Worst Things You Can Ever Say As A Pagan

[Lance Kibagari]

Brass Bell Doll

Shearaha

It's similar to the issue with teenie boppers who use the title of Wicca. Except that real druids don't exist anymore and so can not defend themselves.

I have less issue with those who call themselves Wiccan as well, because not all Wiccan's feel that those young pagans are wrong for using the title.

Morgandria and Scorplett (the two lineaged Wiccans on Gaia that I know of) do have an issue with non-Wiccans calling themselves such; I imagine quite a few initiated, lineaged Wiccans have a problem with it as well, mainly because it's part of their religion's laws that they MUST defend their faith from outsiders who would seek to harm it.

"Outsiders who would seek to harm it" include fluffy neo-pagans misappropriating the word 'Wicca' because this colors society's view of the religion to something it isn't: a do-it-yourself nature-based religion. Silver Ravenwolf is a prime example of someone who has harmed Wicca in this manner.  

[Calelith]

As you were, I was

This was found in a guild:

Quote:

may the lord and lady smile upon you all. i'm turning 22 in a couple weeks and i follow in the footsteps of over 70 generations of my ancestors as a demon hunter. i started training in the craft and the ancient arcane arts at the age of 3 and started practicing on my own around the age of 10. i was posessed by a demon as a small child (around 4-5 years old) and it was sealed within me by my great grandmother who was also my teacher (may her soul rest in peace). i've reached an arrangement of sorts with the demon and have shared my body with him for about 16-17 years now. he has become my greatest ally and tool in what i do. i have over 70 generations of knowledge in the craft, ancient arcane arts, lore and especially demon lore that i'm willing to share most of. although there's alot of knowledge that i will only pass on to my children whenever that comes around (hopefully not soon). i have also trained with sword, shield, dagger and many other bladed weapons since age 5. it's a great way to focus yourself so you can train yourself better in the craft and the arts. other than that. HI ALL!

As I am, you will be

 

[Brass Bell Doll]

Lance Kibagari

Morgandria and Scorplett (the two lineaged Wiccans on Gaia that I know of) do have an issue with non-Wiccans calling themselves such;

I understand their feelings on the matter. I also understand the feelings of other Wiccans. In the end, I think this is about a difference of opinion in how one upholds their oaths. Other lineaged Wiccans feel that upholding their oaths when defending the craft involves making a distinction between the form of Wicca they practice and that which others practice.

My impression, having spoken to two Witch Queens on the matter is that they observed a change amongst the Wicca and in the pagan community in general over the last forty years or so, that as a result, Wicca changed. They feel that protecting the Craft is to be found in helping others understand the difference. While I feel it would be highly inappropriate for any of us to tell any Wiccan how to uphold their oath, I also feel it is a misrepresentation to ignore or hide the other opinions amongst Wiccans in regard to who may be called Wiccan.

Lance Kibagari

I imagine quite a few initiated, lineaged Wiccans have a problem with it as well, mainly because it's part of their religion's laws that they MUST defend their faith from outsiders who would seek to harm it.

I am aware that other Wiccans hold that opinion, and I would never say otherwise.

Lance Kibagari

"Outsiders who would seek to harm it" include fluffy neo-pagans misappropriating the word 'Wicca' because this colors society's view of the religion to something it isn't: a do-it-yourself nature-based religion. Silver Ravenwolf is a prime example of someone who has harmed Wicca in this manner.

I often wonder how much harm is actually done to Wicca by people like Silver Ravenwolf.

Even if we ignore the words of Craft Elders who were Mastered by the Lord and Lady before the Priestesses you named were conceived, at best the "harm" being done is that they are muddying the waters.

The challenge in being a Seeker has changed in the digital age. Searching for a coven can now be as simple as making a yahoo account. Instead of a lack of information, we have an overabundance- some of which is not accurate.

Anything beyond confusion in the early stages of Seeking seems to have less to do with harming the religion itself and a good deal more to do with people harming people- which I do not feel should be blamed on the religion.

In the end, I fully support a Wiccan upholding their oath in either fashion, but I do not feel we should censor the truth about how Wiccan's feel this should be done in order to manipulate the perception of those who are not initiated into thinking there is only one stance.

If the issue is that muddying the waters means a Seeker will have to unlearn information when they find a lineaged coven, then I feel the unlearning of a hard stance in this matter is just as inconvenient and full disclosure should be given.  

[Shearaha]

Brass Bell Doll

Shearaha

But they are steeling a title, one that belonge to a once very important social class among the Gael.

I'm afraid I disagree for a couple of reasons. Since the Gael are Irish, I think to steal from them they would have to be stealing an Irish word. Druid is not an Irish word.

The second issue I see is that the Irish are not the only Celts, so if this is about the rights of the Gael, then why would we give the right to dictate what is proper in all of Celtic culture to one group? Why would the Irish be in a position to speak for all Celts everywhere?

The Irish are not in a position to speak for all Celts, but it is their closed culture that is being used as the base for most of the self titiled Druids. I do not know the entymology of the word so I can not say where it came from, but my understanding was that it is the romanization of the title held by the men I described.

