This is a stupid question but I'm going to ask anyway thread

[Recursive Paradox]

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

So if you were faced with someone from within the Rroma community who was trying to use the exonym g~ to describe themselves in a claiming maneuver, you would contest that person's basis for doing so?

Yep. And I'd pull out the positions of Rroma rights activists, as well as the psychological studies regarding how such terms actually make people feel (many folks who seek to reclaim still are stung by the negative associations) as well as the sociological justifications for self-determination as a nation. (And that would be a pain in the a**, because I don't know where a fraction of them are)

Most of the studies I am familiar with have been in relation to African Americans and the N~ word, but the principle is the same.

Okay.

Quote:

Quote:

Next question. Can someone without the perspective of being a part of the community in question argue against the claiming of an exonym by a member of the community in question with any level of credibility?

Or does one's privilege make that impossible?

Sound research is sound research no matter who is proffering it. That said, in closed cultures, it may seem like an intrusion. Intellectually honest individuals won't fault you for not being part of the culture- but you have to be respectful of their boundaries.

Alright. The particular situation I'm in right now is that I came across a comment in a feminist blog (addressing a post not directly related to the racially charged situations the Rroma face right now) from a person with the g~ word in her blogger name.

I followed the link and found that she was at least aware of the Rroma. So I asked her: "Are you a member of the Rroma community and attempting to reclaim the g~ word? Or someone trying to use it from outside the culture?"

I had it confirmed for me from someone who knew her IRL that she is indeed part of the Rroma community, including a culture participant. The individual herself has not responded to me as of yet.

How would I, as an outsider with a high degree of racial privilege (being white), operate in such a way as to respect boundaries and retain credibility when dealing with a cultural insider who is doing something I find to be problematic (attempting to reclaim an exonym) and have confirmed to be problematic for the community in question?  

[Collowrath]

CilverCyanide

Hmm.. Here's a good one that I'm sure everyone's come across a situation like this:
How do you approach telling someone that they're not Wiccan when they use the title to describe their belief system? Especially, if the conversation takes place offline where the security blanket of being able to hide yourself and think out your thoughts thoroughly is no longer there.
As a person who's in the know, do you just nod and let things slide or do you tactfully try to correct them? How about for those who are newbies to new age and occult jargon how would you tell them in a nonoffensive and easy to understand way?

Honestly, I would only do so if the conversation called for it. I have a major cultural aversion toward disagreement in most social situations. In general though, if the conversation goes in that direction, my response would tend to be "Oh, so you're an eclectic neopagan then." I try to combine it with a disarming smile. Again, the cultural aversion toward social discord can be pretty strong, but I try to steer the conversation in a reasonable direction, such as adding: "Wicca hadn't come around until Gardner's revelation - the varying traditions (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Mohsian, etc) tend to agree at the very least on its status as a closed mystery fertility cult." and varying comments about the intellectual honesty of popular neopagan authors.

Honestly, I don't tend to go about correcting people in general, though I can be defensive about my own traditions.  

[saint dreya]

CilverCyanide

Hmm.. Here's a good one that I'm sure everyone's come across a situation like this:
How do you approach telling someone that they're not Wiccan when they use the title to describe their belief system? Especially, if the conversation takes place offline where the security blanket of being able to hide yourself and think out your thoughts thoroughly is no longer there.
As a person who's in the know, do you just nod and let things slide or do you tactfully try to correct them? How about for those who are newbies to new age and occult jargon how would you tell them in a nonoffensive and easy to understand way?

In the words of Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Depending on my relationship with the person, I might gently coerce them to go look up Gardner, citing him as the founder and there are certain "rules" or aspects that need to be followed. If I think the person unworthy of the energy of correcting them (which is usually coupled with numerous conversations to see whether they would be able to continue expressing their thoughts intelligently), I'll usually drop association with them and move on.  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

Hey Fiddler>> What do you think about people seeking reparations for their ancestors from the decedents of those who victimized said ancestors when it can be demonstrated that said descendants are benefiting from their ancestors actions?

On an individual basis, never on a group basis.
Now, that having been said... I am dicey about it. On one hand, I would consider it correct and honourable for the beneficiary to provide some restitution to the one who was harmed, or their inheritors... On the other, attempting to force it would seem just as wrong to me as the original act. For starters, I would demand that anyone seeking reparations also prove that they have not in their ancestry received ill gotten gains. Just to be sure that their victimized ancestors had a right to what was taken from them in the first place. Secondly, if they approach from an accusatory position, I would be less inclined to favour them. If they want someone to be held accountable for the sins of their ancestors, let them also be held up the same. Let the son of the thief pay back the fine. Let the daughter of the murderer be executed by the child of the slain. I will only accept inherited guilt if it is universal.
I suppose the heart of the matter is the term benefiting is too vague. It also supposes that they would still have what their ancestor had, and that it would no have been lost otherwise.... it further assumes that the beneficiary would have had the benefit no other way... This is all rife with logical fallacy.
So, while I encourage restitution, I cannot support demanding it.  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

I suppose the heart of the matter is the term benefiting is too vague. It also supposes that they would still have what their ancestor had, and that it would no have been lost otherwise.... it further assumes that the beneficiary would have had the benefit no other way... This is all rife with logical fallacy.
So, while I encourage restitution, I cannot support demanding it.

