi, but just very confused.

Again, not directed at you.  

[Iron Harlot]

What I don't understand is why everyone seems to associate being naked with being sexual. Why can't I have nonsexual nudity?  

[Esiris]

Iron Harlot

What I don't understand is why everyone seems to associate being naked with being sexual. Why can't I have nonsexual nudity?

It's the same line of thought that Sheik al-Hilali used when he said "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?

The uncovered meat is the problem.

If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."  

[Collowrath]

Angus, it looks to me like you're blaming the problems of the gay community on the gay community itself - as if, if we didn't "act this way," homophobes wouldn't treat us this way. I'm sorry if your experience within the community has not been to your standards (there are a lot of problems with gay culture, body-cult among them), but that doesn't warrant such a blatant denial of reality. The fact is, in Western culture, we ARE defined in part by our gender and sexual preferences. I certainly never, and nobody I know, ever chose for us to be pushed into the "other" category because of who we sleep with - that was done against our will. A lot of GLBT culture is in direct reaction to that; hence, why so much of it is done in parody of stereotypes.

I understand your conservative views toward sexuality. I have a pretty conservative demeanor and have picked up a lot of what my culture defines as "feminine" characteristics, especially when it comes to standards of modesty in dress (I wear pants and long sleeves when I'm not around my husband/family, for instance). My actions and speech aren't stereotypically gay, though I speak in a very precise way with a slight mid-Ohio/Slovak accent that is sometimes mis-glossed.

I've been gay-bashed and publicly humiliated. Walking to my car in downtown Columbus, Ohio - a city well known for being gay friendly - I've been attacked because I was perceived as gay. I assure you that, unlike the hurtful and gross stereotype you've presented here, my c**k was not being displayed and all my clothes were on.

Your insinuations here that this is somehow my fault because I choose to be involved with my community is somehow worse to me than being assaulted for having gone to the wrong bar.

@Gho: sad *hug*

@IRON HARLOT: I understand what you mean. Even here, where our Pride events are so huge, it seems the only real trans presence is as a huge joke. Somehow I can't seem to find it funny. >.>

*Post edited for word choice.  

[Esiris]

Collowrath

Angus, it looks to me like you're blaming the problems of the gay community on the gay community itself - as if, if we didn't "act this way," heteros wouldn't treat us this way.

Can we stop using hetero and use homophobe instead? All my Hetero friends treat me well and I think it's only fair to respect them and not lump them in with people who mistreat us.  

[Collowrath]

Esiris

Collowrath

Angus, it looks to me like you're blaming the problems of the gay community on the gay community itself - as if, if we didn't "act this way," heteros wouldn't treat us this way.

Can we stop using hetero and use homophobe instead? All my Hetero friends treat me well and I think it's only fair to respect them and not lump them in with people who mistreat us.

You're right - I was being far too general and reactionary and wasn't treating people fairly. I will change it.  

[Esiris]

Collowrath

You're right - I was being far too general and reactionary and wasn't treating people fairly. I will change it.

Thank you.  

[Ultramarine Violet]

Maybe it's none of my effing business, but just in the interest of some outside perspective...

What I see here is a lot of expectations and- dare I?- prejudices being laid out on both sides.

Iron Harlot - I am a big believer in taking strides toward equality and a sex-positive culture, but like any social reform, these things take time, and all shock factor does is... Well, shock people. It's not the thought-provoking tactic it used to be, because many Americans have forgotten how to think. I'm glad that you are proud of yourself, your love, and your body. Unfortunately, the current cultural standard does not equip people to handle that, so you must accordingly be prepared for people to make certain assumptions about you because of how you conduct yourself. Social reform isn't going to happen all at once, just because you ask it to- and even if it did, would you consider it a battle fairly and ethically won?

Angus - Your moderate behavior and personal comfort with your lifestyle are to be looked upon with admiration. The trouble is not your behavior, but the arrangement of social expectations imposed on you. Thank you for rising above those constraints and emerging a rich, strong, three-dimensional personality.

Unfortunately, it is my belief that the gay rights movement has shot itself in the foot by supporting any stereotype of "The Average Homosexual." The casualties are counted among the individuals who find it unnecessary to measure themselves against the 'visible average.'

This is the part where you both tell me to sod off. /$.02  

[Cunning Witch Angus]

I have no pride, I want pride but I can not or do not know how to obtain it.

It hurts that I can not enjoy my sexuality like my friends can.

Instead of people trying to help me fix this I get shunned because I have no pride.

Do I have to act a certain way to be considered gay?

Do I have to wear Abercrombie, or support public nudity in pride parades, or go to gay-bars and hit on everyone in sight?

Perhaps I have grown up hating the stereotypes and think that everyone is a stereotype, even myself at times.

Moo.

I'm just really confused and I feel dirty because of how I can not accept myself for who I am, nor can I accept others that try to force me to be what I feel is the subscribed way of being gay.

I feel hypocritical and lost and I don't want to do anything and just become indifferent because that is the easiest way to get past a political problem.

It's like when Obama was being elected: I did not vote for him nor did I vote against him, I simply did not want to get involved.

It is the same with gay rights, I neither want them nor do I not want them. I just want to float.

I don't see that far into the future, who knows if I will even live that long, so what is the point.

Apathy is easiest and more convenient, but I hate being that way. I just don't want to expose myself.

I watched Milk the other day and how he said that every door should be broken with a bullet to my brain and it always makes me cry. I feel that I have not completely shut the door that it is still open so I can just run back in if I feel threatened.

I have put on so many masks that I don't know which is the true face.

I blame others for this instead of myself, but the true problem lies within.

I don't want to see public nudity because it intrigues me and makes me jealous. I don't want others to see my interest because they will think badly of me.

What is the point....

There is no point. And yet there is but I can not grasp it.

I feel as though there are so many boxes and people are trying to shove me into them but I make my way out only to be pushed into another box because if I don't think this way or that way I am a bad person.

Apathy is so much simpler.  

[Esiris]

Arcanist Angus

Do I have to wear Abercrombie,

I hope not.

To quote Oscar Wilde, "Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months."