Brass Bell Doll

Shearaha

There are also those who claim to be decendents of druids and parctice based off of an old book, which they can never produce, that was written by their ancestor before they were killed by the Romans or the Christian invaders who followed. The issue comes form those who are taking a title from a culture and using it outside of context.

I am afraid I must again disagree. I feel the real issue with people who make a claim like that is that they aren't telling the truth. If they are saying falsehoods in order to make themselves seem special- then would they be any less annoying if they claimed to be any other kind of ancient line of mystics long since gone?

Nope, and I have similar issues with tose people as well, except that they aren't taking from an existing closed culture. It's still, in my eyes, culture rape.

Brass Bell Doll

Shearaha

It's similar to the issue with teenie boppers who use the title of Wicca. Except that real druids don't exist anymore and so can not defend themselves.

I have less issue with those who call themselves Wiccan as well, because not all Wiccan's feel that those young pagans are wrong for using the title.

I'm aware that there are Wiccans who don't have an issue with this as well, but for me it still comes back to a theft of title. I know Doctors that don't have a problem with herbalists calling themselves doctors, but the herbalist never went through med school, never passed the board exam, and is not licensed to practice medicine. There is no denying that the herbalist is skilled, and they may be licensed in herbcraft, but they still aren't a doctor. Do you get what I'm saying?  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Shearaha

The Irish are not in a position to speak for all Celts, but it is their closed culture that is being used as the base for most of the self titiled Druids. I do not know the entymology of the word so I can not say where it came from, but my understanding was that it is the romanization of the title held by the men I described.

If you feel that the Irish are targets of misappropriation, then I think it would be more precise to take issue with the misappropriation from the culture itself. In this I think we would need to accept that not all of their world view comes from the Irish, and not comment on that which is not Irish- such as the word Druid.

I think that because the Celts spanned from Asia Minor to the Atlantic Ocean thousands of years ago, we must examine in detail if the title Druid is truly being misappropriated. If my etymology dictionary is correct, the Old Irish word was drui, and the Modern Irish word is draoi. If I am reading it correctly, the use of the D is actually a part of Gaulish dialects.

Because of this, I feel that a subculture on this forum has developed that is not evaluating the history behind the claims being made. While I am open to reviewing evidence that would refute my source, I feel that more evidence is needed to support your position in order to persuade me to agree with you.

Shearaha

Nope, and I have similar issues with tose people as well, except that they aren't taking from an existing closed culture. It's still, in my eyes, culture rape.

While I feel that some may be engaging in misappropriation, I feel that more research is needed in order to establish which parts qualify as misappropriation.

If we do not take these steps, we may end up repeating equally flawed information.

Shearaha

I'm aware that there are Wiccans who don't have an issue with this as well, but for me it still comes back to a theft of title. I know Doctors that don't have a problem with herbalists calling themselves doctors, but the herbalist never went through med school, never passed the board exam, and is not licensed to practice medicine. There is no denying that the herbalist is skilled, and they may be licensed in herbcraft, but they still aren't a doctor. Do you get what I'm saying?

I understand what you are saying, but I feel that there is a problem in your reasoning. If an herbalist is a doctor- that they have earned their PHD in Herbalism, then by that reasoning, they are doctors. While there will always be MDs who will say that those Herbalists who have their PHD's aren't welcome to be counted as medical professionals, that does not change their nature as Doctors, nor does it mean that those Herbalists are "stealing the title" of doctor. They have earned it, even if they did not earn the same degree that a MD has.

In this analogy, the Herbalist who has their PHD and is board certified in my state are people who MDs address as doctors, but would never say that they are MDs, and neither would the Herbalist claim to be an MD. There are Snake Oil Salesmen claiming to be Doctors- who have no doctorate, those are people that both the Herbalist and the MDs will say are not Doctors.

My question would be this- if the title of Doctor is being acknowledged by MD's as extending to the Herbalist who has a PHD, if the MD is actually calling the Herbalist "Dr. Smith", are they "stealing" the title or are they being given the title amongst controversy because some MDs disagree with others?

Are we in a position to tell Priests and Priestesses who have earned their position though decades and decades of service to their gods that they are wrong because another Priest or Priestess disagrees?  

[Shearaha]

I concede the first 2 points.

But on the third you are assuming that the herbalist has a PHD. In my state there is no PHD for herbalisim, the accredation is equal to pharmacy. People don't call pharmacists doctors yet there are herbalists that do call themselves doctor.
They aren't necessarily steeling the title, but they are advertising themselves as doctors when they aren't.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Shearaha

I concede the first 2 points.

But on the third you are assuming that the herbalist has a PHD. In my state there is no PHD for herbalisim, the accredation is equal to pharmacy. People don't call pharmacists doctors yet there are herbalists that do call themselves doctor.
They aren't necessarily steeling the title, but they are advertising themselves as doctors when they aren't.

I feel there is a misunderstanding. I am not assuming that the Herbalist has a PHD, I am stating that a given Herbalist has a PHD. I am sure there are Herbalists who do not have a PHD, who may claim such- and in a case similar to the points mentioned above, the misappropriation is the issue, the lies are the issue- not what one is being called.