I'm not sure it assumes that the decedent would have said position, but that it merely acknowledges that their own ability to control a basic aspect of their life would not have been taken away from them.

In terms of things like artwork, a Jewish family who possessed some of the worlds most famous paintings may well have sold off that art to collectors. But it is the ability to make that decision that was taken, and it is that ability that is being restored.  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

I'm not sure it assumes that the decedent would have said position, but that it merely acknowledges that their own ability to control a basic aspect of their life would not have been taken away from them.

No.
I would not acknowledge that at all. As a matter that predates them, they never had control over it in the first place. It also assumes that no one else would have taken it. Also, I hardly consider, in the following case, an object of art to eb a basic aspect of life.

TeaDidikai

In terms of things like artwork, a Jewish family who possessed some of the worlds most famous paintings may well have sold off that art to collectors. But it is the ability to make that decision that was taken, and it is that ability that is being restored.

Assuming they never stole that art, nor, ever at all, in their lineage benefited from dishonest dealings that gave them the ability to have it.

If we want to apply this to it's fullest, we should all open our bellies over the evils that any random ancestor of ours committed. At some point, people have to make something of what they were born with. No it isn't fair. Life isn't fair.

Before people start lambasting with their own racist drivel, yes, I have Caucasian blood. But guess what, I am my own person. I left home a decade ago and have not taken a penny from them, everything I have now is mine by blood and sweat. My family had everything taken from them after the War Twixt the States. You know what we did? We relocated and we survived. You know why they were in the U.S. in the first place? Because Bismark and his Kaiser-puppet shoved them out of Deutschland or the English ground their steady cruelties in Wales. We fsking lost. It happened a lot. It sucked. It still sucks. And after this parade of indignities, what do I get? I'm the oppressor for being White!?! I get to hear how all the other loser's children in the world deserve this that or the other. All I can think is stop your @#$% whining and make something of yourself. If you want something, take it. My heart goes out to all those who are directly being abused. 'Twere I in a position to do so, my hand would go out to them as well. As it is, it would be empty, and that helps no one. As for those who were dealt a bad hand, sucks to be us. I'll help you where I can, but get in line behind people who are actively being held down.  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

TeaDidikai

I'm not sure it assumes that the decedent would have said position, but that it merely acknowledges that their own ability to control a basic aspect of their life would not have been taken away from them.

No.
I would not acknowledge that at all. As a matter that predates them, they never had control over it in the first place. It also assumes that no one else would have taken it. Also, I hardly consider, in the following case, an object of art to eb a basic aspect of life.

Actually, it doesn't assume that no one else would have taken it. It merely points out that the position that was forced can be dealt with.

What makes up "a basic aspect of life?" Why would we limit restoration to such?

Quote:

Assuming they never stole that art, nor, ever at all, in their lineage benefited from dishonest dealings that gave them the ability to have it.

If we want to apply this to it's fullest, we should all open our bellies over the evils that any random ancestor of ours committed. At some point, people have to make something of what they were born with. No it isn't fair. Life isn't fair.

Before people start lambasting with their own racist drivel, yes, I have Caucasian blood. But guess what, I am my own person. I left home a decade ago and have not taken a penny from them, everything I have now is mine by blood and sweat. My family had everything taken from them after the War Twixt the States. You know what we did? We relocated and we survived. You know why they were in the U.S. in the first place? Because Bismark and his Kaiser-puppet shoved them out of Deutschland or the English ground their steady cruelties in Wales. We fsking lost. It happened a lot. It sucked. It still sucks. And after this parade of indignities, what do I get? I'm the oppressor for being White!?! I get to hear how all the other loser's children in the world deserve this that or the other. All I can think is stop your @#$% whining and make something of yourself. If you want something, take it. My heart goes out to all those who are directly being abused. 'Twere I in a position to do so, my hand would go out to them as well. As it is, it would be empty, and that helps no one. As for those who were dealt a bad hand, sucks to be us. I'll help you where I can, but get in line behind people who are actively being held down.

I guess this is where we disagree. I fundamentally believe that when systemic persecution exists and deprives those and their decedents, part of removing that systemic persecution is to restore the people in question. There's getting a raw deal, and then there's not being able to "make something of yourself" because you're not equal.

As for "being the oppressor for being White", anyone who thinks that way is just as guilty as any they could honestly point their finger at.  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

Fiddlers Green

TeaDidikai

I'm not sure it assumes that the decedent would have said position, but that it merely acknowledges that their own ability to control a basic aspect of their life would not have been taken away from them.