Those Wiccans who call non-lineaged people Wiccan have standards. To use the analogy, those MDs acknowledge that an Herbalist with a PHD is a Doctor. They would not say the PHD Herbalist is an MD, but they also do not consider a person who does not have a PHD to be a Doctor.

The Herbalist who has a PHD is not falsely advertising if they call themselves Dr. Smith. I am sure that there would be deep umbrage taken if a non-lineaged person who is called Wiccan by those with lineage were to suddenly claim that they were a specific lineaged tradition.

I also think there might be a small misunderstanding as to what one can do in order to have an accredited doctorate in the field of Herbal medicine, but having said that- on a federal level, there is an organization that vets complementary and alternative medicine. Having said that, I think it isn't really relevant because this is an analogy. I also feel the counter example regarding a pharmacist is mistaken. If the Pharmacist is a doctor, their current occupation does not change their nature as someone who has earned their doctorate.

The Herbalist who has a PhD and calls themselves a Doctor, without claiming to be an MD is neither stealing the title, nor are they falsely advertising themselves as something they are not.  

[Shearaha]

I do see your point. I guess I'm just coming from a different angle. I think that most people see Dr. in front of someones name they assume that the person is a medical doctor. I may be underestimating the population but that is what I see the most of. That is where the misinformation comes from. Is it the individual PHD who has chosen to use Dr. infront of thier name instead of PHD after? Not really, but it does muddy the waters.

Do you see where I'm coming from on this? In the analogy I used it's not a misapproiation, but a lack of knowledge on the part of the public, and lack of clarification on the part of the PHD.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Shearaha

I do see your point. I guess I'm just coming from a different angle. I think that most people see Dr. in front of someones name they assume that the person is a medical doctor. I may be underestimating the population but that is what I see the most of. That is where the misinformation comes from. Is it the individual PHD who has chosen to use Dr. infront of thier name instead of PHD after? Not really, but it does muddy the waters.

Do you see where I'm coming from on this? In the analogy I used it's not a misapproiation, but a lack of knowledge on the part of the public, and lack of clarification on the part of the PHD.

I understand where you are coming from and I completely agree that most people think of an MD when they think of "Doctor". I think that unless you are in academia seeing Dr. as a title is unusual.

I feel that better education about Wicca is very needed. I also feel that people should fully explore what Wicca is before they dive in head first.

I would like to see authors explain that lineaged traditions exist- and I would like to see them explain why some members would not honor their use of the word Wicca to describe themselves. I would also like them to explain why others from lineaged traditions would apply it- what makes them different from any kind of eclectic neo-pagan.  

[Shearaha]

I think what we have here is an agreement on the problem but not the solution.

I think that if a title, like Wicca, is already used by one group then it should only be used by that group, because even if the 2 groups have some things in common they are not the same and having the same title or label for 2 different things makes it difficult to know what a title holder really does or is.

So I feel that only MDs, DDSs, and DVMs should be able to use Dr. in front of thier name and those with academic doctorats should have to use PHD after their names to avoid confusion when the 2 fields overlap, and you feel that they should both be able to use Dr. infront of their name and require more questioning on the part of the general populace. Right?  

[rmcdra]

Quote:

Not all religions have a concept of sin. That's reserved for the Abrahamic religions. neutral

Bullshit. There are plenty of taboos that one can commit in other religions. Also Greek and Norse Gods aren't too keen on hubris last time I checked.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

rmcdra

Quote:

Not all religions have a concept of sin. That's reserved for the Abrahamic religions. neutral

Bullshit. There are plenty of taboos that one can commit in other religions. Also Greek and Norse Gods aren't too keen on hubris last time I checked.

I haven't heard anything about the Norse gods on the matter.  

[rmcdra]

Brass Bell Doll

rmcdra

Quote:

Not all religions have a concept of sin. That's reserved for the Abrahamic religions. neutral

Bullshit. There are plenty of taboos that one can commit in other religions. Also Greek and Norse Gods aren't too keen on hubris last time I checked.

I haven't heard anything about the Norse gods on the matter.

I could be mistaken but I thought hubris was something that most Gods frowned upon. If the Norse Gods don't then I'll retract that claim.  

[Bastemhet]

rmcdra

Quote:

Not all religions have a concept of sin. That's reserved for the Abrahamic religions. neutral

Bullshit. There are plenty of taboos that one can commit in other religions. Also Greek and Norse Gods aren't too keen on hubris last time I checked.

Are you defining sin here as merely a taboo? I thought there would be more to it than that.  

[rmcdra]

Bastemhet

rmcdra

Quote:

Not all religions have a concept of sin. That's reserved for the Abrahamic religions. neutral

Bullshit. There are plenty of taboos that one can commit in other religions. Also Greek and Norse Gods aren't too keen on hubris last time I checked.

Are you defining sin here as merely a taboo? I thought there would be more to it than that.

It seems that I have misused the word here taboo here. Sin would mean transgression against a moral or divine law. Don't other Gods and other cultures have morals and divine laws to obey? Why would it be inappropriate to describe these as sins?