No.
I would not acknowledge that at all. As a matter that predates them, they never had control over it in the first place. It also assumes that no one else would have taken it. Also, I hardly consider, in the following case, an object of art to eb a basic aspect of life.

Actually, it doesn't assume that no one else would have taken it. It merely points out that the position that was forced can be dealt with.

What makes up "a basic aspect of life?" Why would we limit restoration to such?

I bolded the above to explain why I misunderstood.

TeaDidikai

Fiddlers Green

Assuming they never stole that art, nor, ever at all, in their lineage benefited from dishonest dealings that gave them the ability to have it.

If we want to apply this to it's fullest, we should all open our bellies over the evils that any random ancestor of ours committed. At some point, people have to make something of what they were born with. No it isn't fair. Life isn't fair.

Before people start lambasting with their own racist drivel, yes, I have Caucasian blood. But guess what, I am my own person. I left home a decade ago and have not taken a penny from them, everything I have now is mine by blood and sweat. My family had everything taken from them after the War Twixt the States. You know what we did? We relocated and we survived. You know why they were in the U.S. in the first place? Because Bismark and his Kaiser-puppet shoved them out of Deutschland or the English ground their steady cruelties in Wales. We fsking lost. It happened a lot. It sucked. It still sucks. And after this parade of indignities, what do I get? I'm the oppressor for being White!?! I get to hear how all the other loser's children in the world deserve this that or the other. All I can think is stop your @#$% whining and make something of yourself. If you want something, take it. My heart goes out to all those who are directly being abused. 'Twere I in a position to do so, my hand would go out to them as well. As it is, it would be empty, and that helps no one. As for those who were dealt a bad hand, sucks to be us. I'll help you where I can, but get in line behind people who are actively being held down.

I guess this is where we disagree. I fundamentally believe that when systemic persecution exists and deprives those and their decedents, part of removing that systemic persecution is to restore the people in question. There's getting a raw deal, and then there's not being able to "make something of yourself" because you're not equal.

As for "being the oppressor for being White", anyone who thinks that way is just as guilty as any they could honestly point their finger at.

And I believe if the systematic persecution exists, it must be dealt with. When it existed, and is regulated to the past tense, it has been dealt with as well as it is going to be without creating a new class of persecuted peoples.
We disagree, and I am well with that.  

[TeaDidikai]

It seems we agree more in concept than our words convey.  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

It seems we agree more in concept than our words convey.

Indeed, and the osseous mass of contention is one that I, while firm about, am not trying to win any recruits for. 3nodding  

[kage no neko]

If the Norse and Egyptian and Greek etc gods are willing/able to respond..
What about the Christian God?

From what I understand, many Christians don't expect God to respond, or at least I don't think they're listening in the right way. I believe He does answer, just everyone seems to be expecting him to literally speak to them.  

[Wrath of Ezekiel]

kage no neko

If the Norse and Egyptian and Greek etc gods are willing/able to respond..
What about the Christian God?

From what I understand, many Christians don't expect God to respond, or at least I don't think they're listening in the right way. I believe He does answer, just everyone seems to be expecting him to literally speak to them.

I know His response. He waves a shiny golden ball of light in front of me, in my dreams, (representation of Him which I've currently forgotten the name since it's a Hebrew word) and then He snatches it away. stare  

[CuAnnan]

kage no neko

If the Norse and Egyptian and Greek etc gods are willing/able to respond..
What about the Christian God?

From what I understand, many Christians don't expect God to respond, or at least I don't think they're listening in the right way. I believe He does answer, just everyone seems to be expecting him to literally speak to them.

Depending on what the God of the Christians is, I've had responses to be proxied.
Mostly in the form of "I'm genuinely sorry you don't understand, but it's not like that".  

[kage no neko]

TCD: Really? gonk

CuAnnan: Ah. What/who is the proxy though?



New stupid question.
Some nights, my boyfriend gets this blob that comes and rests on him and helps him cool off. I see it as a clearish blob, like how you can see heat off of a car, that strange clearness. He said it feels like it's just stealing heat, no energy, and he has no problem with it at all.
Last night I decided to poke it. It was very cold and felt like a cobweb, and I got the impression it bit me or something, because I saw a spark and felt a zap go up my finger.
What could it be?  

[TeaDidikai]

kage no neko

What about the Christian God?

What about it?

True Colours of Destiny

I know His response. He waves a shiny golden ball of light in front of me, in my dreams, (representation of Him which I've currently forgotten the name since it's a Hebrew word) and then He snatches it away. stare

YHVH. ~smirk~

kage no neko

Some nights, my boyfriend gets this blob that comes and rests on him and helps him cool off. I see it as a clearish blob, like how you can see heat off of a car, that strange clearness. He said it feels like it's just stealing heat, no energy, and he has no problem with it at all.
Last night I decided to poke it. It was very cold and felt like a cobweb, and I got the impression it bit me or something, because I saw a spark and felt a zap go up my finger.
What could it be?

Not enough data.

Anything I could suggest would be a shot in the dark.